Author Topic: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?  (Read 57866 times)

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Who is to say that your objective isn't to get to Capella through the back door? The Knossos network was connected at one point in time.
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Offline Trivial Psychic

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I don't recall any indication that you can connect one Knossos to another.  The only option I can forsee, is to use the N362 Knossos, and assume that if you backtrack a few systems you can find your way into the FS2 nebula from there.  After all, in FS1 the Shivans came from somewhere, and where else than through the N362 Knossos.  If that is the assumption, then somehow this area of space must connect through Shivan space to the Nebula, and by extension, Capella.  That leaves the question of who let them in though N362 in the first place, but that doesn't take much imagination *cough*GTI*cough*.
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Offline Mito [PL]

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
As expected.

This would make sense...except if they could do that, they could hit a lot of other, softer targets (like Lopez or Leinonen), disrupt Steele's well-laid plans, and throw him off-balance considerably. And yet, there's no evidence of this in Tenebra. I'm not sure if they had the equipment or information to do that. It's clear some long-range communications are taking place, but is that because the Fedayeen have the capability to transmit, or because they are receiving transmissions from those who do?

Lopez was been "used" by UEF twice, and both successful attempts did not require Fedayeen mocking with her (at least we know of none). Those were simple strategies, which used her personal flaws.
The point here is simple: if you would take control of a vessel's captain and forced him/her to disobey an order from the Admiral (we need to remember that Steele gives the orders and any Tev commanding officer in Sol is just following them, not running on their own), you would most likely cause a mutiny (I doubt that one man could oppose entire crew, consider that they also aren't mindless pawns) or marking the vessel as traitor and destroying it by Tevs. But remember that Steele has a pretty large amount of assets already in Sol, and he still receives a constant flow of them from the GTVA. Losing several units would barely slow him down, as shown twice in Act 3 (first mission and HFH). Yes, there was a possibility of actually winning the war by UEF in Delenda Est, but there the loss of a destroyer-sized asset wouldn't force Steele to back down - it would be the political disappointment of the rest of GTVA, probably showing him making even worse mistake than Severanti did.
We also need to remember that, if the Fedayeen are behind Steele's visions, the only piece of equipment to cause them would be Cassie. While it is simply amazing, it has its own limitations for sure - and since Fedayeen seem to use it rather extensively, there might not be much resources remaining to torment people in their sleep - so they just point them at the most valuable target they can.
And I wouldn't call this a long-range communication. From what we know of Nagari, we can tell that it is a way of communicating without any distance degrading it anyhow. Something like means of coordinating a multi-galaxy wide empire (Brahmans? Shivans? Vishnans?) without any lag. And since Steele is inside Sol all the time, Fedayeen may be using something far less advanced against him. Heck, they might be doing it accidentally, without knowing it.

By the way, the only long-range (meaning to/from outside Sol) comms having place in Fedayeen Dreamscape seem to be HoL (but not the Tev crewmen, if they even employ Zods, but rather the survivors of the attack against the Lucifer, which returned to their brethren after AoA), Greenfly Gef cell, some funky funky stuff if Laporte decides to go behind those firewalls and, of course, UT2 - but thanks to special transmitter created especially for that opportunity. Besides that Dreamscape seems to be confined only to Sol itself.

