[BritishShivans]

the shivans are actually radical environmentalists trying to halt the process of subspacial warming at all costs

****

i've become drew karpyshyn

goddamnit now you've gone and done it

we've been EXPOSED

[An4ximandros]

That's it ph, we have achieved entropy; we have nothing more to post.
is lost.

[AdmiralRalwood]

I think it might actually be possible for FreeSpace tech to dump thermal energy into subspace.

Haha, I think the BP tech entry for the BFRed alludes to something like that for that particular beam.

Yup:

Alliance analysts have no explanation for this weapons system. The Sathanas' main beam cannons discharge kilotons of magnetically confined plasma at .9998 lightspeed. They are capable of continuous fire without overheating. It is unclear where the heat goes, leading GTI analysts to the unsettling conclusion that these weapons are not compatible with thermodynamics as we understand it. It is possible that waste heat is somehow shunted into subspace, or that the Shivans use quantum sleight-of-hand to process the heat out of local space. No allied warship can survive engagement with one of these weapons. Current GTVA tactical doctrine calls for concentrated bomber strikes to destroy these weapons before they can be brought to bear on allied capital ships.

(Which means that, in BP canon at least, GTVA warships do not shunt their waste heat into subspace.)

[Gee1337]

I'm loving Phantom's comment about the Shivans being environmentalists (I actually PMSL)...are they Al Gore in disguise?

I'm loving the explanations/discussions I have provoked on thermodynamics and thanks to the likes of Qwadtep and Alzurana for bringing the more scientific insights into this.

Now as people have already realised from my other two posts on this thread, I am no scientist, or more specifically a physicist, but I do have a very crude and rudamentary understanding (which can't be expanded as my IQ will never exceed my postcount ). But... as some more food for thought:-

1) If the Shivans are dumping their heat into subspace are they also drawing their power from subspace?
2) Are they also recycling their energy back into the beams already to maintain the firerate they can pull off?

My explanations would be:-
 
1) In short... yes! Maybe one of the key reasons why shields cannot be used in subspace is that subspace naturally absorbs vast amounts of heat, and Shivans dump their heat into subspace when travelling through it and empty their heat buffers, for lack of a better term. At the same time, they charge their capacitors whilst in subspace. Imagination is key here as we don't know what effects the natural environment of subspace has to offer. We are also never told WHY shields cannot be used in subspace. Could the reason be that subspace causes ships to warm to the point where it would kill the pilot? Or is it because subspace absorbs the energy in the shield causing the power drain to be so high that it renders a ship dead? In the case of the Shivans, if the shields were up then the power drain could be too high for even them to maintain and if they could then maybe the shields could potentially deny them the ability to draw power from subspace.

2) Again... in short.. yes! The Shivans have been around a lot longer than Terrans and Vasudans, so their technology is immensely superior. This is where the science fiction comes into play and the imagination is allowed to negate the known laws of physics. As I suggested in my earlier post, this is science fiction and the Shivans probably have access to exotic materials and elements that have yet to be discovered by science. It could also perhaps be a reason why the Shivans do not bat an eyelid when a Sathanas goes up (Capella supernova where we see one Sathanas just sitting their), as a Sathanas might not actually have a big crew, but the hull is actually made up of big slabs of materials which recycle heat from the high output systems, which in turn also house massive capacitors and heat sinks which is what allows it to maintain its effectiveness, made from materials which require extremely low maintenance.

To support the idea, compare the Sathanas to the Colossus (which was probably a very badly designed ship). I believe that one on one, a Sathanas would actually munch the Colossus quite easily were it not for the intervention of Alpha 1 knocking out the front beams. Also, the Colossus appears to rely on the old "broadside" firing (IIRC), with the placement of its beam weaponary, similar to that of the battleships of old whereas the TEI ships prefer to have the cannons at the front to deliver maximum damage when facing the enemy, pretty much like the front guns of the Pegasus in BSG. The Colossus also has a crew compliment of 30,000 whereas a Sathanas... well... a complete unknown. So taking the concept of 30,000 crew... wow... that must be one delicate ship to need that many people to maintain it, even if it is a stupid size! In conclusions, the Colossus destruction was a tradgedy because of the loss of life rather than the ship itself, whereas a Sathanas which might be crewed by (my imagination says...) 3000, the destruction of a Sathanas is comparable to the loss of an Orion (sorry... can't remember the actual crew compliment of an Orion).

