Author Topic: Info in a VBB thread I need  (Read 7558 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Info in a VBB thread I need
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Some estimates:

Fenris: 250
Leviathan: 250
Orion: 10000
Arcadia: 30000
Elysium: 100
Argo: 1200
Colossus: 30000
Hecate: 10000
Deimos: 2000 (see Sobek)
Aeolus: 250
Triton: 150
Charybdis: 150
Hippocrates: 1500 (can serve "thousands of patients," plus crew)
Zephyrus: 150 (most of the space would be delegated to deuterium tanks)
Poseidon: 50
Ganymede: 5000
Aten: 150
Mentu: 250
Sobek: 2000 (one of the debriefings say it is 6000 but that is quite inconsistent with the Sobek's size compared to that of the destroyers, so I am just going to disregard that)
Typhon: 10000
Hatshepsut: 10000
Setekh: 150
Isis: 30
Anuket: 150
Satis: 200 (this one would probably have a bit more than the other freighters due to the fact that it is sometimes used as a light cruiser)
Ma'at: 100
Bes: 50


Eylsium and Argo are way too high.
Posiden is a little high.
Aten I think should be 200 given its size.
Setekh is a little high
Ma'at is a little high
Aeolus, Charybdis and Triton are too high

Everything else seems right to me.

Could we get the Crew\Passenger thing on there too?

"For the transports, be sure to include passenger space as well as crew space. In the list I think we should have something like this:

ex.

Argo: C20 P85

C=Crew total
P=Maxium passenger capascity."
Project leader of the Terran Vasudan Imperium Campaign

If you would like to help out with the TVI campaign, send me a private message and I will fill you in with the necessary information.

 

Offline Kazashi

  • 26
Info in a VBB thread I need
In relation to the quoted figure of 6,000 for the corvettes, I could see the Deimos having a maximum capacity in that vicinity. When you compare the Deimos to the Orion you'll notice that the Deimos has a blockier overall shape - if you scale up the Deimos 2.8x so the overall length is equal, you might find it would have a substantually greater volume. The Orion also has to accomodate a fighterbay and room for fighters, plus extra equipment that a fleet flagship would be carrying e.g extra communications equpiment, planetary survey stuff etc. When you consider the modern aircraft carrier and how 5000 sardines are packed onto a 330m ship, again it lends credence that it's certianly not out of reach.

I don't think that the Sobek would have that sort of crew though. It is a smaller vessel in terms of volume, plus Vasudans are physically much bigger than Terrans. I guess one of these days I'll have a play around with incorporating internal decks into a 3D mesh and see just what sort of conditions can be expected.

Something else I thought of, concerning cargo vessels. As karajorma mentoined, in sci-fi (and even IRL) crews of these vessels are small. Why is that the case? Because the more people you have, the more living space and more life support equipment you need. This means less space for cargo - maintaining a high ratio of cargo/overall mass would be quite an important consideration. Otherwise you'd need bigger/more ships. Plus it'd be a waste of personel having dozens of people sitting around doing nothing but watching monitors and playing cards all day.
Blatant advertising #1: Keep the Blood flowing!

Blatant advertising #2: Visit TheDDRZone now!

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Info in a VBB thread I need
Thanks for the suggestions everyone; I will try to address all the issues.

Quote
You know what else'd take up a hell of a lot of space? Water. Even with purifying systems, they'd need at least supplies for a day or two while the rest of the water was being purified. Now how much does a human need to drink per day? Plus washing, cooking, bathing - times 10 000 on a destoryer? That's a lot of water.


Water would indeed be a space-intensive component, but much more so than that would be the deuterium used to power the ship's reactors. In modern-day space shuttles, fuel accounts for over 95% of the total mass. Also, there are probably some sort of water purifying systems for recycling some of the water, and it is likely that water is used much more sparingly onboard one of these ships than it is on a planet.

Quote
Eylsium and Argo are way too high.
Posiden is a little high.
Aten I think should be 200 given its size.
Setekh is a little high
Ma'at is a little high
Aeolus, Charybdis and Triton are too high

Everything else seems right to me.

Could we get the Crew\Passenger thing on there too?

"For the transports, be sure to include passenger space as well as crew space. In the list I think we should have something like this:

ex.

Argo: C20 P85

C=Crew total
P=Maxium passenger capascity."


The Elysium and Argo are indeed too high. I put the Elysium's number at 50, since it is more of a commercial civilian transport than a military vessel and thus has much shorter active periods. (reducing the required supply storage) However, if you put an Argo next to an Orion and compare their proportionate average volumes, combined with the fact that most of the free space in the Argo is used for crew compartments and life support, I think 500 or 600 sounds reasonable.

