[HLD_Prophecy]

...because controlling the Shivans will not be done with a Pentium-II laptop.

I'm going to quote this. 

Seriously though, great brainwork!

[Rheavatarin]

... controlling the Shivans will not be done with a Pentium-II laptop.

How about a PowerBook 5300? It worked in Independence Day. RISC architecture is gonna change everything.

[Mito [PL]]

Just a random thought about the war.

If you read Fiction -> What is Ubuntu? on blueplanet.hard-light.net, you can find something interesting about the Fedayeen.

[...]In a society built on openness, transparence, and general nonviolence, the function of the Fedayeen is unclear and puzzling. The existence of the Fedayeen was a major aspect of the GTVA's decision to go to war.

Let's think of it. It seems that the existence of the Fedayeen itself seems to be somehow terrifying for Tevs. Quite some people in Sol were exposed to Vishnans, and became Nagari sensitives. Thus, they also became potentially exposed to Shivans... How do you think, does GTVA see Fedayeen as proof for Shivan mockery in the UEF?

And take a look at Laporte's DNI data in Ken mission. Am I the only one to recall Laporte 's joy reading rocketing up out of the scale at some point? Is the Nagari influence somehow... addictive to people? That could explain something, according to one of my theories.

[Darius]

This post does not contribute anything new to this thread. None whatsoever.

This is just to say that this is some high quality thread and to continue the good work!

No new information has been made available. There are no American tanks in Baghdad. Thank you!

[Grizzly]

Just a random thought about the war.

If you read Fiction -> What is Ubuntu? on blueplanet.hard-light.net, you can find something interesting about the Fedayeen.

[...]In a society built on openness, transparence, and general nonviolence, the function of the Fedayeen is unclear and puzzling. The existence of the Fedayeen was a major aspect of the GTVA's decision to go to war.

Let's think of it. It seems that the existence of the Fedayeen itself seems to be somehow terrifying for Tevs. Quite some people in Sol were exposed to Vishnans, and became Nagari sensitives. Thus, they also became potentially exposed to Shivans... How do you think, does GTVA see Fedayeen as proof for Shivan mockery in the UEF?

I think that the angle of psy-warfare is less of an issue here, and more the notion that the Fedayeen are basically a huge red flag. The Fedayeen are an indication that Earth is not as peacefull as advertised, that Earth very much has the power to militarise and dictate terms to the GTVA, and that Earth politics may not be as stable as advertised as the Fedayeen are certainly powerfull enough to interfere with Sol politics. It turns Earth from a extremely powerfull ally to a huge wild card, and the GTVA can not afford another one of those.

[The E]

I think that the angle of psy-warfare is less of an issue here, and more the notion that the Fedayeen are basically a huge red flag. The Fedayeen are an indication that Earth is not as peacefull as advertised, that Earth very much has the power to militarise and dictate terms to the GTVA, and that Earth politics may not be as stable as advertised as the Fedayeen are certainly powerfull enough to interfere with Sol politics. It turns Earth from a extremely powerfull ally to a huge wild card, and the GTVA can not afford another one of those.

The Fedayeen are also an outfit with a lot of very high-powered ressources that is not part of the chain of command and is explicitly empowered to do what they feel is necessary to safeguard the Federation.

[Neptune]

This post does not contribute anything new to this thread. None whatsoever.

This is just to say that this is some high quality thread and to continue the good work!

No new information has been made available. There are no American tanks in Baghdad. Thank you!

I knew I should have been more suspicious when you posted!

I tried searching for the list of the GRANITE HUNTER...codewords? Names? But couldn't find what they stood for. (I wasn't around for the files). So out of the description there - what do we know, and what don't we know?

And the headache is, this black hole needed a half-built battleship for some reason. It's got to be destroyer-scale. Any smaller and they'd just dig up one of the Purusha hulls in storage.

I found this bit particularly interesting. It's going to project a singing space Byrne and subdue the Tevs with song.

[Azrael15]

This post does not contribute anything new to this thread. None whatsoever.

This is just to say that this is some high quality thread and to continue the good work!

No new information has been made available. There are no American tanks in Baghdad. Thank you!

I knew I should have been more suspicious when you posted!

I tried searching for the list of the GRANITE HUNTER...codewords? Names? But couldn't find what they stood for. (I wasn't around for the files). So out of the description there - what do we know, and what don't we know?

And the headache is, this black hole needed a half-built battleship for some reason. It's got to be destroyer-scale. Any smaller and they'd just dig up one of the Purusha hulls in storage.

I found this bit particularly interesting. It's going to project a singing space Byrne and subdue the Tevs with song.

Well, is this ship the entirety of Shambhala or just a component of a larger ensemble? I'd say that Shambhala has to be more than a single ship, so, this thing could be some sort of delivery mechanism?

