Author Topic: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham  (Read 15009 times)

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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Science is inherently open.
That may be the ideal, but it's not at all the reality.  There have been plenty of incidents where scientists have been ostracized for the crime of presenting new theories that challenged the status quo.

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The reason why science often appears to be "closed" process is that most of it is very specialized. Scientific papers require quite a bit of expertise on the topic to be legible.
Whether a process is open or closed is independent of its complexity.  I'm sure climatology is quite complex, but there are numerous experienced and credentialed scientists who have challenged the consensus on global warming.  Yet there is substantial political pressure to toe the global warming party line.


Your argument comment is a strawman in that you know full well he meant public debate in opposition to scholarly review.
The dictionary definition of debate is "to consider something; deliberate"; or "to engage in argument by discussing opposing points".  That definition is broad enough to cover both spoken and written debate, as well as both rhetorical and empirical arguments.  Now Battuta has drawn a distinction between rhetorical and empirical argument, but watsisname did not.  And it was to watsisname that I directed my initial question.

In any case, watsisname answered the question I posed to him here.

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Yet you try to paint this as there being gatekeepers for science. An elite that violates the openness of science.
Of course there are gatekeepers for science.  The most obvious example is the editor who decides whether an article is to be included in a journal.  But there are also more indirect gatekeepers, as I mentioned to Herra above.

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If you truly believe your own argument, I urge you to never post on the SCP internal again. Because the exact same argument applies there. On a truly open source project, all decisions should be made in public. Otherwise we have gatekeepers to the SCP code. Which is fundamentally contrary to the goals of open source coding.

It's not a perfect analogy of course but it's close enough.
Again, I haven't made any argument.  I haven't said whether science should be open or closed, or under what conditions, or why.

And not only is the analogy not perfect, it's not even applicable to SCP.  The Source Code Project is engineering, not science.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
So?
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Science is inherently open.
That may be the ideal, but it's not at all the reality.  There have been plenty of incidents where scientists have been ostracized for the crime of presenting new theories that challenged the status quo.

New theories should be challenged. Unfortunately, all scientists are humans and all humans can be arseholes; therefore all scientists can be arseholes and instead of challenging new theories, sometimes that translates to deriding the authors of said theories.

Very unscientific, very human.

Scientific model is a completely unnatural approach to problem solving. That's why we're so bad at it and we need to train hard to become better at it. But, at the same time, it's the best way of advancing our knowledge.

That said, whether some presenters of new ideas get challenged or not is, at best, an anecdote about how scientific community doesn't always behave in a rational way. It seems completely irrelevant regarding the argument of science being open or closed process.

Science is open to anyone who is able and willing to make a meaningful contribution. That means getting an education to the level where you can contribute. There are certain standards for those contributions, but no real "gatekeepers as such", as the term goes.

Whether that contribution ends up being significant on a science-changing level like all the ridiculous amounts of works by Einstein, that's anyone's guess. But that's also the beauty of it - basically, anyone doing the most basic research could stumble upon something that turns out to be important in hindsight...


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The reason why science often appears to be "closed" process is that most of it is very specialized. Scientific papers require quite a bit of expertise on the topic to be legible.
Whether a process is open or closed is independent of its complexity.  I'm sure climatology is quite complex, but there are numerous experienced and credentialed scientists who have challenged the consensus on global warming.  Yet there is substantial political pressure to toe the global warming party line.[/quote]


Most climatologists will not refer to global warming precisely because no one knows what the hell is going to happen. It's usually referred to as global climate change instead because we can actually verify that the climate is changing at a shocking rate. What it's going to cause - well, most climatologists predict it will increase the temperature averages; that's basically a prediction from many simulations run with different parametres but there's no way of really knowing which one (if any) of them is actually right. All they can say is most of the models predict warming (I don't remember the sigma values for the current predictions and I'm too lazy to look up).

It's essentially the same reason why the weather forecast cannot really reliably tell you whether it will rain in grandma's birthday next month so you can choose whether to set up a grill party or stay inside, but instead of a month (or at most a year's prediction in case of birthdays), climate models are expected to project overall weather patterns years or decades into the future, and the smallest discrepancies or hidden variables can change things a lot. But, if grandma's birthday is in the summer, it's more likely to be warm and sunny than if the birthday is in autumn...