The Aten's number makes sense, so I will change that one. You are right that the Aeolus is slightly smaller than the other two Terran cruisers, so that has been toned down to 200. Also, I noticed the Mentu is significantly larger than the other GTVA cruisers; I will raise that to 300 or so.

The AWACS ships are essentially the eye of the fleet, tracking enemy ship movements down on radar and sending the information to GTVI. This would probably require lots of personnel to monitor all the sectors and everything. Comparing this with the other ship sizes, I think that while the old numbers were a bit on the high side, 120 or so sounds reasonable.

I halved many of the freighter and gas miner numbers as well. (see below)

Quote
In relation to the quoted figure of 6,000 for the corvettes, I could see the Deimos having a maximum capacity in that vicinity. When you compare the Deimos to the Orion you'll notice that the Deimos has a blockier overall shape - if you scale up the Deimos 2.8x so the overall length is equal, you might find it would have a substantually greater volume. The Orion also has to accomodate a fighterbay and room for fighters, plus extra equipment that a fleet flagship would be carrying e.g extra communications equpiment, planetary survey stuff etc. When you consider the modern aircraft carrier and how 5000 sardines are packed onto a 330m ship, again it lends credence that it's certianly not out of reach.


I tried putting up the Deimos next to the Orion, and all things considered, it looks like at least five or six Deimos corvettes could fit inside the Orion's hull. Add that to the fact that the Deimos is designed as a front-line warship rather than an all-purpose command vessel (therefore having big weapon reactors taking up lots of space), I think the original 2000 sounds about right. The main thing with sea-based ships is that they do not need to carry thousands of tons of rocket fuel as space vessels do, thereby freeing up lots of space, but it does indeed serve to show how many men can be packed into a given space. ;)

Quote
Something else I thought of, concerning cargo vessels. As karajorma mentoined, in sci-fi (and even IRL) crews of these vessels are small. Why is that the case? Because the more people you have, the more living space and more life support equipment you need. This means less space for cargo - maintaining a high ratio of cargo/overall mass would be quite an important consideration. Otherwise you'd need bigger/more ships. Plus it'd be a waste of personel having dozens of people sitting around doing nothing but watching monitors and playing cards all day.


This certainly makes sense, and I have reduced many of the freighters' numbers accordingly. Same goes for the gas miners, since almost all of the space would be used for storing the collected hydrogen. The one exception might be the Satis, which as I said earlier, is often used as a light escort cruiser or a heavy freighter for transporting sensitive materials, so that would have more. (note how it does not have a cargo dock point; the stuff is probably stored inside) Also, while the Triton is by far the largest of the freighters, it is not really intended for battle and is more for moving around very heavy cargo as stated in the tech room.

All these changes have been made to the above list. Regarding the standard/maximum capacity, I have to go at the moment but I will add those in a bit later. If you have any further comments or suggestions, please post them.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2002, 10:38:58 am by 296 »

  
Info in a VBB thread I need
You didnt put in the, for the transports only, the C and P thing that I suggjested. The reason is I'm making a mission were something like the whole crew of an argo is dead or very badly injured and a passenger has to fly it or something. He would give how many passengers are still alive and how many crew are...there etc. And then the mission would get into some more interesting stuff etc.

The point is I need to distingish the crew size from the passenger size.
Project leader of the Terran Vasudan Imperium Campaign

If you would like to help out with the TVI campaign, send me a private message and I will fill you in with the necessary information.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Info in a VBB thread I need
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Water would indeed be a space-intensive component, but much more so than that would be the deuterium used to power the ship's reactors. In modern-day space shuttles, fuel accounts for over 95% of the total mass. Also, there are probably some sort of water purifying systems for recycling some of the water, and it is likely that water is used much more sparingly onboard one of these ships than it is on a planet.

[Snip]

I think the original 2000 sounds about right. The main thing with sea-based ships is that they do not need to carry thousands of tons of rocket fuel as space vessels do, thereby freeing up lots of space, but it does indeed serve to show how many men can be packed into a given space. ;)



Freespace ships run on fusion power which is incredibly efficient. Here's a chance to use my science background and do some quick back of the envelope calculations. [Geek Mode] Scribbles away furiously on a piece of paper and types stuff into a calculator[/Geek mode]
Okay conversion of 1kg of Deuterium into helium gives out the same amount of energy as the space shuttle requires for it's entire launch. The only time a FS2 ship would ever need anywhere near that kind of energy would be in battle (since they don`t need to escape a planets gravity).
 In other words if you could run a destroyer off a single car petrol tank's worth of liquid deuterium.

