Author Topic: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...  (Read 6810 times)

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Offline Lorric

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
I guess, then, that nobody is seriously planning a FS1/2:R- just things like Fightermedic's tune-up or "What If". I can rest easy. :P

That said, best of luck to fightermedic on your project!

Yeah, if I ever would try to change FS1/2, I would start with the original campaign file and edit that, since I wouldn't be doing anything major. In FS1, I'd add squads like in FS2 and fix node inconsistencies (basically only changing the briefings). In FS2, I'd change the debrief for "Straight, No Chaser" so the Vasudan doesn't say that there are multiple Juggernauts in the nebula, leaving that for "Into the Lion's Den" for the player to find out.
Another thing which could be done is to make it so wingmen can only carry dumbfires in FS1 in missions where you're not supposed to be able to lock on to the Shivans. You can't do it, but they certainly can.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
The interceptor isn't available until after you get sensor lock on the Shivans. MX50 doesn't even need you to target in order to track.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
The interceptor isn't available until after you get sensor lock on the Shivans. MX50 doesn't even need you to target in order to track.
I guess I'll have to try this in the main campaign to be sure, but I was playing the What If campaign and firing off MX50s and they were just heading off in a straight line, while my wingmen were happily getting locks with them.

EDIT: It might also have been the Phantoms campaign, but I think it was the What If campaign.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
I just tested it. Your MX-50s don't track the Shivans. But your allies' do.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
A remake of FS1 and/or FS2 is welcome but it has to be good and made by professionals. If, over a decade after the release of the games, members of the community decide to go this far and create a remake of :v:'s original campaigns, they can't afford to come out with a fiasco.

I'm not threatening anybody, of course, I'm just saying that such an effort can't be proposed and developed like a mere fan made project. It's much, much more.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
The only thing HLP hasn't already done better than the retail campaigns is the voice acting, and mayyyybe the script.

 

Offline bigchunk1

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
The Colossus overcharged her beams, slagged her heat sinks on every major weapons system and blew her backup power system completely.

She definitely needed a refit after that.

The problem is that the mission doesn't reliably create a situation where this kind of exigency-driven at-all-costs engagement was necessary. If the Sath comes into High Noon with no beams, or if you disable them all very quickly, the Colossus' urgency just comes off as comedy.

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Offline BritishShivans

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
i'm stealing that line for my ****ty campaign that i won't finish making

it belongs to me now

 :pimp:

 

Offline yuezhi

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
Oh really. That quip sounds so axem.
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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
Here is my two cents:

FS1 might need a "reborn" version in the future, because its gameplay lacks in variety, some missions are just dumb (especially the "Exodus"), the ending is a bit rushed and there are some plot inconsistencies here and there. In the end it's still 100 % playable, but only if you don't expect too much.

FS2 is much better, even after almost 15 years. The plot is taken to a new level, the level design is marvellous and the overall gameplay is solid. So it doesn't need a "reborn" or a remake version. However FS2 has some problematic missions. "Their finest hour" is already mentioned here, but the "Proving Grounds" deserves far more attention IMO.

"Proving Grounds" is the only mission that has a literally impossible secondary objective and another one that is extremely hard. I have played this mission countless times, both in FS2 retail and in FSO. Each and every time I end up with frustration. Let's take a closer look:

1) The first secondary objective tells you to defend a Fenris against Pegasus stealth crafts in training mode. Basically you have to shoot these pegagus' until they break off their attacks. It's very irregular how they behave and the "morning star" helps only a little. So far I have completed this objective twice in FS2 retail but not once in FSO.

2) The second secondary objective is the most problematic of them all. You have to destroy a Shivan Moloch named Tiamat before the Aquitaine escapes. This seems to be utterly impossible. I haven't been succesful at this even once, nor has any of my friends managed to complete it. Even if you know exactly where the Tiamat jumps in, it's not enough. The Aquitaine doesn't have enough firepower do destroy it in time, and the player has no weapons that could bring it below 1%.

