[Nakura]

Not sure if I'm trolling my Facebook friends, or merely expressing a valid opinion. Either way, I wasn't hesitant to post this on my wall:

What people, our government especially, fail to understand is that the "drug cartel problem," isn't a problem at all. It's an opportunity, a perfect opportunity. An opportunity to bolster pro-American sentiments in Latin America. We are absolutely more than capable of eliminating every drug cartel in Mexico with minimal American casualties; drones and air strikes (though this would be coupled with a ground component.).

Additionally, we would legalization the drugs that the cartels profit from and focus on rebuilding of Mexico's economy. We could also take this opportunity to purge their government of "corruption" (read: anti-America sympathizers). What do you say we take the fight to them and destroy the cartels once and for all?

Look, our immigration problem is solved as well. Plus we can annex Mexico, which we should have done centuries ago. *Grabs popcorn.*

Edit: C-C-C-Combo Breaker!

[General Battuta]

You probably should've been, your first paragraph is a lie, your second isn't that wrong, your third is dumb.

[Nakura]

You probably should've been, your first paragraph is a lie, your second isn't that wrong, your third is dumb.

The American intelligence community has access to all the information in the world, all they have to do is get their act together and rid themselves of incompetence.

[General Battuta]

If only. You have a naive faith in the structural and operational capabilities of American strategic ISR and (more importantly) our capability to integrate that information into effective policy that's belied by more than a century of foreign policy history.

[Nakura]

If only. You have a naive faith in the structural and operational capabilities of American strategic ISR and (more importantly) our capability to integrate that information into effective policy that's belied by more than a century of foreign policy history.

I am supremely disappointed that we don't have regime change and covert operations down to a science these days. I'm fairly naive, General Battuta, no offensive taken. Most of what I say comes from a philosophical perspective, rather than a practical one. The human element always messes things up, as humans are incompetent, unreliable and prone to error by nature.

[Scotty]

If only. You have a naive faith in the structural and operational capabilities of American strategic ISR and (more importantly) our capability to integrate that information into effective policy that's belied by more than a century of foreign policy history.

I am supremely disappointed that we don't have regime change and covert operations down to a science these days. I'm fairly naive, General Battuta, no offensive taken. Most of what I say comes from a philosophical perspective, rather than a practical one. The human element always messes things up, as humans are incompetent, unreliable and prone to error by nature.

A lot of the problem is that we do have regime change and covert operations down to a science.  The problem, from both a foreign policy and an "Oh God we ****ed it up" standpoint is that we keep using those particular skillsets.

[NeonShivan]

You seem to also be forgetting the global repercussions that can spark from such an action...

[redsniper]

I am supremely disappointed that we don't have

I am supremely disappointed that you're still allowed to post in Gen Disc.

[Grizzly]

What people, our government especially, fail to understand is that the "drug cartel problem," isn't a problem at all. It's an opportunity, a perfect opportunity. An opportunity to bolster pro-American sentiments in Latin America. We are absolutely more than capable of eliminating every drug cartel in Mexico with minimal American casualties; drones and air strikes (though this would be coupled with a ground component.).

Additionally, we would legalization the drugs that the cartels profit from and focus on rebuilding of Mexico's economy. We could also take this opportunity to purge their government of "corruption" (read: anti-America sympathizers). What do you say we take the fight to them and destroy the cartels once and for all?

Ehrm. Hasn't this been going on for the last 10 years or so? Something called a "War on Drugs" which involved drone intelligence gatheirng, ground strikes, and arresting 14 year old teenage girls for prostitution?

Also, I do recall something similar being pulled of a few years back. The Vietnam War?
And something called Iraq? Which descended into Civil war?
And Afghanistan?

---

What makes you believe it will actually work this time?

[redsniper]

What people, our government especially, fail to understand is that the "drug cartel problem," isn't a problem at all. It's an opportunity, a perfect opportunity. An opportunity to bolster pro-American sentiments in Latin America. We are absolutely more than capable of eliminating every drug cartel in Mexico with minimal American casualties; drones and air strikes (though this would be coupled with a ground component.).

Additionally, we would legalization the drugs that the cartels profit from and focus on rebuilding of Mexico's economy. We could also take this opportunity to purge their government of "corruption" (read: anti-America sympathizers). What do you say we take the fight to them and destroy the cartels once and for all?

Ehrm. Hasn't this been going on for the last 10 years or so? Something called a "War on Drugs" which involved drone intelligence gatheirng, ground strikes, and arresting 14 year old teenage girls for prostitution?

No. That's about arresting black people to use prisoners as a de facto slave class.

[Grizzly]

What people, our government especially, fail to understand is that the "drug cartel problem," isn't a problem at all. It's an opportunity, a perfect opportunity. An opportunity to bolster pro-American sentiments in Latin America. We are absolutely more than capable of eliminating every drug cartel in Mexico with minimal American casualties; drones and air strikes (though this would be coupled with a ground component.).

Additionally, we would legalization the drugs that the cartels profit from and focus on rebuilding of Mexico's economy. We could also take this opportunity to purge their government of "corruption" (read: anti-America sympathizers). What do you say we take the fight to them and destroy the cartels once and for all?

Ehrm. Hasn't this been going on for the last 10 years or so? Something called a "War on Drugs" which involved drone intelligence gatheirng, ground strikes, and arresting 14 year old teenage girls for prostitution?

No. That's about arresting black people to use prisoners as a de facto slave class.

Oooooh.

[StarSlayer]

If only. You have a naive faith in the structural and operational capabilities of American strategic ISR and (more importantly) our capability to integrate that information into effective policy that's belied by more than a century of foreign policy history.