 I think the best ship to model FS ships on is the nuclear submarine. Like an FS2 ship it doesn`t need to carry much fuel but does need to carry water, food and oxygen for the people on board.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Hippo

  • Darth water-horse
  • 211
  • Grazing.
    • All Hands to War
Info in a VBB thread I need
just a thought, but if the argo can supposedly hold 500 total, and it was docked to a leviathon, that held 250, and they went through the knosos, and snipes got only 17 on the argo, what happened to the other 233 people on the leviathon? theres more than enough room onboard, and more than 17 people were near the docking point, so i still think that theres room for 25-30 people MAX on the argo, because they also carried cargo internaly, and supposedly, from loop1-3, an escape pod...
VBB Survivor -- 387 Posts -- July 3 2001 - April 12 2002
VWBB Survivor -- 100 Posts -- July 10 2002 - July 10 2004

AHTW

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Info in a VBB thread I need
I don`t buy it. The Argo is a troop transport. What's the point in a troop transport that only carries 20-30 people? Do they all have state rooms or something? :)
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
Info in a VBB thread I need
Thats right a troop transport. Which means that there will be very limited space for anything besides the troops.

Just a thought but couldnt the Argo be used as a Drop Ship for a ground assault? The Argo is a TROOP transport after all.

In the FS2 intro you see some dead terran soldeirs in sand. How did they get there?

Answer: Some type of Drop Ship
Project leader of the Terran Vasudan Imperium Campaign

If you would like to help out with the TVI campaign, send me a private message and I will fill you in with the necessary information.

 

Offline Hippo

  • Darth water-horse
  • 211
  • Grazing.
    • All Hands to War
Info in a VBB thread I need
Quote
Originally posted by quadinhonic_II
In the FS2 intro you see some dead terran soldeirs in sand. How did they get there?

Answer: Some type of Drop Ship


theres also a hades in the deneb system crashed on the planet... and from what i know, jotenheim wasn't in deneb, so the people might just be there for effect...

oh, and troops would be in the cargo storage, so they can board ships faster, otherwise you'll get an in mission messege: "Alpha 1, hold off the shivans untill we can wake up the boarding party and give them brunch with tea, ETC; 45 minutes."
« Last Edit: July 13, 2002, 09:32:34 am by 681 »
VBB Survivor -- 387 Posts -- July 3 2001 - April 12 2002
VWBB Survivor -- 100 Posts -- July 10 2002 - July 10 2004

AHTW

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Info in a VBB thread I need
Quote
Originally posted by Hippo
just a thought, but if the argo can supposedly hold 500 total, and it was docked to a leviathon, that held 250, and they went through the knosos, and snipes got only 17 on the argo, what happened to the other 233 people on the leviathon? theres more than enough room onboard, and more than 17 people were near the docking point, so i still think that theres room for 25-30 people MAX on the argo, because they also carried cargo internaly, and supposedly, from loop1-3, an escape pod...


Actually I had another look at that mission and you can`t use it for working out the maximum complement of the argo. The 17 who transfered were the survivors of the shivan attack on the  NTC Alexandria. It's quite possible that the 17 on the argo were all the people left on the Alexandria (or at least those close to the docking point).  
 Furthermore Snipes was a GTI agent and wouldn`t have bothered rescuing NTF crew members. Considering that the NTF were all Earth-Pride Nazi scum anyway do you really think in an emergency that they would wait for the rest of the crew? :)
 I think 500 is a reasonable number for the maximum number of people on board (including marines). The damn ship is more than half the size of a fenris anyway and doesn`t need huge reactors to power it's weapons.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
Info in a VBB thread I need
Quote
Originally posted by Hippo
oh, and troops would be in the cargo storage, so they can board ships faster


Troops in the cargo storage of the argo or another ship? Cause an argo doesnt have cargo storage. Does it?

Argo=troop transport

What else is going to be entering an atmosphere (and landing on the planet) full of marines?
Project leader of the Terran Vasudan Imperium Campaign

If you would like to help out with the TVI campaign, send me a private message and I will fill you in with the necessary information.

 

Offline Kazashi

  • 26
Info in a VBB thread I need
If the Argo's set up as a troop transport then these marines are going to have rather spartan barracks, all piled in on top of each other. Also, troop transports aren't necessarily for long distance travel, so comfort can be further compromised.  It's possible to have 500 troops set up inside something of that size. However, if you're sending troops onto a planet, or to board another vessel, then you're not going to rely soley on troops. For starters you need to keep the guns somewhere - they don't magically appear out of thin air, so you'll need a bit of storage space for those. If you're landing on a planet then you'd include things such as ground vehicles, rovers, tanks, mechs. Depending on the situation space inside the Argo can be modified to include extra seats, or maintenance bays, empty space for cargo such as food drops, construction equipment etc

However (again), it might be entirely possible that the GTVA uses an as yet unseen vehicle specifically for landing troops, and the Argo's little more than a ship-ship/installation transport labelled a troop transport because marines are the only things capable of surviving the flight (like comparing flying as a passenger in a Falcon900 to flying in a C-130). When you actually look at it, it doesn't look terribly aerodynamic....
Blatant advertising #1: Keep the Blood flowing!

