Author Topic: Stuff's happening in Ukraine  (Read 30968 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
"We want to protect the russian peoples in foreign lands, and to do so we annex their territories into ours. Thus they'll have as many rights as Russians have. Oh, btw, Russians have no rights. Enjoy!"

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Flip, I don't think this affair even qualifies as the ends justify the means.  If by "ends" you mean something other then extending the interests of Russia.
 
Does anyone think Russia would not have seized the Crimean Peninsula if there was not an ethnic Russian population that happened to provide a convenient excuse post facto?  Does anyone think Putin orchestrated this entire event because he had the interests of the people in Crimea at the forefront?  In comparison with the popular unrest that occurred to oust the prior Ukrainian administration the fact folks in Crimea only required the peninsula to be seized by multiple Russian Motor Rifle Companies really speaks to their zeal and determination for annexation.



That's the thing though isn't it? The ends may not have been protecting Russians in Crimea, that may have been the means. It's kind of like Iraq as in, was overthrowing Saddam the ends of the invasion, or was it simply a means to protect Oil interests in the area?

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
no, come on that's obvious. the ends were to make sure no wmds were in place when they got the job done. lo and behold it was a massive success!

 
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Personally, I think any superpower should be very wary of the fallacy of 'The end justifies the means', whether those ends are defending the populace, overthrowing an oppressive regime or even preventing Terrorism.

I don't think any power can claim to be not guilty of falling into that trap.
I think any non-superpower should be wary of superpowers that use the "The end justifies the means" argument...

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Flip, I don't think this affair even qualifies as the ends justify the means.  If by "ends" you mean something other then extending the interests of Russia.
 
Does anyone think Russia would not have seized the Crimean Peninsula if there was not an ethnic Russian population that happened to provide a convenient excuse post facto?  Does anyone think Putin orchestrated this entire event because he had the interests of the people in Crimea at the forefront?  In comparison with the popular unrest that occurred to oust the prior Ukrainian administration the fact folks in Crimea only required the peninsula to be seized by multiple Russian Motor Rifle Companies really speaks to their zeal and determination for annexation.



That's the thing though isn't it? The ends may not have been protecting Russians in Crimea, that may have been the means. It's kind of like Iraq as in, was overthrowing Saddam the ends of the invasion, or was it simply a means to protect Oil interests in the area?

Then its the means justify the ends :P

Iraq was a terrible ****ing idea, I thought it was at the outset and I doubt many folks would still be proponents at this stage.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
At this stage, yes, but the trick is causing just enough confusion to mean that by the time people figure out the real goal, it's too late to do anything about it.

Personally, I think any superpower should be very wary of the fallacy of 'The end justifies the means', whether those ends are defending the populace, overthrowing an oppressive regime or even preventing Terrorism.

I don't think any power can claim to be not guilty of falling into that trap.
I think any non-superpower should be wary of superpowers that use the "The end justifies the means" argument...

Why just non-Superpower? Anyone, anywhere can be caught in that trap, Superpower or not. Look at things like the Patriot Act or recent revelations about the NSA.

 
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
At this stage, yes, but the trick is causing just enough confusion to mean that by the time people figure out the real goal, it's too late to do anything about it.

Personally, I think any superpower should be very wary of the fallacy of 'The end justifies the means', whether those ends are defending the populace, overthrowing an oppressive regime or even preventing Terrorism.

I don't think any power can claim to be not guilty of falling into that trap.
I think any non-superpower should be wary of superpowers that use the "The end justifies the means" argument...

Why just non-Superpower? Anyone, anywhere can be caught in that trap, Superpower or not. Look at things like the Patriot Act or recent revelations about the NSA.

Well, consider the following, completely fictional example:
Superpower A has been displaying their belief that might makes right by waging their dirty wars in third world countries, unencumbered by international law, for decades. Then the world finds out that, yes, they also find it necessary and proportionate to spy on their closest allies, including effectively the entire population. They also sabotage secure communications channels for everybody.
Meanwhile, (semi-)superpower B has been nibbling away at neighbouring countries, and decides to just take bites out of them whenever they feel like it.
This is timed in such a manner that the rest of the word effectively has to choose which of these to resist, because there is no third power that steps up to oppose both.
I think it was some terrible "Aliens vs. Predator" movie that had the the appropriate tagline: "whoever wins, we lose."

