Author Topic: PSA: Amazon considered harmful  (Read 6338 times)

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Offline The E

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PSA: Amazon considered harmful
If you're wired into the book publishing news circle, you might have seen this already, but here's the deal:
Amazon are being huge dicks right now just so they can squeeze a few more dollars out of each book they buy. Basically, in order to secure a better deal for books made by Hachette (a french imprint which is unbelievably huge and influential; if you've been buying bestsellers, or any book from SF imprints like Orbit, you've been buying Hachette product), they've intentionally delayed delivery of books, delisted books and are not offering preorders for these books.

This, frankly, is just bull**** bullying. It's not even bull**** bullying for the customer's sake; it's not like any of the savings Amazon wishes to make is being converted into lower prices for us customers, everything here is just done for the shareholder's bottom line.

So yeah, if you find yourself in a situation where you wish to order a book, but Amazon is only shipping it with 3 to 5 weeks of delay, I recommend checking out other bookstores with less dickish corporate policies, who may be able and willing to procure those same books much faster.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
That's why I have absolutely no love for corporations in general. Especially not for those that act like this. If the only place to buy a book would be Amazon, I'd rather pirate it. They should not be allowed to get away with this. Sadly, with people being people, they'll buy on Amazon anyway, and they won't register a dent in profits. I hate when they do that, that's betrayal of their customers, and if hell exists, the lowest, worst circle has to be meant for traitors.

Really, in general, I believe that authors should, when possible, self-publish e-book variants of their works. Setting their own price, their own terms and most importantly, getting the full cut from the sale. Paperback edition could become available after a while, if the book is popular enough, or simply be printed on demand (and an appropriate price increase). I hope that someday, the very concept of publisher who does nothing but rake in profits from authors they publish will become obsolete thanks to digital distribution.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Really, in general, I believe that authors should, when possible, self-publish e-book variants of their works. Setting their own price, their own terms and most importantly, getting the full cut from the sale. Paperback edition could become available after a while, if the book is popular enough, or simply be printed on demand (and an appropriate price increase). I hope that someday, the very concept of publisher who does nothing but rake in profits from authors they publish will become obsolete thanks to digital distribution.

You don't know a damn thing about the publishing process or what's actually important to authors. This entire paragraph is predicated on a fundamental misunderstanding of the system; ironically, it is essentially a set of pro-Amazon talking points. This is the argument Amazon uses to justify its predatory tactics.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:35:53 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Amazon is really, really good to consumers (and it probably will remain so at least in the near mid term, since it's a big part of their culture) and really, really, really terrible for content creators.

If you give a **** about the future of writing, and you want to avoid an awful oligopolist monoculture, don't support Amazon.

 
Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Really, in general, I believe that authors should, when possible, self-publish e-book variants of their works. Setting their own price, their own terms and most importantly, getting the full cut from the sale. Paperback edition could become available after a while, if the book is popular enough, or simply be printed on demand (and an appropriate price increase). I hope that someday, the very concept of publisher who does nothing but rake in profits from authors they publish will become obsolete thanks to digital distribution.

You don't know a damn thing about the publishing process or what's actually important to authors. This entire paragraph is predicated on a fundamental misunderstanding of the system; ironically, it is essentially a set of pro-Amazon talking points. This is the argument Amazon uses to justify its predatory tactics.

Would you care to eloborate further?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Amazon's publishing strategy is to squeeze traditional publishers out of business so that authors choose to self-publish through Amazon instead. They argue that authors will receive more royalties and publish on their own terms. This is a deceptive claim: Amazon's tactics are consumer-targeted, and they include aggressive price controls.

The idea that publishers 'do nothing but rake in profits from authors they publish' is a testament to how successful Amazon has been at misleading people. Publishers are incredibly valuable resources for authors, and they help authors earn more money than they would on their own. Publishers provide legal assistance, massive production infrastructure, editorial, and advertising.

Self-publishing is a good fit for some authors, in some situations. It is not a good fit for all authors in all situations. It is an extremely time-consuming, ugly process that tears authors away from actually being able to write. A self-published author must invest time and money into getting readers to discover their work, a labor-intensive, stressful, and obnoxious process.

This entire thread is about Amazon targeting a component of traditional publishing, in the process screwing over authors. Clearly, the solution is to get out of traditional publishing and move into the self-publishing ecosystem, dominated by...oh, right, Amazon! Wow, it's almost like someone planned that!

 

Offline The E

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Really, in general, I believe that authors should, when possible, self-publish e-book variants of their works. Setting their own price, their own terms and most importantly, getting the full cut from the sale. Paperback edition could become available after a while, if the book is popular enough, or simply be printed on demand (and an appropriate price increase). I hope that someday, the very concept of publisher who does nothing but rake in profits from authors they publish will become obsolete thanks to digital distribution.