In addition, it seems that there is a dialog inconsistency, since the command tells you that Molochs beam has taken Aquitaine down to 50 %. In reality, Moloch doesn't really damage the Aquitaine, the bombers do. It seems that at some point Moloch had a LRed in its nose (in the big circular red spot), but it was later removed, probably for immediate game balance reasons.

---

So what the mission "Proving Grounds" needs is that its secondary objectives have to be "reliably achievable". A quick fix would be to lower Tiamats starting HP, but the whole mission probably needs broader overhaul.

With regards to the rest of FS2 campaign, "remastering" would be the word I would use instead of "reborn", if we REALLY want to enhance the overall gameplay experience. Here is what a "remaster" would include:

- Balance tweaks in missions (Clash of the Titans II is so easy that it completes itself, without ANY input from the player)
- Loadout tweaks (I have always wanted to use Infyrno in "Their Finest Hour", because of its awesome anti-cruiser power. No reason to NOT have Infyrno in the loadout)
- Overall small bug fixes
- A slight increase in scale of battle in a couple of missions, now that we have much better computers than in 1999. (High Noon especially deserves more fighter and bomber squadrons, so that Alpha 1 has something to do)

So yeah. This "remaster" version would need no new voice acting, no new briefings etc. It would be only about small changes and a couple of bigger ones (for example "Proving Grounds").

What do you think about this?

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
Here is my two cents:

FS1 might need a "reborn" version in the future, because its gameplay lacks in variety, some missions are just dumb (especially the "Exodus"), the ending is a bit rushed and there are some plot inconsistencies here and there. In the end it's still 100 % playable, but only if you don't expect too much.

How'd you deal with plot inconsistencies? Some may not be considered inconsistencies at all. For example, the absence of beams and flaks in FS1 was justified by Snail (or somebody else, I don't remember), who essentially said that a Shivan ship could not have both beam weapons and intersystem jump drives that don't need nodes. There are many other theories around filling many holes in the FreeSpace timeline, and certain node inconsistencies are explainable by spontaneous jump node collapses. What I'm saying is that once we decide to remake FS1 and take care of all inconsistencies at the same time, we also need to decide how to deal with these issues... and I can ensure you that there will always be someone not agreeing with you. Personally, I'd stick with what we have in FS2 and apply it to FS1, but it's just an opinion I don't expect anyone to accept.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
I've seen that Moloch die before. Unfortunately, I couldn't tell you how to reproduce it. I was just playing the mission normally, so it was dumb luck I guess.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
When playing the mission with ko-op krew the only way we found to kill the Tiamat was mass disarm/disable and then bombarding it with EMP missiles, since the shocks do damage.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
When playing the mission with ko-op krew the only way we found to kill the Tiamat was mass disarm/disable and then bombarding it with EMP missiles, since the shocks do damage.

That's what I did too. Took 20 minutes or so. :P

Actually, I heard the Aquitaine actually does decent damage to the Tiamat if you crank up the difficulties, but I can't say from experience of it actually works.
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Offline BritishShivans

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
The Aquitaine can actually destroy the Tiamat, but you need to be positioned in the right place for it to do so. A lot of it depends on the Aquitaine's first salvo hitting the Tiamat. It usually doesn't occur on lower difficulties for some stupid reason.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...

If you are going to change FS2 at all, I would recommend This. Very minor change that I believe will make a big difference.

Also crossed my mind.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
The Aquitaine can actually destroy the Tiamat, but you need to be positioned in the right place for it to do so. A lot of it depends on the Aquitaine's first salvo hitting the Tiamat. It usually doesn't occur on lower difficulties for some stupid reason.

Perhaps it was intentional, :v: wanted to make that mission objective dependant on random circumstances and not on the player's skills. Pretty much like the Hinton in Rebels & Renegades: sometimes it is destroyed moments after the Vasudans begin their attack, sometimes it is destroyed by the Asar, sometimes it makes it to the end.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
Isn't "random", like, the literal opposite of "intended"?
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
It was intended to be random. :)

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Okay So I Had This Insane Idea...
idk about you but back when i played R&R the hinton pretty consistently survives if you try and protect it (this does often entail making that objective the center of your attention instead of the primary objective, but the point is it can be done).
if you ignore it well, then of course its up to luck/rng if it makes it out
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