Not sure if I buy the entire Solaris crew being influenced. Putting that aside, the plan sounds insane. If Steele had a half dozen Mjolnirs for station defense, it's safe to say that the Tevs would throw up node blockades every step of the way. How many Mjolnir hits can a Murugan take, even if they took over the project from the Jovians? And how useful would the Sanctuary, a destroyer with Great War technology, be as a military asset? Even with an overwhelming force -- the remnants of the 14th, most of First Home Fleet, and maybe a Murugan or two -- it's hard to say they'd put up much of a fight against the rest of the GTVA fleet. They'd have to plow through at least two battlegroups -- assuming Steele or the 19th doesn't give chase -- to get to N362 to do...what? There's no solid proof the Vishnans are there, or that the system is special to them. Why go to N362 to do something you could do at Earth?
First, remember what an Oculus can do to Tev beams. Anyone who seen it in action (Aristea, Delenda Est, Her Finest Hour) should agree that someting like that would cause serious problems to Tev armament. Especially if we get to mount a lot of this stuff onto bigger ships.
Second, the Sanctuary was in hands of First Fleet for over 18 months. That's more than enough time to make at least a partial refit (which should be easy since UEF tech seems to be pretty compatible)... or disassemble the vessel for supplies (to build something else).
Third, an insane plan is the best plan, especially when the enemy is blocking you from using any sane plans. I think Phantom Hoover explained this well in his post, and with Shambala providing muscle/speed/other to punch through to N362... it might work.
<What if Shambala is just a pocket Knossos with the ability to be aimed at any star system? So that there is no need for a brutal push?>
Why N362? Because Knossos. It's been there in an alternate reality (or not exactly), with a half of 14th BG using it, and its presence there in our realm has been confirmed in GH files, with GTVI considering a scouting run using MORPHEUS countermeasures. It seems that both sides are sure that Vishnans are on the other side.
Why move and not do it on Earth? Probably because thin resources. Remember what the Fedayeen needed to push Laporte into Nagari? A comm device, the Idun's Dictionary, CASSANDRA and someone on the "other side" to help with a temporary transfer. How many of those do Elders have? The comm device design was been given to Laporte by some HoL agent, and if someone there actually went through her personal files to find it, that would be Fedayeen for sure. If a copy of the Dictionary was all the time in Council's hands, Fedayeen may have had a chance of obtaining it from them, not from Jovian gas platform. And there seems to be only one Cassie in existance. And Vishnans do not seem being eager to help with that.
<What if Shambala needs to do *something* really close to Vishnan "bodies"... and they are going to order a cull because of fear of *this* happening?>
How do you kill a hydra?

You starve it to death.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
As far as going to Capella, well...

"He wait in the cooling ruin, for a daughter made out of war."

Might relate to Universal Truth, might not.

  
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
As far as going to Capella, well...

"He wait in the cooling ruin, for a daughter made out of war."

Might relate to Universal Truth, might not.

Well, we did meet him in Nagari Representation of the Capellan Black Hole/Transabyssal Gate.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
All great speculations, but I have to admit the authors were indeed able to keep everything under wraps pretty well so far.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
As far as going to Capella, well...

"He wait in the cooling ruin, for a daughter made out of war."

Might relate to Universal Truth, might not.

Well, we did meet him in Nagari Representation of the Capellan Black Hole/Transabyssal Gate.

Yeah, exactly. But it could also mean physically meet (as his alternate-reality counterpart does in Morrigan in Shadow).

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Throwing a silly cool idea that came to mind:

What if Shamballa is indeed a Nagari weapon of some sort (I'll be loose on any detail), that forces everyone important to be present within Nagarispace and that the whole mission be played in that very space, fighting TEVs inside this virutal spirit world?

Rules could be completely different. Partial winstates could relate to certain objectives that would be irrelevant in "realspace", but here are absolutely important. Rules could be both quite logical and understood and yet quite novel and original, almost abstract-like. The territory and its aspects could become surreal and ever changing, making it the tripiest mission ever.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I know that Nagari is non-local. But the Fedayeen don't seem to be able to make a connection outside of their own Nagari LAN (the Dreamscape). It takes Laporte's schematics for them to build an ETAK device, as you said. The Idun Dictionary seems to only be necessary to decode Shivan/Vishnan transmissions. So there's nothing really stopping the Fedayeen from doing Nagari shenanigans after UT2, but before then they don't have what they need.

Shambhala as a means to move the battlespace to Nagari is plausible, but if the Fedayeen needed the HoL (via Laporte) to get the ETAK schematics, where would the Elders have gotten them?

Refitting the Sanctuary makes sense. And I'll admit that pushing through to N362 is doable (though would still be difficult -- The Feds have trouble downing one destroyer, let alone three). But why are people so sure that the Vishnans are past the N362 Knossos in the main universe? The Tevs haven't done any recon; they just figure they (or the Shivans) are there because they were there in another universe and the Knossos was last activated 50 years ago. That's pretty thin evidence. And it seems out of character for Byrne and the Elders to risk a huge force on a hunch.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I don't even understand what exactly this rushing through N362 even accomplishes. Although it would be fun, a bit like Bosch's own run through GTVA space into the nebula but now played from "the other side". How much can you sacrifice? How many friends are you ready to let be killed? Are your loss calculations correct? Are you losing too many people while being harassed from every possible angle? Crazy full blown chessboard gambit in order to have that single pawn into the last row.