I hope everyone enjoys reading these ideas!

[Alzurana]

I hope everyone enjoys reading these ideas!

Oh I did! You got some decent brain juice going on, there.
Diamonds in a rough, if I may say so.

1) If the Shivans are dumping their heat into subspace are they also drawing their power from subspace?

Using capacitors and batteries for energy only is insufficient because they are huge compared to actual reactors. That's why atomic submarines have a reactor on board and not giant car batteries. Lets just say Shivans use zero point energy extracted from a subspace field within their reactors. No details, there, because "zero point energy" is a giant big problem on it's own. This also gives us an explanation why destroying the Lucifers reactors is so devastating.

Empty "space" usually does not absorb energy. "Space" in general are just dimensions or easy: "directions" you can travel along. "subspace" or "hyperspace" can be understood as nothing more but additional dimensions which are tiny compared to our normal space-time. You don't travel faster than light, you just use shortcuts, no laws broken.
Energy just travels through it. Using that explanation one can assume that dumping heat as radiation through a jump flash hole may be possible but you still have to radiate it away. I'm sure the Shivans found a way and if you ask them nicely, they might even tell you! ^^

The shield question, however, is a tough one but if you assume that shields have something to do with subspace it >can< be easy. First explanation would be that the Shivans advanced subspace technology allowed them to develop shields in the first place. How exactly they work is open to a lot of speculation, however. They don't work in subspace, because the physical principles which make them possible can not be applied in subspace.
Most sifi settings don't even try to explain shields, because any given answer to that question is just inconsistent and breaks so many laws that anyone would just say "what a giant pile of cr*p!"

2) Are they also recycling their energy back into the beams already to maintain the firerate they can pull off?

Exotic materials or rather elements:
Less likely. We discovered every presumable stable element in the periodic table, already. There are no other ways to combine electrons, protons and neutrons to form new ones.
Pardon! There are...
In theory you can just up the number of protons until you discover a new element but they are all not stable and break down to simpler and stable elements within micro- and even just nanoseconds. Oh and they emit an unhealthy amount of particle radiation in the process. Exotic elements are rather unlikely and I could slap any sifi series which invents stuff like naquadah which magically turns into naquadriah because of "quantum events"? (Sorry, Stargate is not bad but come on people... do your research ^^)

Turning pure heat into useable energy violates the second law thermodynamics, which is a fundamental law of our universe. It's universal and the reason why we even exist. It's one of the reasons why the sun is shining. It's the reason why you can scramble an egg, but you can't "unscramble" it by simply turning your spoon in the different direction. The only way to achieve this is to reverse time and this is where believability goes in the pub to drink a pint because it won't deal with those explanations, anymore. ^^
To draw you a picture, here:
When you're on a mountain and you jump down you have a lot of potential energy which is turned into kinetic energy. You fall until you hit the ground. As soon as you did that all your potential energy is used up and you can not fall further. Of course, you could say "I will just dig a hole." But you need more energy to dig that hole than you get in potential energy. That's the same with heat. As soon as it's used or "pushed off the mountain" you're not able to use it anymore. If you want to do so, anyway, you need more energy than you'd get out of it.
I'd dump that idea entirely because it's very VERY unlikely that this would ever be possible. I'd rather put my chips on "extracting energy from space-time" and "zero point energy" because there is mathematical proof. However, it only works for a couple of nano watts.

(sorry... can't remember the actual crew compliment of an Orion).

I think it's 10000.
The bigger the ship, the lower the crew per cubic meter if you will so.


oh my, wall of text, again. I'm sorry ;-;

[AdmiralRalwood]

(sorry... can't remember the actual crew compliment of an Orion).

I think it's 10000.

The Hecate is ten thousand, but I don't think there are any canon references to the crew compliment of the Orion.

[qwadtep]

2) Are they also recycling their energy back into the beams already to maintain the firerate they can pull off?