If you want to know what a market dominated by self-publishing looks like, look no further than the iOS or Google Play stores.

I don't know about you, but personally? I don't have the time to sift through a slush pile of barely readable prose to find the occasional gem. That's why publishers exist, to curate the market and make sure that whatever is put to print (or converted to an ebook format) is actually readable, laid out nicely, and sent out to reviewers so that I can make an informed decision on whether to buy or not.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Aren't there ratings and reviews available on such sites? A well-designed store would let you cut out "1-star" or unrated stuff with a 1-2 clicks. Badly formatted, just plain bad and such stuff would get read by a few people and end up with a terrible rating and nasty comments. Steam recently introduced ratings and custom tag system for games, and it seems to be working splendid (I was saved from quite a few fun-looking, but bad/buggy games thanks to it).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
You're not only pushing for Amazon's solution, you're pushing for it without any actual experience using it? Not a strong case.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
The idea that publishers 'do nothing but rake in profits from authors they publish' is a testament to how successful Amazon has been at misleading people. Publishers are incredibly valuable resources for authors, and they help authors earn more money than they would on their own. Publishers provide legal assistance, massive production infrastructure, editorial, and advertising.

Self-publishing is a good fit for some authors, in some situations. It is not a good fit for all authors in all situations. It is an extremely time-consuming, ugly process that tears authors away from actually being able to write. A self-published author must invest time and money into getting readers to discover their work, a labor-intensive, stressful, and obnoxious process.

That... publishers are able to provide these servies because they represent multiple if not many authors who could not affort (both in terms of time and money) to get said services for themselves individually

The problem with self-publishing however is not only in the additional workload but also in the lack of an broadly consumer accepted framework for it to work on a large scale; The audience wants convience in their selection of new reading material (and why shouldn't they have it). This means all output must be contextualized in consumer-focused categories; that's why a book store works way differnt than a libary ...

Aren't there ratings and reviews available on such sites? A well-designed store would let you cut out "1-star" or unrated stuff with a 1-2 clicks. Badly formatted, just plain bad and such stuff would get read by a few people and end up with a terrible rating and nasty comments. Steam recently introduced ratings and custom tag system for games, and it seems to be working splendid (I was saved from quite a few fun-looking, but bad/buggy games thanks to it).

Reviews don't always solve it; a lot of problem with reviewing any kind of creative work is that the reviewer might not do a work justice (e.g. by missing a piece of context) or be -as the case with critics often is- of a very specific intellectual preference which cast a work in a very specific light

And of course, that work that doesn't get exposure isn't a sign of bad quality ... there are lots of reason while a work of art can fail it its time and only be later be rediscovered for what it is worth
Not to mention that some times what passes for flawed design might be on purpose; esspecially as purposefuly break from established artistic structure, on the risk of failing to be recognized, has always been a driving force of artistic development


That Amazon is a horrible company to anyone but their consumers however is not news however; e.g. the working conditions in Amazon's distribution infrastructre have been an issue in several countries in recent years
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 03:49:17 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Well, quite a few people I know had problems of various sorts with publishers. For example, a professor on my uni published an SF novel, which costs about 30 zloty (about 10$, converting from our worthless currency). What does he get from it? 2 zlote or so per book sold... Maybe your publisher is less greedy, but it seems that in Poland, author's cut looks like that in most places. To say nothing about publishers sitting on copyright for an out-of-print work, making it impossible (or very hard) to obtain. Happens depressingly often with various music sheets and certain specialist texts.

If there existed some sort of commonly accepted, e-book oriented framework for self-publishing, this could be much more viable. The closest thing to it that exists is Amazon, but it's just plain horrible. Also, it'd be great to have some way to ensure the author gets the majority of the price people pay for the e-book, not measly 10% or so. Right now, the only way to have that would be to run your own web store, which isn't exactly good at reaching out to broad audiences unless you're already popular.
Reviews don't always solve it; a lot of problem with reviewing any kind of creative work is that the reviewer might not do a work justice (e.g. by missing a piece of context) or be -as the case with critics often is- of a very specific intellectual preference which cast a work in a very specific light

And of course, that work that doesn't get exposure isn't a sign of bad quality ... there are lots of reason while a work of art can fail it its time and only be later be rediscovered for what it is worth
Not to mention that some times what passes for flawed design might be on purpose; esspecially as purposefuly break from established artistic structure, on the risk of failing to be recognized, has always been a driving force of artistic development
That isn't only a problem with self-publishing, but with art and reviews in general. You can either trust the reviews, or whatever they write on the back cover. Otherwise, you're not going to know what you'll find in the book until you open it (unless it has a TVTropes page, that is :)). Finding books that are good despite being unpopular was always hard. Reviews and a synopsis are the best you're going to get, no matter how the book is published (indeed, some books that turned out quite good did have trouble finding a publisher).

