Author Topic: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality  (Read 16768 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
@Nuke
Yes, I am in favor of some kind of similar reforms (although I think flat tax is just idiotic and wrong). I think that's one thing that both right wing and left wing economists actually agree with, just not politicians for obvious reasons.

  

Offline Mongoose

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Somewhere Locke, Rousseau, et al. are rolling over in their graves from some of these dismissals of the social contract concept.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Somewhere Locke, Rousseau, et al. are rolling over in their graves from some of these dismissals of the social contract concept.

Do a welfarrel roll

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
I think that if you are working, be it a low wage, part time etc. they should only deduct a percentage of your wage over the welfare you get. such as 50p in every pound (or 50c in every dollar whatever). That means if you are working, you still get a benefit for working, does that make sense?


The problem is situations where working actually yields less (economic*) benefit than just living on social welfare, which of course is indication of a broken system and should not happen.

Probably the best way to address this, of course, is setting up some arbitrary standard of living that should be achievable on welfare only, and then making sure that minimum wage is higher than that, and at minimum wage level you don't get taxed at all.

I don't think a "negative tax rate" is the way to go. Even though it is an interesting concept, it would be difficult to monitor in practice and defining who lives "under poverty line" is a pretty difficult thing to do.

In actuality I believe the biggest problem with setting up a viable network of social security is that it may put stress on a country's economic system, and - borrowing the page from Battuta's book - other countries are fully capable of defecting if it benefits them.

China, for example, is a defector (along with several other East Asian countries). It is beneficial to their economy to keep their workers' rights and protections (a form of social security) at minimal level. There are either no minimum wage / maximum hours limitations, or enforcing them is very lax and breaking them has negligible consequences. This means the workforce is very cheap and it's an economically competitive place to produce stuff in. The companies that produce stuff there have a serious advantage over countries that produce stuff in more expensive countries (which enforce workers' rights and have a comparatively good social security). And, of course, these defector countries attract a lot of business which superficially benefits their economy.

People, however, suffer from this immensely, both in the defector countries and the more expensive countries, because now these defector countries pull a lot of works from the more expensive countries and cause unemployment there.


Personally, I believe there should be a globally defined minimum wage and maximum hours (along with other workers' rights) and defecting from these rules should result in severe trade sanctions, to discourage this kind of exploitation of the "free market economy". Either the WTO or UN should be the ones to enforce these rules, and make them more detailed and defined. It would cause the Chinese and Vietnamese and Thai and Bangkok and many other governments to cry tears of blood as their economy would apparently suffer. It might meet resistance from the companies currently producing ****loads of stuff dirt cheap in these countries.

It might make things more expensive to produce. But, to counterbalance that, there would be more employment more evenly spread across the globe - so there would be more people with the funds to buy things. Especially, if the South-East Asian people were actually paid proper wages, can you imagine the buying power of those 3 billion people? It's not like salaries paid to people just disappear into a bottomless well - the more money moves, the better economy tends to work.

And those currently engaged in de facto slave labour would not be working themselves to early death - either by chronic industrial chemical poisoning or suicide - in really **** conditions.

It might even have an effect on the population growth rate, since standard of living tends to have inverse correlation to birth rates while death rate remains at 100% (although with longer and more productive lives).

It could seem catastrophic in short term, but in the end, it would benefit every person in the world.

Except maybe those few that benefit most from the current situation by exploiting as many others as possible.