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Came across this article which has an interesting take on Putin's & Russia's side of things. Gorbachev even supported Putin in the Crimean decision.

EDIT: Forgot to link the article. :P

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/why-putin-crimea-strategy-west-villain

 
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26910210
Quote
Pro-Russian protesters have stormed the regional administration building in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk.

About 50 people are reported to have broken away from a rally of about 2,000 people in the city centre, and got past a police cordon to enter the building.

Also some news about the snipers who killed about 90 people during the Kiev riots in February. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26866069

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Donetsk is leaving. Sort off...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 09:39:02 am by An4ximandros »

  

Offline Max Sterling

  • Veritech Ace
  • 26
    • Skype
    • http://www.steveracer.com
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I was going to post the Vice videos but I see someone has already gotten to it. They seem to have a pretty fair representation of what is going on since they mostly just shoot the events and ask regular people about what is going on.

I'm pretty sure Putin has plans to retake all the states that were lost to the USSR split...
-Max

Creator of Altered Spirits
http://www.alteredspiritsfilm.com

Creator of the FS2 Robotech MOD
http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/
and Bosch Beer.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I'm pretty sure Putin has plans to retake all the states that were lost to the USSR split Russian revolution...

FTFY

 :nervous:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Max Sterling

  • Veritech Ace
  • 26
    • Skype
    • http://www.steveracer.com
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Wow speaking of the spl-- er, revolution... Check this out:

Russian MPs seek to sue Gorbachev over USSR collapse

http://rt.com/politics/gorbachev-ussr-collapse-lawsuit-568/

“People in Kiev are dying and will keep on dying because of the people in the Kremlin who made a decision to break up the country a long time ago,” he told Izvestia.
-Max

Creator of Altered Spirits
http://www.alteredspiritsfilm.com

Creator of the FS2 Robotech MOD
http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/
and Bosch Beer.

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
ಠ_ಠ... I lack the words to describe myself appropriately. Does Russia want to be called the Second World that badly again?

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
Eh, and here I thought it's Americans who sue people over silly things... :) It wasn't people in the Kremlin who decided to break the country up. It fell apart on it's own, and Kremlin could never do anything about it. It could've made this much more violent than it was, but couldn't have stopped the collapse.

 

Offline NeonShivan

  • Previously known as BTA
  • 29
  • By the Omnisiah's grace.
In German even the most beautiful love letter sounds like an execution order -Mito

(•_•)
 <)  )/
 /  \ All the Single Ladies

( •_•)
\(  (>
  /  \ All the Single Ladies

(•_•)
 <)  )/
 /  \  Oh Oh Oh

Author of Dusk Wars - A modification for Freespace 2.

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
In a situation like that, all kind of nazis, commies, religious extremists and other such scum always come crawling out of the woodwork. Well, either that, or this is a provocation to discredit pro-Russian forces. We've seen that done before. Either way, it's a very bad thing, and definitely will destabilize the region further.

 

Offline Aardwolf

  • 211
  • Posts: 16,384
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
I heard it's fake. At least, the guy whose signature is supposedly on the flyers said he's "skeptical" of it. Not sure why he couldn't just say "it's fake", but maybe he lets his underlings sign stuff for him?

 

Offline Dragon

  • Citation needed
  • 212
  • The sky is the limit.
Re: Stuff's happening in Ukraine
The guy who's supposed to have instituted that "law" flat-out denied to have ever done anything like that, nor is anything written in the flyer actually a law. It's a provocation, probably by the Ukrainian government. Eh, I hate when there are no good guys... It's like some of the recent revolutions in the Middle East. There is no good and bad, only bad and worse, and you don't even know which is which. I'd like to keep out of this, but it's way too close for that.

 

Offline Max Sterling

  • Veritech Ace
  • 26
    • Skype
    • http://www.steveracer.com
-Max

Creator of Altered Spirits
http://www.alteredspiritsfilm.com

Creator of the FS2 Robotech MOD
http://robotechlan.com/freespace2/
and Bosch Beer.