I am supremely disappointed that we don't have regime change and covert operations down to a science these days. I'm fairly naive, General Battuta, no offensive taken. Most of what I say comes from a philosophical perspective, rather than a practical one. The human element always messes things up, as humans are incompetent, unreliable and prone to error by nature.

Jesus Christ, are you oblivious to the fact that the majority of the anti American sentiment in the Middle East and South America stems from the fact that we actively practiced regime change in those regions during the Cold War?  That we put in charge whatever tin god asshat we could in so long as he wasn't a fricken Commie?  Seriously look up the Shah of Iran, then look at our relationship today with Iran today.

And if history isn't enough to make this abundantly clear, do you think you would like it if China or the EU decided to do the same thing to the United States?  You think that would engender peaceful warm fuzzy feeling for the foreign power responsible?

[General Battuta]

Yeah, I'm not sure he's aware of where bin Laden and al-Qaeda came from or who trained them, nor of our history of sponsoring out and out slaughter of political opponents (don't watch The Act of Killing if you ever want to feel good about being an American again).

No American program of massive top-down force against a social problem has ever succeeded, because we don't have good maps of how to convert coercive force into successful outcomes. There might not be any effective routes to map at all.

[redsniper]

I am supremely disappointed that we don't have

I am supremely disappointed that you're still allowed to post in Gen Disc.

To elaborate:

Your premise is some of the worst kind of short sighted nationalistic thinking. This comes down to more than just a differences of opinion and belief, because as others have already pointed out we have a great many historical examples of how the US taking such actions has been objectively bad, and in the case of Al Qaeda/bin Laden, directly led to Americans being killed!

But whatever, let's not allow reality and history to stand in the way of your martial fantasies. Please for the love of god, start a war right next door to my state.

[General Battuta]

One of the most striking parts of Dirty Wars occurs on the eve of the war in Afghanistan. The director of the CIA gives a big speech to remind his subordinates of what's important: this is the CIA's chance to secure its place as a cornerstone of American policy and overseas capabilities for the next century.

Of course, maybe his concerns about securing bureaucratic turf were justified. When the CIA kept reporting that Iraq had no WMDs, Rumsfeld froze them out and invented his own intelligence agency within the Pentagon to give him politically useful information. When the CIA was reluctant to carry out assassinations, the Bush and Obama administrations froze them out and moved to create a direct pipeline from the President to JSOC to kill people with less bureaucratic overhead.

[Mars]

So . . . the CIA is to ethical for the CIC? That's kinda ****in scary.

[redsniper]

Yeah, like, why would you want to make it harder to start wars and assassinate people?

[Nakura]

Yeah, I'm not sure he's aware of where bin Laden and al-Qaeda came from or who trained them, nor of our history of sponsoring out and  out slaughter of political opponents (don't watch The Act of Killing if you ever want to feel good about being an American again).

No American program of massive top-down force against a social problem has ever succeeded, because we don't have good maps of how to convert coercive force into successful outcomes. There might not be any effective routes to map at all.

I hope you're joking, Battuta. I'm an international relations major and have taken four college courses on the subject, not to mention have read countless scholarly journals and books about American foreign policy in the 20th century. I know almost every technical detail in the lead-up and execution of both Operation Ajax and the Vietnam War. Are you really so opposed to anyone who dares disagree with you, even slightly (which I haven't even done), that you must instantly jump on a bandwagon on make condescending statements about how I don't know about the coup in Iran or our Vietnam policy?

I'm well aware that a good deal of the anti-American sentiment in the Middle East (and to a lesser extent Latin America, though that is another topic entirely) is caused by Operation Ajax. However, there is little evidence to suggest that the Islamist movement wouldn't have occurred regardless of whether or not we overthrew the government of Iran. Islamic extremism was on the rise well before we overthrew Mossadegh.

The Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist groups started gaining momentum in the early 20th century. These groups spawned the masterminds like Sayyid Qutb, who vehemently opposed the United States and secularism well before any American regime change in the Middle East. This is to say nothing of America's support of Israel, or the fact that the Soviet Union was playing the same game we were, backing anti-American dictators in the region, like Yasser Arafat and Gamal Nasser.

Have I argued in favor of Operation Ajax or even our Vietnam policy? No, in fact, I have long argued the opposite. I was a strong proponent of forcing a peaceful settlement between the French and Viet Minh immediately following World War II, coupled with economic and political assistance to the newly independent Vietnamese state. I even wrote essays arguing against American intervention in both conflicts for my class and received a 100% on both essays. So where exactly does this theory of yours that I supported regime change in Iran or Vietnam come from?

[General Battuta]

I agree that Islamism probably would've happened no matter what - the seeds were there very early in the 20th. I don't think America would be a target for those groups if not for our own foreign policy.

You've advocated for interventionism on tactical grounds which, I think, is an argument that's undone by the history of our attempted interventions in the past 100 years. I'm not sure why you're bringing Vietnam into this (The Act of Killing covers the slaughter of dissidents in Sumatra, which occurred under a US-backed regime).

Twilight Struggle is a really good board game though.

[The E]

Right, okay, as nice as the fact that you know the names and dates is, please get back to the topic, or to be more precise, this point Battuta made:

No American program of massive top-down force against a social problem has ever succeeded, because we don't have good maps of how to convert coercive force into successful outcomes. There might not be any effective routes to map at all.

You were arguing for intervening in another country's politics, despite a noted lack of a positive track record for american politics. You were also saying that you were arguing from a non-practical philosophical standpoint (Which leads me to ask whether there's some disconnect between the part of your brain that studied history, and the part of your brain that comes up with these ideas of yours).

Also, please recall the circumstances surrounding your previous instances of trolling these boards. You were doing very well there for a few months, being a normal member of this board and all. Do not backslide into your previous habits, even if it is in this circuitous "I posted this on facebook" way.