Exotic materials or rather elements:
Less likely. We discovered every presumable stable element in the periodic table, already. There are no other ways to combine electrons, protons and neutrons to form new ones.
Pardon! There are...
In theory you can just up the number of protons until you discover a new element but they are all not stable and break down to simpler and stable elements within micro- and even just nanoseconds. Oh and they emit an unhealthy amount of particle radiation in the process. Exotic elements are rather unlikely and I could slap any sifi series which invents stuff like naquadah which magically turns into naquadriah because of "quantum events"? (Sorry, Stargate is not bad but come on people... do your research ^^)

I'm pretty sure I recall reading about hypotheses concerning a threshold after which high-mass synthetic elements should become stable again, but I don't have a citation nor a solid understanding of the concepts involved.
It doesn't really matter though. The techroom make it makes it abundantly clear that Shivan/Vishnan technology is completely beyond both our current and 24th-century understanding of the universe. If a Type 2 civilization wants to use exotic matter to shoot weaponized dimensional holes that rearrange fermions into identical quantum states, you don't tell them no.

e: Orion has a crew of 10,000, as per A Lion at the Door.

You survived your first sortie against the Shivans. Though we had only a small opposing force to contend with, survival is half the battle. Tragically, the 10,000 men and women on board the Carthage were not so lucky. As a unit, we must accept the blame for this catastrophe. Had we fought harder, we could have saved that destroyer. A service for the dead will be held at 0100 hours on Deck 36.

The Dashor (a Sobek) is also mentioned to have a crew of 6,000 when destroyed. Freespace ships are big. I swear there's a reference to the Fenris having 3,000 somewhere...

[Mars]

IIRC the only canon reference to a Fenris crew is in the Eve of Destruction

The GTC Orff was destroyed during your watch.  Dozens of lives were lost due to your poor performance.  This catastrophe will surely result in an increased Vasudan presence in the system.

There is no place for you in the GTA.  You are dismissed.

The crew sizes are also really, really small compared to the ships they represent - the Orff is about the length of a contemporary aircraft supercarrier. Presumably the crew compartments  of these ships are quite a bit smaller.

[Cyborg17]

Am I the only one who wants a gigantic retcon of FS1 text and CBanis?

[Alzurana]

The Hecate is ten thousand, but I don't think there are any canon references to the crew compliment of the Orion.

I checked back and canon reference for the Orions crew is also present in "Feint! Parry! Riposte!", where the admiral Koth tries to ram the GTVA Colossus with his Orion, the NTD Repulse.
"I have 10000 crewman who are willing to die for neo terra!" BP2 references to admiral Koth in the final mission of Act 2 "Delenda Est" where, I think Indus control is asking Lopez if she wants to be a second Koth by not surrendering her ship.

I'm pretty sure I recall reading about hypotheses concerning a threshold after which high-mass synthetic elements should become stable again, but I don't have a citation nor a solid understanding of the concepts involved.

That sounds quite interesting and could make some explanations possible. Still, those elements wouldn't exist naturally. However, it always harms a sifi setting if it tries to explain the technology of a highly advanced species.
*EDIT: Found it, it's called the "Island of stability". Here's the wiki article for anyone who might wants to dig into it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability
And an illustration:
http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/island-of-stability.jpg
They still decay and are radioactive but I guess a Shivan wouldn't mind.

If a Type 2 civilization wants to use exotic matter to shoot weaponized dimensional holes that rearrange fermions into identical quantum states, you don't tell them no.

HAHA! Yeah they just do it, I guess.  They don't care if they rip holes in the fabric of space-time, they just do it. ^^ Shivans are physics douchebags! >:C
Kinda reminds me of that one episode of futurama:
"Yes, the light speed was to slow, that's why they upped it in 2637."
-"That's impossible!"
"Everything is possible if you're able to imagine it."

[emkay]

One small note to add to the idea of storing heat energy away...

It might be possible in the 24th century, that storing heat energy needs not necessarily to be performed in a "chemical way" (i.e. by forming molecule bindings out of single elements), but in an "atomic way" (i.e. by forming heavy elements out of light ones). Those heavy elements (e.g. lead) could simply be dumped in space, or even be fed into locally stored particle weaponry ammunition (which would all "solve" the problem of unwanted nuclear waste).