So while there's no clear consensus about it, most models and data trends predict comparatively fast increases in average temperatures if situation is unchanged with the greenhouse gas emissions. The critical factor is the speed of that change - the faster it happens, the worse it will be. That's why the scientific advisors to most governments in the world are telling them it would probably be a good idea to think of some ways to react to the already observed changes before things get a lot worse.


So, regardless of whether or not it's happening, to what magnitude, and how fast - there are political motivations to do something about it, and there are motivations to ignore it and keep doing everything just as before. Those don't really affect science as such, they are just examples of what happens when scientific community hasn't achieved a full consensus on an issue that is notoriously hard to predict, and there's political pressure to react to it one way or another - it turns out that in most political system there are the Incumbents and the Opposition (as well as subdivisions between them, and in most countries there's more than just two political parties), and the Opposition typically opposes whatever the Incumbents happen to do (though there are exceptions to this rule).

If you look at things over the globe and check where Incumbents have decided that global climate change is a real thing and something needs to be done about it, the Opposition is typically saying that this is all pish, there's no proof, and the government is wasting precious tax money on this nonsense. I expect the opposite is also true in countries where the government has decided not to react on climate change, but I can't really think of many... China, maybe? Possibly many developing countries where spending effort to be more environmental would be a serious detriment to the nation?

Anyway: If you ask most climatologists what their stance on climate change is, the honest ones will tell you they can't know exactly, but the projections of the models tend to scare the crap out of them - and most of them are also alarmed by the rate of change in atmospheric composition and oceanic pH levels; both of these are really big changes in a really short time, and when you do that to an organic system like Earth, whatever the changes are, they're more likely to be vast and cataclysmic than gradual and beneficial.

Then there are some who present worst case scenarios as facts, and as a response to them there are some who oppose them with the best case scenario models or question the validity of the worst case scenarios. These are all parts of the (more or less) scientific ongoing discourse on the matter.

And then, and then you have the guys with agendas. The "climate skeptics" who make it their business to oppose the idea that the climate is changing to a worse direction (or in a milder case claim that it might change but humans have nothing to do with it so there's nothing to worry about).

Most of these "climate skeptics" tend to have no actual credentials to evaluate climate science. They are just saying things because they're expected to have an opinion and their opinion generally tends to be influenced by their political and economic standing in the societal hierarchy. There is a paper written about that accessible here.
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Offline deathfun

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-from-creationists-to-people-who-believe-in-evolutio

Posting this because it's related and it hurt my brain enough to post
"No"

 

Offline The E

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
4, 5, 6, 11, 14, 15, 16, 18 and 22 are hilarious...


... examples of why science education needs to be improved drastically. They're so far into "not even wrong" territory, it's just not funny.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
I've always loved the "If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys" statement. I always reply with "If orange juice comes from oranges, why are there still oranges?" :p
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Offline watsisname

Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Quote from: Herra
or the fact that the Moon is being pushed away from the Earth as tidal forces act to slow its orbital velocity.

This is highly tangential and I know what you're meaning to show, but this example was not quite stated right.  Tidal forces act to accelerate the Moon -- speed it up, not slow it down.  It then slows down because it speeds up.  Ah, there's the nonsense of orbital mechanics.  Acceleration means an increase in energy, pushing the Moon into a larger orbit.  Larger orbits are slower.  Put a massive ship with a slow ion-drive in low Earth orbit.  Fire the engines, prograde.  The ship is accelerating, but the velocity drops by virtue of the vis viva equation.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
this thread is so depressing.

just kill it.

please?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Quote from: Herra
or the fact that the Moon is being pushed away from the Earth as tidal forces act to slow its orbital velocity.

This is highly tangential and I know what you're meaning to show, but this example was not quite stated right.  Tidal forces act to accelerate the Moon -- speed it up, not slow it down.  It then slows down because it speeds up.  Ah, there's the nonsense of orbital mechanics.  Acceleration means an increase in energy, pushing the Moon into a larger orbit.  Larger orbits are slower.  Put a massive ship with a slow ion-drive in low Earth orbit.  Fire the engines, prograde.  The ship is accelerating, but the velocity drops by virtue of the vis viva equation.

Yeah, I skipped a few intermediary stages there.

There are some misconceptions about it - I've seen it explained as some kind of force "pushing" Moon away (even though there's no repulsive forces in the whole system!) and that then requires the Moon to slow down - because, allegedly, there's no prograde/retrograde forces on the Moon (which is the wrong part in this misconception) and if angular momentum is constant and radius is increased, velocity must be decreased...