 
Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Aren't there ratings and reviews available on such sites? A well-designed store would let you cut out "1-star" or unrated stuff with a 1-2 clicks. Badly formatted, just plain bad and such stuff would get read by a few people and end up with a terrible rating and nasty comments. Steam recently introduced ratings and custom tag system for games, and it seems to be working splendid (I was saved from quite a few fun-looking, but bad/buggy games thanks to it).

You're a neoreactionary who thinks absolutist monarchy is the best form of government and you're advocating direct democracy as the optimal way of establishing the value of art. I hope the irony is apparent.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

  

Offline The E

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
You do know that those ratings aren't really important for Steam sales numbers, right? Being on the "new Releases" page is, and right now good titles get drowned out by tons and tons of rereleases, DLC releases, and just new crap that's getting released.

Again, the services performed by Publishers are vital. Getting your book in front of reviewers and other people willing and able to tell people that this book exists and is worth money is not something a self-published author can do easily; By the time you have the contacts and skills to actually pull off the whole self-publishing thing as a sustainable source of income, you will also have the skills to make more money using traditional publishing, because presumably your prose is strong enough to sell in good enough numbers to sustain you for a year or two between releases.

Self-publishing always sounds great. But being a good writer does not mean you are a good businessperson, or a good editor, or a good typesetter (Yes, even in the ebook age, typesetting is still something that needs to be done), or a good art director, or a good marketing person. These are all functions you still have to cover in some form, by doing them yourself or hiring others, and every bit of this means spending time not writing, i. e. not generating something that can be sold.

"The concept of a publisher who does nothing but rake in profits" does not exist in the real world. As Battuta said, you have no clue about what a publisher does, or how the publisher/writer relationship works. Luckily, Charlie Stross has prepared an overview about how the system works. Please read it before reentering that subthread of this discussion.

Well, quite a few people I know had problems of various sorts with publishers. For example, a professor on my uni published an SF novel, which costs about 30 zloty (about 10$, converting from our worthless currency). What does he get from it? 2 zlote or so per book sold... Maybe your publisher is less greedy, but it seems that in Poland, author's cut looks like that in most places. To say nothing about publishers sitting on copyright for an out-of-print work, making it impossible (or very hard) to obtain. Happens depressingly often with various music sheets and certain specialist texts.

The author's cut always seems very low. But, in a normal publishing contract, that's because the bulk of the money has been paid when the contract was signed and the manuscript delivered. See the link above.

Quote
If there existed some sort of commonly accepted, e-book oriented framework for self-publishing, this could be much more viable. The closest thing to it that exists is Amazon, but it's just plain horrible. Also, it'd be great to have some way to ensure the author gets the majority of the price people pay for the e-book, not measly 10% or so. Right now, the only way to have that would be to run your own web store, which isn't exactly good at reaching out to broad audiences unless you're already popular.

The author does get the majority of the money in a self-publishing situation. But, a) the total amount of money is far lower (because of less exposure, an overall lower price, and lower sales numbers) b) a lot of the money will be eaten up by the overhead incurred to make the book (By the time you manage to publish a work, you have already sunk a lot of hours into it, all of which have to be financed in some way), and c) you may be on the hook to pay for that editor you paid to give you feedback on that thing you were writing, the artist who did your cover art, and whoever else you had to pay to get the thing done.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Well, editors are indeed necessary, I give you that. It's impossible to both write a book and "debug" it (as author, you're always biased about your own work). Cover artists too, though that varies depending on the author (I've got a friend who's good at writing and drawing, for example). But for an e-book, do you really need anyone besides the editor? Cover art sure is nice to have, but I've seen plenty of books with plain, monochrome covers (though I admit, buyers often do judge the book by it's cover). Ultimately, you need a text editor to write the text, and a human editor to make it readable. Though I suppose that as a "hobbyist writer" of sorts, I'm unfamiliar with how one actually makes a living by writing books. A businessperson who happens to write a book would have a much easier time self-publishing it than a "dedicated" writer, afterall. For one, not writing isn't much of a hinderance in such case, and "contacts and skills", are, at least in part already set up. I admit my POV is almost certainly skewed towards this (also because I know mostly such "hobbyist writers"), so Battuta is probably right about traditional publishers being better suited for one who actually makes a living by writing.
Aren't there ratings and reviews available on such sites? A well-designed store would let you cut out "1-star" or unrated stuff with a 1-2 clicks. Badly formatted, just plain bad and such stuff would get read by a few people and end up with a terrible rating and nasty comments. Steam recently introduced ratings and custom tag system for games, and it seems to be working splendid (I was saved from quite a few fun-looking, but bad/buggy games thanks to it).