This may account for several issues:
1. Since nuclear fusion (as well as fission) can store a vast amount of energy, the storage space necessary for the "fusion input material" (a certain mass of a medium element, such as iron) would be quite low. Thus, an actual refill may hence only be necessary a couple of times throughout the ship's lifetime (e.g. during a complete overhaul, equivalent to the "refill" of nuclear-powered ships today). So, no specific "short-term" tactical issues would come along with that technology (which is why it was never mentioned in canon before).
2. It is still a process with limited energy conversion rate - hence the limitation of beam weaponry energy output. Otherwise the "conversion reactor" would need to be massive, which would take away valuable space inside the ship.
3. In contrast to the proposed large-surfaced (and hence fragile) heat radiation subsystems, it can be installed inside the ship and is therefore protected against weapon fire.
4. Although complete sience fiction for us today and cutting-edge technology for humans in the 24th century, it is definitely a "stone-age" technology for the Shivans - above all because the supposed "subspace energy dumping" technique does not come along with the issue of a low energy conversion rate.

Of course, this simple idea is unsatisfying towards many issues - above all the one that the "starting" temperature and pressure for nuclear fusion needs to be very high, just like inside a star (which is why "low temperature" waste heat would never suffice here).

Maybe someone likes to think about it and eventually comes up with a reasonable form of technical application that satisfies both the canonical and scientific issues...

[Rheavatarin]

It might be possible in the 24th century, that storing heat energy needs not necessarily to be performed in a "chemical way" (i.e. by forming molecule bindings out of single elements), but in an "atomic way" (i.e. by forming heavy elements out of light ones). Those heavy elements (e.g. lead) could simply be dumped in space, or even be fed into locally stored particle weaponry ammunition (which would all "solve" the problem of unwanted nuclear waste).

...

3. In contrast to the proposed large-surfaced (and hence fragile) heat radiation subsystems, it can be installed inside the ship and is therefore protected against weapon fire.

Are you proposing some sort of transmutation or chemical process that is endothermic and thus absorbs the excess waste heat into some sort of physical product that could easily be dumped as exhaust? That is a thermal management method that I've not considered before. I suspect that you would still run up against entropy effects in the same way that entropy decreases the efficiency of a heat engine with a low temperature gradient. If nothing else, you would eventually run out of the raw materials of your transmutation process, and have to resupply. That makes it about the same as exchanging your hot heat sinks, or hot coolant with cold ones at a base or logistics ship.

[Herra Tohtori]

Are you proposing some sort of transmutation or chemical process that is endothermic and thus absorbs the excess waste heat into some sort of physical product that could easily be dumped as exhaust? That is a thermal management method that I've not considered before.

Evaporative cooling technically is exactly this, although it relies on the latent energy associated to phase change from liquid to gas rather than other similar systems. Heat causes a physical reaction - in this case a phase change - and the energy is stored in the coolant medium's new phase configuration.

I suspect that you would still run up against entropy effects in the same way that entropy decreases the efficiency of a heat engine with a low temperature gradient. If nothing else, you would eventually run out of the raw materials of your transmutation process, and have to resupply. That makes it about the same as exchanging your hot heat sinks, or hot coolant with cold ones at a base or logistics ship.

Yes, but if you can convert thermal energy into a more convenient form - like chemical bond energy, or possibly even nuclear energy - you might get better energy density, which would ultimately set the limit to how much waste energy you can store before you have to vent it somehow.


From nuclear perspective, you'd be best off starting with iron. Iron has the lowest energy state of all nuclei, and all transmutations - whether you fuse iron into heavier elements, or fissure it into lighter ones - are endothermic. In fact it requires tremendous energy to achieve. It is most likely never going to be a practical way of storing energy in reality, as it requires basically particle accelerators to bombard the iron nuclei in such a way that they either split into lighter elements, or accumulate the particles to form heavier elements. And you can't really power a particle accelerator with just ambient blob of thermal energy.

The only way you could ever possibly use raw heat to do this is if you could somehow heat the iron into a plasma, and increase temperature and pressure to such an extent that the collisions between iron nuclei would be sufficient to fuse them into heavier elements. Now, technically, this would work - the energy of the plasma would get stored into heavier elements, and the process certainly would absorb heat. It would also probably produce radioactive nuclei, not that it's much of a problem if you can manage the intense gamma radiation that would come from the incredibly hot plasma in the first place.