[EuclidianGeometry]

BULWARK is a military intelligence group that was mentioned in the revamped Purusha techroom file as the group that published the Strategic Intelligence Paper, cornerstone of the nascent UEF Navy. DARK CLOUD is mentioned alongside BULWARK in the Karuna techroom description as providing refinements to the new Karuna design. MIDWINTER is less clear, but ships named Midwinter 5-1 and 5-2 are present in the early missions of Tenebra.

[Neptune]

I'd laugh if we were all off the mark and Shambhala is actually a UEF Pocket-colossus loaded with all sorts of goodies, like beams, shields, active armour, and sprint drives, hence Byrne's need to hoard all the tech that's captured.

I'd say that Shambhala has to be more than a single ship, so, this thing could be some sort of delivery mechanism?

I'd say it's likely it's some kind of delivery mechanism, but it's plausible it's a single ship:

Shambhala is ruled over by Maitreya, the future buddha.

I'm also not sure what the -X suffix in UEX stands for. Similar to the Custos-X? eXperimental?

BULWARK is a military intelligence group that was mentioned in the revamped Purusha techroom file as the group that published the Strategic Intelligence Paper, cornerstone of the nascent UEF Navy. DARK CLOUD is mentioned alongside BULWARK in the Karuna techroom description as providing refinements to the new Karuna design. MIDWINTER is less clear, but ships named Midwinter 5-1 and 5-2 are present in the early missions of Tenebra.

Ahh, thank you. Having not being immersed into the GRANITE HUNTER files what you've mentioned seems to make it a bit clearer that the entry is written by some kind of ranking UEF personnel.



 _{Maybe not quite a relevant question for here, but were these ever implemented into a release, or just put up on the wiki? I downloaded my install not that long ago and my Purusha/Karuna entry doesn't mention anything about it.}

[EuclidianGeometry]

I'd laugh if we were all off the mark and Shambhala is actually a UEF Pocket-colossus loaded with all sorts of goodies, like beams, shields, active armour, and sprint drives, hence Byrne's need to hoard all the tech that's captured.

The thing is that GTVA has at least four Erebuses and perhaps thirty other destroyers to throw at such a problem 

Right now I'm leaning towards the ship-borne delivery mechanism of Nagari, perhaps like the Advent Deliverance Engine of SoASE in function.

[Neptune]

The thing is that GTVA has at least four Erebuses and perhaps thirty other destroyers to throw at such a problem

Hey, I never said that I found Byrne (and his doctrine) to be particularly...competent. 

Right now I'm leaning towards the ship-borne delivery mechanism of Nagari, perhaps like the Advent Deliverance Engine of SoASE in function.

Assuming that's the case - why would it need to be destroyer scale, and why would it specifically need as much Tev tech as possible?

[EuclidianGeometry]

The things that come to mind are:

- Logistical independence (Anemois ho!)
- Meson technology (if they are aiming for alternate dimensional ****ery then this is pretty mandatory. Remember the fluctuations in the 14th's meson reactor in AoA)
- Perhaps computational tech, though maybe the UEF has already surpassed the GTVA in this regard.

[Azrael15]

Assuming that's the case - why would it need to be destroyer scale, and why would it specifically need as much Tev tech as possible?

Not sure about the latter, but it obviously would need to be mobile and to defend itself. But what does it need that it couldn't get from a frigate chassis? Power generation? Flight decks? Bigger guns? Logistics support? Somewhere to cram everything they took from the Agincourt? A huge hull so Byrne can insist "I'm not owned, I'm not owned!"? All of these could be true, really.

Hmm. I'm just going to repost the conversation between Elder Hendrikson and Steele.

ELDER: "The project is called Shambhala. It began twenty years ago, but the final breakthroughs were not made until the 14th Battlegroup defectors brought their expertise to bear."

(Twenty years ago was Capella, right? Did the Elders know? Could the Vishnans have whispered something to them? The expertise from the defectors makes me think of it having something to do with the data they must have gathered during their odyssey beyond time and space. One of the most startling things pre-Capella was the Shivan ability to travel down unstable node paths, which could place the Vishan UEF experiment/plan in jeopardy. But I'm not sure this fits.)

STEELE: "Is it a weapon? A warship? A beam-armed battle group? I need specifics."

ELDER: "Hahaha! How typical, Admiral. What good would a weapon have done us? You must understand that Shambhala is an answer to a problem that predates this war by decades."

(Probably not solely a warship. My assumption is that the problem she mentions is the the existential threat of the Shivans. What problems predated the war by decades?)

STEELE: "Unlike you, Elder, I cannot grasp an entire culture with a few months' study. Make yourself plain."

