Author Topic: Western vs Eastern Mech designs  (Read 5522 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Western vs Eastern Mech designs
I'm no fan of Hawken's mechs, but Gundam has got to be the king of stupid-looking mechs.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Minecraft
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Really?  I think the classic Gundam designs are pretty much timeless.  Hell, they're usually the first thing I think of when I see the word "mech."

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • Moderator
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Not to mention that some of the BattleTech designs, particularly from 3058 are really egregious.  Ever seen a Blood Kite?  Jesus that thing is ugly.

How does it even move?

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Magnets.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Really?  I think the classic Gundam designs are pretty much timeless.  Hell, they're usually the first thing I think of when I see the word "mech."
I tend to hate the Eastern style of mechs, and Gundam is pretty much the poster boy for everything I hate about them.  Only thing worse is Macross and Robotech's transforming crap.

Do keep in mind you're talking to a guy who has the GDI Titan as one of his all-time favorite mechs.


 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
That GDI titan is like the most boring, blocky and bland mech ever. It doesnt even look practical. But that seems to be the trend when people hate on eastern styles of mechs.

Really?  I think the classic Gundam designs are pretty much timeless.  Hell, they're usually the first thing I think of when I see the word "mech."
I agree
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
GDI Mechs by Caterpillar!

Gundam has some pretty iconic suits.  A lot of the later shows went for broke with flamboyant designs, loading everything down with ridiculous wings, fins and weapons but most of the classic designs from the UC timeline are pretty good.  The MS-06 Zaku II or RX-79G for example are nice practical suits. 
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
That GDI titan is like the most boring, blocky and bland mech ever. It doesnt even look practical. But that seems to be the trend when people hate on eastern styles of mechs.
You and I have different ideas about what practical means, because I think most eastern mechs look impractical as hell, packed with stupid design decisions with overly humanoid shape and movement.  Christ, some of them use swords!  Very picture of form over function.

I like my mechs when they look and feel like walking tanks, not like scaled-up flamboyant power armor.

I can believe that the Titan could be an actual military vehicle.  I find it exceedingy difficult to believe most Gundam or Macross mechs could be.

Just my personal taste.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:24:00 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
No, we don't really. I never claimed anywhere that I think eastern mechs are practical either.
But 'walking tanks' are dumb in the way that you might as well use normal tanks then. Because they will do everything better. I could name a whole load of things about the GTI Titan that makes it a walking waste of resources in any kind of 'realistic' setting. But that's pretty much pointless because mechs are completely based on the rule of cool anyway. No matter the setting.

Muv luv for example, does a good job of justifying why they use TSF against the beta. Still when you get down to it you can point plenty of things that just 'don't make sense'. but **** that **** bro, we like mechs because they are cool. A setting pretty much always needs to come up with some form of justification to make mechs work in their universe, cause under the normal laws of physics they simply don't in any kind of cost effective matter.

But anyway, what gets me is whenever I see someone hating on eastern mech designs it always comes back to "I like my mechs blocky, because its 'realistic' or 'practical'" and then they point out the most boring and bland blocky designs that are supposedly 'good mechs' while all that eastern stuff is 'so dumb because they dance around with samurai swords and ****'. (In short, exactly what you did here)
So narrow minded, I can't stand it.

GDI Mechs by Caterpillar!

Gundam has some pretty iconic suits.  A lot of the later shows went for broke with flamboyant designs, loading everything down with ridiculous wings, fins and weapons but most of the classic designs from the UC timeline are pretty good.  The MS-06 Zaku II or RX-79G for example are nice practical suits. 
But for a lot of the good designs, there is also retarded **** from Zeon (mostly their aquatic suits), like http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/msm-10.htm or http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/msm-03.htm and http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msv/msm-04g.htm :p
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:27:56 am by Spoon »
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
No arguments whatsoever about the impracticality of mechs.  But no, walking tanks are no dumber than scaled-up power armor.  They're both stupid ideas in reality.  However, I don't accept the premise that because neither would work in real life, rule of cool trumps everything and the most ludicrous concepts are suddenly just fine.  First off, "cool" is different for everyone.  Second, I think the walking tank style feels more practical.  That feeling of practicality makes it significantly more believable (and therefore cooler) to me. 