*Talking about the sheer amount of money here. Having a work, even if social security would yield numerically more money, usually has a lot of positive, stabilizing psychological and social effects on a person's life, and I think most unemployed people would take that over "mooching on the society" in a heartbeat - but if their status changes to "employed" and the net effect on their income is negative compared to social securities only, they may not even be able to do it. What would you do if you were unemployed but had a family to take care of, the social security barely keeps you fed and sheltered - then you're offered a job, but you do the math and find  that accepting the job would make your family worse off in the whole?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:30:07 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Kolgena

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
The problem with making standardized maximum hours/minimum wages is that the cost of living varies drastically across countries. Minimum wage here is something like 10 dollars an hour. That's like 70 RMB an hour, or a ridiculously large amount of money, given that a decent meal from a small restaurant can cost 20RMB. On the other hand, housing in big cities is hilariously expensive at tens of thousands of RMB per square meter, while parking spots are usually in the millions of RMB. (btw, apparently average family income per year is around 13k RMB) The point is, while we could standardize wages to the "burger dollar", or however much food costs, it doesn't take into account that other necessities can vary quite a bit in relative cost across different countries. I don't think it's common in North America for parking spots to cost more than luxury sports cars, but that's the norm in the big cities of China now.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:51:41 pm by Kolgena »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
If you standardize the wages it won't take long before the standards of living will start to stabilize to the new level. Quality and price of housing should be included in that.

Besides, I'm just talking about a forced global minimum wages and maximum hours. No one would stop higher salaries, and I expect in most normal countries the general expense level would affect the hourly rates negotiated in collective bargaining agreements between the employer organizations and workers' unions.

This would mainly be a measure to prevent unfair, artificial boosting of a country's attractiveness in the workforce market (typically by nonexistent workers' rights and protections).

If you're enabling companies to "hire" people to work 100 hours a week at 50 cent/hour rate, of course it seems more attractive choice than only being allowed to work people 50 hours a week at 5 USD/hr*. But, the only ones to benefit from this are the companies that get cheap production workers, and even then I would argue the quality of work will surely be questionable.

One could make a case that the host countries benefit from this economically - but I think it actually hinders their development (in addition to being ethically very questionable) and is actually only beneficial in comparison to other countries at similar economical situation. So, in the Far East you have a situation where  countries are basically competing with each other on which one can offer the cheapest workforce and thus attract most foreign businesses and foreign capital.

If the Western nations started to defect from workers' rights, we could also provide a lot more jobs because companies could produce stuff here just as cheaply (at least as far as workforce is concerned). But the human price of doing that would be unacceptable...


*I'm just pulling numbers from my arse here, I have no idea what a good global minimum wage would actually be. And the maximum hours I took from 10 hours * 5 days, which is probably very low on global scale...
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
im convinced that our welfare systems spend more money on bureaucracy than on actually helping the poor. i kinda think the whole system needs to be dismantled and replaced with a negative income tax type system.

This. NIT seems to make a lot of sense to me, it is a continuous system with no hard transitions and would make even minimum wage obsolete. A few years ago government in my country wanted to implement it in all its glory, but then the government fell for unrelated reasons and it didnt pan out. It would certainly be an interesting experiment, at least.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Except it's totally false, the notion "welfare systems spend more money on bureaucracy than on actually helping the poor". This discussion has suffered enough for the constant invention of bull****. People make stuff up and then proudly proclaim "see, this is the real problem". As if we don't live in the internet age.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
I figure long term able bodied welfare recipients should either attend educational workshops or work in civil service work gangs.  In addition the minimum wage needs to be raised to a point that folks are self sufficient or they can receive some type of subsidy to make it so.  Employment should always be more economically productive the welfare, and the system should always be actively trying to place people back into the work force, or at the very least contributing back in some way.
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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Quote
Employment should always be more economically productive the welfare, and the system should always be actively trying to place people back into the work force, or at the very least contributing back in some way.

The Dutch already do this. I am currently on welfare (and it sucks), it's 75% of the minimum loan, and there's a lot of methods available to get people working (even for a short while untill I get studying again, at which point I get an entirely different subsidy).

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Somewhere Locke, Rousseau, et al. are rolling over in their graves from some of these dismissals of the social contract concept.

Mongoose wins the thread.  I love the quasi-libertarian arguments that all ignore the fathers/precurors of libertarianism.