The energy transfer is from the rotation energy of Earth to orbital (kinetic and potential) energy of Moon. And while total conservation of angular momentum applies, the Moon's angular momentum doesn't conserve - it increases (while Earth's angular momentum decreases), but the whole thing manifests as increased orbital radius rather than increased orbital velocity, because the orbit is a very gradual spiral.

So the net effect is "pushed away while slowing down" which appears very counter-intuitive unless you've played a lot of Orbiter or KSP. And, even if someone understands the mathematics behind it, they may have difficulty in understanding WHERE the accelerating torque comes from... :p

So, yeah. Even a relatively simple problem of classical mechanics requires pretty good understanding of the underlying causes and mathematics.
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Offline watsisname

Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Ah, yes, that's a very good point.  To say the moon is 'pushed' into a higher orbit is figurative but quite incorrect, for of course there are no pressure forces at work here.  The only relevant force is gravity.  Because the rotation rate of the Earth is faster than the orbital rate of the Moon, the tidal bulge raised on the Earth is dragged a bit in front of an imaginary line connecting the centers of the two bodies.  Therefore a component of the gravitational force of the bulge acting on the Moon pulls the Moon prograde.  The Moon pulls back on the bulge as well, causing a decelerating torque on the Earth's rotation. 

I've often seen the description of the Earth's decreasing spin rate as being due to conservation of momentum to counterbalance the momentum gained by the Moon's expanding orbit.  The angular momentum is indeed conserved, but the causal mechanism is left rather mysterious.  Here it is simply a result of the above symmetry of forces. 

This explanation is still pretty simple though and can lead to misconceptions.  For instance, there are really two 'tidal bulges', not one.  More precisely, the Moon's gravitational field distorts the Earth's shape (otherwise an oblate spheroid) into a triaxial ellipsoid, with the torques being determined by this mass distribution and its orientation.

But anyway, yeah, the whole thing is a great example of fairly simple physics producing totally counter-intuitive behavior. :)
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Offline Mikes

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
cringeworthy (referring to the original debate)

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
there are numerous experienced and credentialed scientists who have challenged the consensus on global warming.  Yet there is substantial political pressure to toe the global warming party line.

can you produce a paper by one of these guys that lays out some evedence, makes some predictions, ect?
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
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there are numerous experienced and credentialed scientists who have challenged the consensus on global warming.  Yet there is substantial political pressure to toe the global warming party line.

The opposite is true, actually. The IPCC has to tone-down their findings to prevent themselves being called scare-mongerers :blah:.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
That's highly speculative and insubstantiated. Their data is actually undermining many assumptions and predictions made in AR4, and yet they upgraded their "certainties" from 90% to 95%, regardless of the meaningless of this number in any objective means (it's mostly a "subjective" statement that somehow "follows" from the reading of the evidence, iow, it's how scientists are "feeling").

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
no, actually there is a mathematical formula they are fallowing certainty.
it basically is them saying that if they remeasured everything the same number of times there is a 95% probability they would get data that was the same or more in the direction of their conclusion.
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Offline watsisname

Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
You're actually both sort of right and sort of wrong -- there are instances in climate science where the confidence in a result can be determined quantitatively, and there are other instances where it is based on expert judgement of the quality and quantity of evidence.

This stuff is talked about in great detail in the introduction of the reports btw.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
yes but luis is far too clever to read the opinions of so-called 'experts'
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
I'm clever, yes, but that is irrelevant. "expert judgement" is just institutenglish for subjective assessment from the part of the IPCC.


 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Frankly, I don't think a true discussion between scientific and creationist viewpoints is even possible as one of them, as exemplified in this very discussion/video, consist basically of repeating "but you are wrong because I believe what is written in an ancient book more than any  uh ... "testable evidence". Rewatch it if you don't believe me ... that is exactly what he said.

And he also basically said that he will never ever change his mind, no matter what, as an answer to the question about "what" would change his mind. He pu**yfooted around the issue a bit and quickly passed the question over to Nye without giving a direct answer, but do rewatch it, that is what his answer boils down to: "I am right because of what I believe and everybody else is wrong ... and f*** all the evidence to the contrary."

There is valuable discourse about science and religion however:
This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQk4NfW7g0 was actually a joy to watch.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 05:59:51 am by Mikes »