ELDER: "Shambhala is the Elders' plan to end the war without the exercise of military power. It preserves the principles of Ubuntu while satisfying the messy practical need for victory."

(What would allow the UEF to claim victory without a military offensive? And, at the same time, preserving the humanistic principles of Ubuntu? My take on this scene was that she was more concerned with the people outside Sol than the people inside the system, that she was concerned with Humanity-as-whole and not Humanity-as-UEF.)

She also believes that Shambhala is 'a reprehensible gamble with the lives of billions and possible extinction' and the knowledge she could give to Steele (its location? What it is? A countermeasure?) would win the war for the GTVA. So, it's something of a secret trump card. By the sound of it, it seems like it is something that the Elders and Byrne could roll out and end the war with virtually instantaneously, once it is ready.

To me, it still feels like something that'd affect the nodes and or subspace. I'm not convinced it is a Nagari upload, just because of how she phrases it: preserving Ubuntu while satisfying the need for victory. I don't think running away to the Nagari hellscape seems like it'd preserve the principles of Ubuntu, nor be considered a practical victory. Are the billions being gambled with the people in Sol, or out amongst the GTVA's colonies? Or both?

If you cut the nodes, the GTVA can't bring in its reinforcements nor sustain their logistics umbilical and they collapse (as Simms says back when the Wargods take the Agincourt). The UEF could then conceivably defeat the GTVA forces in Sol and claim victory. But where does the gamble come into it? How does it relate to the Shivans? Why did they start it twenty years ago? Why would just cutting the Serpentis-Sol node again be seen as reprehensible?

[Mito [PL]]

Hah. That's nice.

Maybe not quite a relevant question for here, but were these ever implemented into a release, or just put up on the wiki? I downloaded my install not that long ago and my Purusha/Karuna entry doesn't mention anything about it.

It seems to be a very recent BP Wiki update.

The thing is that GTVA has at least four Erebuses and perhaps thirty other destroyers to throw at such a problem 

Tevs cannot mobilise such a great force against the UEF, as the UEF aren't the Shivans. I'd say that they cannot push more than a couple destroyers into Sol, there were about two mentioned that were already underway to be sortied. GTVA can't leave its systems unprotected in case Shivans come back - and there's a lot of mystical Nagari stuff going on lately which could make them respond to it. In their typical way. Heck, even Shambala might get their attention, and probably GTVI knows of this. Plus, the Sol gate has a pretty low capability of transferring vessels, the limitations of new technology and lack of energy to imitate a "normal" jump node. If the UEF takes control of the Sol side of the node, they could just wreck anything that passes through, and the gate's limitations would make the flow of enemy units really slow. And political reasons - if Carthage would die in Delenda Est, political disapproval could force Tevs to halt their war machine. A similar thing, but on a bit bigger scale might do the same at the "current" BP timeline moment.

ELDER: "The project is called Shambhala. It began twenty years ago, but the final breakthroughs were not made until the 14th Battlegroup defectors brought their expertise to bear."

It's not like UEF didn't know of Nagari before Capella. They seemed to research it even before Sol was stranded in space (GTI had some interesting discoveries like the Idun Dictionary), which could mean they were a bit into Nagari already. They could have got some subspace readings of Capella, detect Shivan Nagari activity from there, or get a "hint" from either Vishnu or Ken (it seems he's got some wide influence - Laporte, some "others", presumably like her, and probably also the Hammer of Light, remember what did one of them give to Laporte?).
What did 14th bring to the project? Well... Possibly meson, beam or/and subspace technology, but also a load of Nagari-sensitives and data from the entire AoA. And one more thing - some say, that it is a war machine, others that it involves a lot of mystic stuff... Since the UEF is already barely standing, I have a suggestion: why not both?

[Azrael15]

ELDER: "The project is called Shambhala. It began twenty years ago, but the final breakthroughs were not made until the 14th Battlegroup defectors brought their expertise to bear."

It's not like UEF didn't know of Nagari before Capella. They seemed to research it even before Sol was stranded in space (GTI had some interesting discoveries like the Idun Dictionary), which could mean they were a bit into Nagari already. They could have got some subspace readings of Capella, detect Shivan Nagari activity from there, or get a "hint" from either Vishnu or Ken (it seems he's got some wide influence - Laporte, some "others", presumably like her, and probably also the Hammer of Light, remember what did one of them give to Laporte?).

Absolutely. There's no doubt they know about Nagari before that time, but what was the catalyst for the Shambhala plan twenty years prior? If we assume it is related to the Shivans, some contingency to handle them, then what exactly? What did the Shivans do during the Second Incursion to catalyze the UEF - thought to be secure and safe - into some huge decades-spanning plan?

Ken wouldn't have spoken to the Elders, I think is safe to assume based on the words of Bei and the Elders throughout WIH.