Government and the revenues that pay for it - taxation - are an obligation of the social contract.  It's a bill, not theft.  You can choose not to pay the bill, but generally the only way to do that is to avoid receiving the service, or remove yourself from the reach of the collection's agency - on both counts, I hear Somalia is nice if you don't like pesky things like public services, rule of law, and taxes.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Except it's totally false, the notion "welfare systems spend more money on bureaucracy than on actually helping the poor". This discussion has suffered enough for the constant invention of bull****. People make stuff up and then proudly proclaim "see, this is the real problem". As if we don't live in the internet age.

you obviously dont live in the usa. im sure other countries do with less.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
citation needed for your bs.


else whatever.

endif.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
http://feedingamerica.org/how-we-fight-hunger/programs-and-services/public-assistance-programs/supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program/snap-myths-realities.aspx

Quote
SNAP error rates declined by 57% since FY2000, from 8.91% in FY2000 to a record low of 3.80% in FY2011. The accuracy rate of 96.2% (FY2011) is an all-time program high and is considerably higher than other major benefit programs, for example Medicare fee-for-service (91.5%) or Medicare Advantage Part C (88.6%).

Two-thirds of all SNAP payment errors are a result of caseworker error. Nearly one-fifth are underpayments, which occur when eligible participants receive less in benefits than they are eligible to receive.

The national rate of food stamp trafficking declined from about 3.8 cents per dollar of benefits redeemed in 1993 to about 1.3 cent per dollar during the years 2009 to 2011.[ix] As you may have read in local news, USDA is aggressively fighting trafficking, but while there are individual cases of program abuse, for every one instance of fraud, there are hundreds of stories of heartbreaking need.

Quote
SNAP benefits don’t last most participants the whole month. 90% of SNAP benefits are redeemed by the third week of the month, and 58% of food bank clients currently receiving SNAP benefits turn to food banks for assistance at least 6 months out of the year.
The average monthly SNAP benefit per person is $133.85, or less than $1.50 per person, per meal.
Only 57% of food insecure individuals are income-eligible for SNAP, and 26% are not income-eligible for any federal food assistance.

Quote
Given SNAP’s exceptional efficiency, it is simply not possible to achieve significant savings without directly impacting participants. About 95 percent of federal SNAP spending goes directly to benefits and the remaining spending covers important services like employment and training services that help participants move from welfare to work, nutrition education that empowers individuals to make healthy choices on a limited budget, and federal oversight and trafficking prevention for the roughly 200,000 retail stores that accept SNAP benefits.

Just some facts about the food stamps program in the US since there is a notable lack of citations.
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Oh snap!

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
people who run out of food stamps just dont know how to ****ing cook.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
people who get raped just don't know how not to dress provocatively
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Offline Kolgena

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
people who run out of food stamps just dont know how to ****ing cook.

Ironically, eating mcdonalds 24/7 is substantially cheaper than buying fresh groceries from the cheapest store and cooking from scratch (Superstore/No Frills tier). So... It's actually "cheaper" to never cook, ever. Especially if you consider costs you save in dishwater and electricity for stoves.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
Until you get diabetes.
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Offline pecenipicek

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Re: An interesting view on welfare, poverty and inequality
people who run out of food stamps just dont know how to ****ing cook.

Ironically, eating mcdonalds 24/7 is substantially cheaper than buying fresh groceries from the cheapest store and cooking from scratch (Superstore/No Frills tier). So... It's actually "cheaper" to never cook, ever. Especially if you consider costs you save in dishwater and electricity for stoves.
Mostly in 'murica tho.
for the same amount of money a big mac menu costs here (in croatia), roughly 6-7$, i can get 400gr of minced meat for roughly 3$, 5-8 hamburger buns for $2, 200gr of cheese for 2$, a whole lettuce for 1$, whatever other condiments for similar amount. my mrs and i usually make around 6 hamburgers for that amount of money. with everything other than meat left over.

also, thank the satan that the greens arent too horribly expensive here, so its cheaper to eat "green" :p
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