Thing is, I just don't see what that engame looks like. Vishnans be like:

"wtf is wrong with you? we shut off comms with you, why would you even come here for?"

"you mean we sacrificed hundreds of thousands of people, all of our fleet in order for some handful of cruisers or fighters reach you and this is all you have for us?"

"what did you expect? That us would solve all of your horrendous issues? gtfo our lawn already. Helmsman, target their cruiser, let our aspects fly..."

"but waaaait!"

"no more talking"

 

Offline Damage

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
That is a dilemma for me as well.  Every scenario I run through my head ends "Well, we're here, now what?"

COLDMORN seemed to feel there might not be anything to be found.  Village People thought otherwise.

I have to imagine there's at least a watchful eye on the Knossos in N362.  Would it be just a huge surprise if it turned out to be Shivan and not Vishnan?
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Like I said, while the N362 endrun idea is pretty fun I'm aware it has various issues and, more importantly, clashes with the (much better supported) endrun to Capella.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
How exactly would there BE an end-run to Capella, given that all of the jump nodes were severed back in FS2? It'd require the UEF to know the exact location of a dormant Knossos portal in GTVA space that leads to Capella, which assumes that such a portal even exists, and that it would even still work in a system that recently went supernova.

Besides, the name Shambhala--and the various hints we've received about it so far--indicate that it is nothing so conventional as a blockade run through GTVA space. It's almost certainly Nagari-related, a massive construction, and intended to be deployed/activated within Sol.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
The Capella endrun scenario is— look, have you read Morrigan in Shadow?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
The thing about Shambhala being a massive construction - a ship or installation or etc. - is that I always think that more people would know what it is (at least having some kind of idea), Steele would probably know where it is if not what it is, and it would have been a factor in the Blitz when everything in Earth orbot was hit by the Tevs.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
The thing about Shambhala being a massive construction - a ship or installation or etc. - is that I always think that more people would know what it is (at least having some kind of idea), Steele would probably know where it is if not what it is, and it would have been a factor in the Blitz when everything in Earth orbot was hit by the Tevs.

The Shamhala's most likely location is somewhere near Mercury, which, I believe, was described by developers as one of the most heavily fortified region in Sol (due to its antimatter factories).

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
The thing about Shambhala being a massive construction - a ship or installation or etc. - is that I always think that more people would know what it is (at least having some kind of idea), Steele would probably know where it is if not what it is, and it would have been a factor in the Blitz when everything in Earth orbot was hit by the Tevs.

The Shamhala's most likely location is somewhere near Mercury, which, I believe, was described by developers as one of the most heavily fortified region in Sol (due to its antimatter factories).

Ugh, of course! I honestly forgot that there's planets in the 'inner system' beyond Earth. Egg on face. I am Admiral Cyrus Severanti.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 08:56:00 pm by Azrael15 »

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Thinking about Shambhala, I have a feeling it's something to do with subspace and nodes.

What we know about it is that it's an answer to the threat of Shivans rebuilding nodes, would end the war and do it without sacrificing Ubuntu morals. However, Henriksson found it terrible enough that she would willingly defect to the GTVA.

My thought is that it's a subspace weapon that utterly collapses nodes past the point of repair. We've seen nodes destabilised by capital ship destruction, but we've never seen them utterly erased. The Shivans, for example, can travel through unstable ones or have the capability to restore them (Knossos, Sathanas, etc). An important thing to note may be the Capella 'transabyssal gate' but I feel fairly safe in assuming that it was not a regular jump node, nor a replacement for them.

It eliminates the threat of nodes being restored by wiping them from existence and then propagates down the whole node network. It would end the war by denying the Tevs their logistics and by making the greater war pointless. It would, in essence, turn every star system into a singular entity much like how the Federation exists - which means Ubuntu is probably fine with it as its a nice pluralistic solution. However, the GTVA systems probably depend on vast amounts of trade between nodes which would reflect the gamble with billions that Henriksson speaks of. Byrne's fleet is kept back so that, when this goes through, he can sweep up the Tevs that are left.