What did 14th bring to the project? Well... Possibly meson, beam or/and subspace technology, but also a load of Nagari-sensitives and data from the entire AoA. And one more thing - some say, that it is a war machine, others that it involves a lot of mystic stuff... Since the UEF is already barely standing, I have a suggestion: why not both?

The usage of expertise makes me think it was something more ephemeral than technology - knowledge or data.

But what are the principles of Ubuntu? Well, according to the GTVA...

Politically: to maximize free speech, minimize government power, and work behind the scenes through the gradual adjustment of social and economic trends. In the long run, to unite mankind, end armed conflict, and develop new technologies that will allow a return to the stars.

Economically: to use sophisticated models to regulate and maximize the output of the free market, through subtle controls rather than by regulation or intervention.

Socially: to promote understanding, open-mindedness, and peace. To eliminate physical and mental illness through scientific treatment. To establish the equality of all human beings. Most controversially, to promote individual moral autonomy and freedom.

Philosophically: to move mankind towards a state of enlightenment, where human beings will function as a coordinated, competitive/cooperative system in which each individual human is actualized to maximum his or her own output. Every person should, it is believed, have the means, the drive, and the hope to make him or herself better.

Religiously: to allow all faiths to coexist.

Ubuntu relentlessly promotes exploration, discovery, and human creation. The colonization of Io is an example of Ubuntu's devotion to laborious human endeavour.

[niffiwan]

ELDER: "The project is called Shambhala. It began twenty years ago, but the final breakthroughs were not made until the 14th Battlegroup defectors brought their expertise to bear."

It's not like UEF didn't know of Nagari before Capella. They seemed to research it even before Sol was stranded in space (GTI had some interesting discoveries like the Idun Dictionary), which could mean they were a bit into Nagari already. They could have got some subspace readings of Capella, detect Shivan Nagari activity from there, or get a "hint" from either Vishnu or Ken (it seems he's got some wide influence - Laporte, some "others", presumably like her, and probably also the Hammer of Light, remember what did one of them give to Laporte?).

Absolutely. There's no doubt they know about Nagari before that time, but what was the catalyst for the Shambhala plan twenty years prior? If we assume it is related to the Shivans, some contingency to handle them, then what exactly? What did the Shivans do during the Second Incursion to catalyze the UEF - thought to be secure and safe - into some huge decades-spanning plan?

Ken wouldn't have spoken to the Elders, I think is safe to assume based on the words of Bei and the Elders throughout WIH.

Ken met the Shivans, perhaps that event triggered a response from the Vishnans, perhaps part of that response was the Vishnans contacting the Elders & telling that to start Shambhala?

[Azrael15]

ELDER: "The project is called Shambhala. It began twenty years ago, but the final breakthroughs were not made until the 14th Battlegroup defectors brought their expertise to bear."

It's not like UEF didn't know of Nagari before Capella. They seemed to research it even before Sol was stranded in space (GTI had some interesting discoveries like the Idun Dictionary), which could mean they were a bit into Nagari already. They could have got some subspace readings of Capella, detect Shivan Nagari activity from there, or get a "hint" from either Vishnu or Ken (it seems he's got some wide influence - Laporte, some "others", presumably like her, and probably also the Hammer of Light, remember what did one of them give to Laporte?).

Absolutely. There's no doubt they know about Nagari before that time, but what was the catalyst for the Shambhala plan twenty years prior? If we assume it is related to the Shivans, some contingency to handle them, then what exactly? What did the Shivans do during the Second Incursion to catalyze the UEF - thought to be secure and safe - into some huge decades-spanning plan?

Ken wouldn't have spoken to the Elders, I think is safe to assume based on the words of Bei and the Elders throughout WIH.

Ken met the Shivans, perhaps that event triggered a response from the Vishnans, perhaps part of that response was the Vishnans contacting the Elders & telling that to start Shambhala?

I don't think the Vishnans are aware of Ken, though. I think Ken states during Morrigan's mindtrip through time and space that if the Vishnans were to learn about him they would both perish.

[niffiwan]

Sure, but the Vishnan's don't need to know about Ken, they just need to know that the Shivans changed in response to something. i.e. Vishnan behaviour change based on the observed Shivan behaviour, not on what triggered the change in Shivan behaviour.

Is that important, or am I just being pedantic? (probably pedantic )

[Azrael15]

Sure, but the Vishnan's don't need to know about Ken, they just need to know that the Shivans changed in response to something. i.e. Vishnan behaviour change based on the observed Shivan behaviour, not on what triggered the change in Shivan behaviour.

Is that important, or am I just being pedantic? (probably pedantic )

Probably, but I was also thinking that as I made that post, so, you've got a good point. 

I'll admit I'm not so good on the relationship and interactions between the Shivans and Vishnans, however.