It's not narrow-minded.  It's just personal taste.  I don't like it when mechs look and behave like big people wearing fancy power armor.  I don't like it when 100-foot mechs twirl around with swords and handheld guns.  I don't like it when mechs transform into jets.  I can't suspend my disbelief that much.  I think it looks stupid and I don't enjoy watching it.  You do?  Great.  Good for you.  Just because someone doesn't like what you like doesn't mean that person is narrow-minded.  It is in fact perfectly possible for rational, open-minded people to dislike your precious anime mechs.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 11:25:37 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
I didn't like Gundams mobile suits and now I like them. They are a really good fit for the narrative and combat design of their stories.

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
I think part of it is anime in a lot of cases holds onto the Japanese cultural ideal that the individual can play a pivotal role in warfare.  The lone samurai/mobile suit pilot can turn the tide of battle.  Therefore their protagonist machines have the weaponry and prowess to win the whole conflict by itself.  Much of that chivalric romanticism was beaten out of western culture by events such as the Great War hence most western mechs are more a cog in the combined arms war machine feel.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Considering the narrative and combat design was written around them...
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Considering the narrative and combat design was written around them...

It wasn't, though! This is one of the interesting things about Gundam.

I think part of it is anime in a lot of cases holds onto the Japanese cultural ideal that the individual can play a pivotal role in warfare.  The lone samurai/mobile suit pilot can turn the tide of battle.  Therefore their protagonist machines have the weaponry and prowess to win the whole conflict by itself.  Much of that chivalric romanticism was beaten out of western culture by events such as the Great War hence most western mechs are more a cog in the combined arms war machine feel.

And this too - Gundam was actually a big step away from this.

 

Offline Spoon

  • 212
  • ヾ(´︶`♡)ノ
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
But no, walking tanks are no dumber than scaled-up power armor.
They actually are. Because if you have the magitech and the disregard for real life physics going for you, why would you not want to make a highly mobile suit that can be used in a whole load of situations? Walking tanks are just big slow targets that dont do anything better than normal tanks, aside from being bigger targets. Their usability pretty much ends with being a siege breaker that draws a load of fire. Whereas a scaled up power armor has far more utility going for them.

However, I don't accept the premise that because neither would work in real life, rule of cool trumps everything and the most ludicrous concepts are suddenly just fine.  First off, "cool" is different for everyone.  Second, I think the walking tank style feels more practical.  That feeling of practicality makes it significantly more believable (and therefore cooler) to me.
Well thats your opinion and you are definitely entitled to it. There's no use arguing about taste in that regard.

It's not narrow-minded.  It's just personal taste.  I don't like it when mechs look and behave like big people wearing fancy power armor.  I don't like it when 100-foot mechs twirl around with swords and handheld guns. I don't like it when mechs transform into jets.  I can't suspend my disbelief that much.  I think it looks stupid and I don't enjoy watching it.  You do?  Great.  Good for you.  Just because someone doesn't like what you like doesn't mean that person is narrow-minded.  It is in fact perfectly possible for rational, open-minded people to dislike your precious anime mechs.

This is what bugs me so much and I see every 'eastern mech style hater' use this argument about 'hurr twirling around with swords'. And it pretty much always comes down to 'I have seen very little about the subject but have already made up my mind about it'. Broad generalizations. I'm calling you narrow/close minded because of that. Yes, that's an assumption on my part, but I've been in so many of these arguments and 99% of the time its exactly that.

Besides 'eastern mechs' in itself is exactly one of those broad generalizations that doesn't work. The mobile suits in 08th ms team had a lot of weight to them and relatively little mobility when you compare them to something far more fancy like an average suit out of Gundam 00 or Seed. And the mechs in Break Blade feel far more like heavy knights, no verniers or beam rifles or anything. They are wacking away at each other with swords and claws (among those gas powered guns) and they feel incredibly heavy due to the excellent animation. On the otherside you have super robots like gunbuster etc that demolish armies and fleets with a stellar amount of beams and super attacks.
There is a huge amount of variatie in mechs there that you can't simply put under a single label. It's kind of a waste that you just write everything off as 'too stupid', and don't bother looking for the stuff that might be up your alley because of your narrow minded view on the topic.

Considering the narrative and combat design was written around them...

It wasn't, though! This is one of the interesting things about Gundam.

I think part of it is anime in a lot of cases holds onto the Japanese cultural ideal that the individual can play a pivotal role in warfare.  The lone samurai/mobile suit pilot can turn the tide of battle.  Therefore their protagonist machines have the weaponry and prowess to win the whole conflict by itself.  Much of that chivalric romanticism was beaten out of western culture by events such as the Great War hence most western mechs are more a cog in the combined arms war machine feel.