I have no idea how this fits into the Vishnan stuff, however. But I'm also not convinced it's a sudden upload device or anything like that. This is because what we've seen of the Nagari network is a pretty terrifying, hostile place where momentary safe spots exist amidst a dark and terrifying sea. It's a place where the reality and consciousness devouring Great Darkness "stalks the cold roads" and it's a place where the Transcendent seems to want to home in on you so he/it can find you and "eats your soul" (to quote FRED). It's not a place where you want to shove people into, really!

edit: Also, it's interesting that Shambhala apparently was the birth place of Kalki (Kalki being the new name for the SJ Dante, IIRC).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 11:47:36 pm by Azrael15 »

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Here's my theory:

Shambhala is a way to control Shivan activity. It's a way of uploading instructions to the Nagari network. The UEF thinks they have a way to hack the Shivans. Laporte and the Fedayeen have the hardware.

Supporting facts from BP:

Ken talks about an external heuristic injection, when describing the Shivans. Laporte asks "What's external to the Shivans?" Why, I'm glad you asked, Laporte! It's Shambhala.

Ken also explains the nature of Nagari, being "Electronic warfare visited upon the neuron". At one point, he even tells Laporte "All systems can be compromised". Does that include Shivan neurological systems? Especially since the UEF & Fedayeen have a live specimen?

Henrikkson describes Shambhala as a gamble with the lives of billions. Pissing off the Shivans through a failed hacking attempt seems like the fastest way possible in the BP universe to kill billions of people.

Shambhala is described as a way to win without giving up the principles of Ubuntu. But Ubuntu is all-peace, no war. There is no destruction aspect to Ubuntu. Shambhala adds that last terrifying piece of the puzzle, but outsources the nasty bits to some aliens who are really really good at destroying things.

Why is it so incredibly important for MORPHEUS to proceed? Why the GTVA's declaration of total war? What is so horrifying that Steele calls MORPHEUS "a nightmare you don't get to wake up from"? How about the UEF with the Shivans on a leash?

Why does Byrne need all of first fleet, all the defecting GTVA ships, and two anemoi logistics vessels? I haven't quite figured that one out. Maybe they need the computing power. Maybe if the GTVA attacks Earth, they need to be able to flee to some dark corner of the solar system until they complete Shambhala and hack the Shivans. Maybe they just need to build a super-CASSANDRA, because controlling the Shivans will not be done with a Pentium-II laptop.

Henrikkson says that the UEF was aware of the Shivan threat, and that Shambhala was a countermeasure against it. Laporte asks Ken what could destroy the Shivans in the long run, to which he replies "They are godslayers". You cannot beat the Shivans, but you might be able to hack them.

Ken, who is also (not sure how to add spoiler tags, but if you've played it, YOU KNOW WHO KEN IS!!!), had a similar idea of uniting with the Shivans.

And finally, Laporte is an instrument in Ken's design.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 08:54:23 pm by Erebus Alpha »
"Obviously the meson bomb is a form of cat-toast-device, with the buttered toast inverted, so that the cat and toast both fly in the direction of gravity much faster than expected. By introducing artificial gravity, a pair of cat-toast perpetual motion accelerator units can be made to collide with one another, and they produce an unimaginably devastating explosion. Both cats are named 'Meson'."

 - Wikileaks 2383

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Ken talks about an external heuristic injection, when describing the Shivans. Laporte asks "What's external to the Shivans?" Why, I'm glad you asked, Laporte! It's Shambhala.
Except it happens way too early for Shambhala or even a Shambala-precursor to reasonably exist, unless you suppose that GTI knew a hell of a lot more about the Shivans than anyone else thought, before the Great War started; the most obvious candidate is that it was the Vishnans.

Why is it so incredibly important for MORPHEUS to proceed? Why the GTVA's declaration of total war? What is so horrifying that Steele calls MORPHEUS "a nightmare you don't get to wake up from"? How about the UEF with the Shivans on a leash?
It's pretty explicitly stated that the GTVA declared total war because UEF society is heavily Vishnan-influenced (see this quote from the Granite Hunter files):
Quote
Can you get me hard evidence that the Ubuntu project is fundamentally predicated on Threat Two communication? We sold MORPHEUS on the certainty that Ubuntu was compromised. Where is the proof?
(For anyone not already familiar, "Threat Two" is the Tev, or at least Tev Intelligence, term for the Vishnans.)
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