Blatant advertising #2: Visit TheDDRZone now!

 

Offline Hippo

  • Darth water-horse
  • 211
  • Grazing.
    • All Hands to War
Info in a VBB thread I need
what i mean to say is, that the argo might have 20-30 people as crew, but the troops could be kept in barraks near the dockpoints...but their not part of the crew, and this thread was about crew sises, they could well hold 500 troops, we just don't know... all we really know about troops, is that an eleysyum can hold atleast 5 people... (from the fs1 movie)
VBB Survivor -- 387 Posts -- July 3 2001 - April 12 2002
VWBB Survivor -- 100 Posts -- July 10 2002 - July 10 2004

AHTW

 

Offline Kazashi

  • 26
Info in a VBB thread I need
Then in that way of looking at it the crew of the Argo could be even less. A few crew to fly it, maintain it, keep the cargo/seating area clean,  command those workers. Then when it's all trooped up add a few extras, who could possibly even be in transit with the platoons as caretakers.

How is it all done in the modern military?
Blatant advertising #1: Keep the Blood flowing!

Blatant advertising #2: Visit TheDDRZone now!

 
Info in a VBB thread I need
Ok do we have a final list that we can all agree on?
Project leader of the Terran Vasudan Imperium Campaign

If you would like to help out with the TVI campaign, send me a private message and I will fill you in with the necessary information.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Info in a VBB thread I need
Just to muddy the waters a little what are the figures for mazimum occupancy? I have a mission set during the fall of Capella where command uses a decomissioned Orion to evacuate refugees. Considering the fact that the people were only going to be on board for a few hours at most and that the ship had already been decomissioned and was therefore largely empty I put the maximum number of people it could carry at 30,000. Anyone here think that's too large or too small?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Kazashi

  • 26
Info in a VBB thread I need
Interesting question. The limiting factors for maximum occupancy would be living space and available resources i.e. could an Orion move enough oxygen and supply enough water and food for 30,000 people. Looking at the Orion, it seems that 10,000 people could live in relative comfort so long as not too much of the internal volume were taken up by uninhabitable space. I think that it might be possible to fit in 30,000 by cramming people into cargo bays and corridors if necessary. For example...

*looks around for any sign of ZylonBane...*

The USS Enterprise (1701-D) has a normal crew compilment of just over 1000. However, in times of emergency it can carry 7,500 people by filling all available quarters (bear in mind that it can fit 4,500 people in living quarters alone) and cargo/shuttlebays. Because there are actual deck layouts that have been drawn up, it shows just how much internal volume is used in everyday practice, and how much is just empty space. Given that an Orion is several times the volume of the Enterprise (and going further back to the aircraft carrier and submarine comparisons - probably closer to a carrier for a flagship-class vessel), it's certainly possible that there is a lot of empty space, even if they take the form of cargo bays during regular practice.

My final answer if that spiel was too much to handle - yes, it could fit 30,000 people at a crunch
Blatant advertising #1: Keep the Blood flowing!

Blatant advertising #2: Visit TheDDRZone now!

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Info in a VBB thread I need
Um.... argo dimensions; 102 / 72 / 171
(whl)
Leviathan / Fenris - 138 / 182 / 235
Aeolus - 70 / 82 / 272

Pretty close.... look at it in FREd2 as well.

Take away the weapons systems for the Fenris' extra turrets, and I'm pretty sure an Argo could take a similar amount of people on board - at leats for the short term.  Remeber an Argo could be used primarily as ship-to-ship transport, so less space is required for food, etc.

 

Offline Hippo

  • Darth water-horse
  • 211
  • Grazing.
    • All Hands to War
Info in a VBB thread I need
EXACTLY! This is what i have been trying to say. Argos don't have large crews, cause they'd need more food, and they are docking to capships all the time, so they could exchange air and food. If they are carring troops, the troops would bring their own supplies, cause they could be told to change ships at any moment...
VBB Survivor -- 387 Posts -- July 3 2001 - April 12 2002
VWBB Survivor -- 100 Posts -- July 10 2002 - July 10 2004

AHTW

 
Info in a VBB thread I need
Think about it, some of these journeys these vessels take are just a few hours or a day or two.

In all these missions would command be making such a big deal about the deaths of 30 civilians when there are 6k people on a Corvette?

Im sure they can cram these people in like sardines in transports.