And this too - Gundam was actually a big step away from this.
Battuta is very correct on this.
The original gundam was pretty much the first in the 'real' robot genre, in that the gundam was in fact just a cog in the machine. The RX78-2 didn't single handedly win the war for the federation. Hell, Amuro wasn't even the top scoring ace. What won the war for the Federation was their vast resources and their large airfleet and space navy. The Federation actually only started producing mobile suits of their own very late into the one year war. They were turning the tide before that with Type-61 tanks and **** like tin cods and manta rays.
It's not like all the super robot shows that were airing back then, where a single 'samurai' super robot was protecting the earth from all the dangers alone.

Anyway, StarSlayer is pretty correct about the whole samurai thing though. While it doesn't necessarily always relate to gundam (hell, most of the characters in gundam arent even japanese to begin with), it is definitely a theme you see in a whole bunch of mecha shows.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
But no, walking tanks are no dumber than scaled-up power armor.
They actually are. Because if you have the magitech and the disregard for real life physics going for you, why would you not want to make a highly mobile suit that can be used in a whole load of situations? Walking tanks are just big slow targets that dont do anything better than normal tanks, aside from being bigger targets. Their usability pretty much ends with being a siege breaker that draws a load of fire. Whereas a scaled up power armor has far more utility going for them.
So it's ok if physics are altered to make the eastern power armor style viable, but you can't do that for the walking tank style because then you can just use tanks.   Ok then. 

Flying mechs don't do anything better than planes, because a plane specialised for being a plane (or spaceship) won't waste any weight on legs and arms.  And because they make concessions for flight they won't be as good as tanks either, because they need to waste space on flight engines and be light enough to fly.  Or light enough to move around nimbly.

I'm sure you can come up with fancy SF rationalisations for why they work, but guess what?  You can do the same thing for the walking tank style.  Whether that's enough to satisfy you is a matter of personal taste, so stop throwing your opinion around as though it's fact.

This is what bugs me so much and I see every 'eastern mech style hater' use this argument about 'hurr twirling around with swords'. And it pretty much always comes down to 'I have seen very little about the subject but have already made up my mind about it'. Broad generalizations. I'm calling you narrow/close minded because of that. Yes, that's an assumption on my part, but I've been in so many of these arguments and 99% of the time its exactly that.

Besides 'eastern mechs' in itself is exactly one of those broad generalizations that doesn't work. The mobile suits in 08th ms team had a lot of weight to them and relatively little mobility when you compare them to something far more fancy like an average suit out of Gundam 00 or Seed. And the mechs in Break Blade feel far more like heavy knights, no verniers or beam rifles or anything. They are wacking away at each other with swords and claws (among those gas powered guns) and they feel incredibly heavy due to the excellent animation. On the otherside you have super robots like gunbuster etc that demolish armies and fleets with a stellar amount of beams and super attacks.
There is a huge amount of variatie in mechs there that you can't simply put under a single label. It's kind of a waste that you just write everything off as 'too stupid', and don't bother looking for the stuff that might be up your alley because of your narrow minded view on the topic.
Ah, the typical anime fan argument when faced with someone who doesn't like the art.  "Everyone must love anime, and if you don't, you haven't seen enough."  It's a pathetic rationalisation so you don't have to face the fact that what you like isn't objectively good.

I can't stand the general big power armor look.  I hate it.  I've seen plenty of eastern mech designs from a variety of sources, and there are some  I like (some of the ones that look more like or are battletech mechs, for instance), the ones I've hated have almost always had the same thing in common: they look like big suits of power armor usually with handheld weapons that are made to look like infantry rifles (fun fact: I disliked the mechs in Cameron's Avatar for the same reason).  Often, they'll be glorified and just plain better than everything else purely because they're mechs. 

Here's it put simply and specifically:  If the mech looks and moves like a scaled up person in a suit, I'm almost certainly going to dislike it.  The more flamboyant it is, the more I'll hate it.  Don't try to weaken my opinion by saying "oh you just haven't seen enough".  I have.  I still don't like them, and it's not because I'm narrow-minded.  Your argument boils down to "you're narrow-minded because you don't like the stuff I like". 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 01:16:14 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
Guys? If you want to have this argument, can you please take care not to escalate it any further?
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
You're both arguing about a matter of personal aesthetics. Nothing meaningful can come of it.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
I seem to recall battletech unseen coming from somewhere... 

 :P
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Western vs Eastern Mech designs
And I'm quite fond of some of the Unseen.  Warhammer and Rifleman, for instance.