Much like with evaporative cooling, the process does occur spontaneously without needing anything but heat, so it is in a way analogous to a phase change. In fact the exact same thermophysical equations can be used to describe the process, if you just input suitable values for the energy states.

However, even if it could in theory work, this seems like a somewhat wasteful method of heat storage, as the required energy states are only reached in supernova explosions, and you might want to avoid having to contain that onboard a spacecraft.

Just saying. An endothermic chemical reaction may be a better solution...

[qwadtep]

I think that if you have enough spare power for a sustained endothermic fusion reaction, you'd probably save even more waste heat by simply downgrading your main reactor.

[Rheavatarin]

Evaporative cooling technically is exactly this, although it relies on the latent energy associated to phase change from liquid to gas rather than other similar systems. Heat causes a physical reaction - in this case a phase change - and the energy is stored in the coolant medium's new phase configuration.

I was mostly thinking of chemical or nuclear processes, rather than dumping hot exhaust. Though evaporation is a perfectly valid method of heat management, the amount of coolant you would be boiling off is massive considering the power levels under discussion.

The only way you could ever possibly use raw heat to do this is if you could somehow heat the iron into a plasma, and increase temperature and pressure to such an extent that the collisions between iron nuclei would be sufficient to fuse them into heavier elements. Now, technically, this would work - the energy of the plasma would get stored into heavier elements, and the process certainly would absorb heat. It would also probably produce radioactive nuclei, not that it's much of a problem if you can manage the intense gamma radiation that would come from the incredibly hot plasma in the first place.

...

Just saying. An endothermic chemical reaction may be a better solution...

Additionally, I'm not entirely clear how you would use the low-grade waste heat from cycling the life support system, or even the normal space engines, into the extremely high temperatures necessary to ionize iron. The amount of work you would have to put into pushing that heat across the temperature gradient would be prohibitive. I wonder whether evaporative cooling or endothermic chemical cooling is more efficient on a mass energy density basis.

[Rheavatarin]

I think that if you have enough spare power for a sustained endothermic fusion reaction, you'd probably save even more waste heat by simply downgrading your main reactor.

That was a much better and succinct response than mine. 

[An4ximandros]

My understanding is that subspace is the quantum septic-tank of inconveniences in the universe, everything that goes there turns into a protanopia rainbow.

I want to know, given the ridiculous firepower of the mx-50 (16.5 Kt!), how are they gonna handle atmospheric fighting in act 4?

[Mars]

I think that the weapon yields have either been retconned in BP, or they're being explained away as shaped charges. We've already had atmospheric Supernovas in Act 3, and they weren't "gigaton in atmosphere" size, I think the blast waves might have been two kilometers.

[Aesaar]

My understanding is that subspace is the quantum septic-tank of inconveniences in the universe, everything that goes there turns into a protanopia rainbow.

I want to know, given the ridiculous firepower of the mx-50 (16.5 Kt!), how are they gonna handle atmospheric fighting in act 4?

By ignoring the stupid numbers like that one.

[JerichoDeath]

I think it might actually be possible for FreeSpace tech to dump thermal energy into subspace.

Haha, I think the BP tech entry for the BFRed alludes to something like that for that particular beam.

Yup:

Alliance analysts have no explanation for this weapons system. The Sathanas' main beam cannons discharge kilotons of magnetically confined plasma at .9998 lightspeed. They are capable of continuous fire without overheating. It is unclear where the heat goes, leading GTI analysts to the unsettling conclusion that these weapons are not compatible with thermodynamics as we understand it. It is possible that waste heat is somehow shunted into subspace, or that the Shivans use quantum sleight-of-hand to process the heat out of local space. No allied warship can survive engagement with one of these weapons. Current GTVA tactical doctrine calls for concentrated bomber strikes to destroy these weapons before they can be brought to bear on allied capital ships.

(Which means that, in BP canon at least, GTVA warships do not shunt their waste heat into subspace.)

My interpretation for that quote is that the Alliance doesn't understand how the Shivans can shunt waste heat into subspace while remaining in normal space and firing their beams. Isn't is still possible that they could "eject" their heat into subspace while traveling through it on their way somewhere?