You're a neoreactionary who thinks absolutist monarchy is the best form of government and you're advocating direct democracy as the optimal way of establishing the value of art. I hope the irony is apparent.
Woah, let's not bring politics into this. Politics, religion, science and art should not interfere with each other, as they have little to do with each other. An exception might be made for art drawing inspiration from other fields, but that's it. My political views are separate from my views on art. Ideally, we'd have some sort of way of attaching "weight" to the ratings (so you can see how many art critics left their opinions, and how many author's relatives did) built into system, but it's not necessary, since "serious" critical reviews (the important ones) are often separate from "comments" sections anyway, and that's enough. You look for a work with good comments, then you check if it has good reviews (at least, that's how I check Steam games). Now, it's not a political discussion (nor should it be derailed into one), do you have anything to say about art itself?

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
*snip*
That isn't only a problem with self-publishing, but with art and reviews in general. You can either trust the reviews, or whatever they write on the back cover. Otherwise, you're not going to know what you'll find in the book until you open it (unless it has a TVTropes page, that is :)). Finding books that are good despite being unpopular was always hard. Reviews and a synopsis are the best you're going to get, no matter how the book is published .

The problem is being able to provide a good teaser/review for any given narrative medium that connects to a interally varied (!) audience without deminishing it's effect; just look at the problem movies are having with trailers, teasers and "mystery boxes" as promotinal tools...
what's good a about a book/movie/play might not always be what was advertised; to make effective advertisement for your work is hard work in and by itself, esspecially if you don't want to "break" the work in the process (just look on how the mods in this very forum handle their promotional media)

(indeed, some books that turned out quite good did have trouble finding a publisher)

That isn't always a statement about the quality of the book... Material can struggle to find a publisher for many reasons but it's artistic merit; reasons can range from simple buisness reasons to fashions to censorship

Woah, let's not bring politics into this. Politics, religion, science and art should not interfere with each other, as they have little to do with each other. An exception might be made for art drawing inspiration from other fields, but that's it. My political views are separate from my views on art.

This makes you the strangest human creature I've ever seen... Politics, Science, Art and Religion are the among the great narrative lines which flow together to form everyones distinct comprehensive narrative of the world. As such they are hardly unconnected, esspecially since in your desire to disconnect them you make a political statement about the quality of art (saying "X has nothing to do with politics" makes X subject of Politics by exculding it from the realm of the political, giving also credit to the opposite reaction). It's no coincidence that every major political movement favoured some style of art which supplements their other views, going back to Platos' Politeia (3rd Book, 386a and following).
"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline The E

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
Woah, let's not bring politics into this. Politics, religion, science and art should not interfere with each other, as they have little to do with each other. An exception might be made for art drawing inspiration from other fields, but that's it. My political views are separate from my views on art. Ideally, we'd have some sort of way of attaching "weight" to the ratings (so you can see how many art critics left their opinions, and how many author's relatives did) built into system, but it's not necessary, since "serious" critical reviews (the important ones) are often separate from "comments" sections anyway, and that's enough. You look for a work with good comments, then you check if it has good reviews (at least, that's how I check Steam games). Now, it's not a political discussion (nor should it be derailed into one), do you have anything to say about art itself?

Every single authoritarian regime in the history of the world has exerted at least some control over the arts. To allow free expression, after all, is to allow dissent; Something absolutist regimes cannot cope with for long. Trying to divide arts and politics is futile, since there's a constant dialog between the two, whether you want to ackknowledge it or not.

Quote
Well, editors are indeed necessary, I give you that. It's impossible to both write a book and "debug" it (as author, you're always biased about your own work). Cover artists too, though that varies depending on the author (I've got a friend who's good at writing and drawing, for example). But for an e-book, do you really need anyone besides the editor? Cover art sure is nice to have, but I've seen plenty of books with plain, monochrome covers (though I admit, buyers often do judge the book by it's cover).

Yes. Yes, you absolutely do. Covers, even the small thumbnails Amazon shows you, are important tools for marketing. Selecting a good cover for the right market (There are big differences in what covers are acceptable to the American market vs the kinds of covers preferred in the british or german one, for example). Knowing what those differences are, and understanding how to translate between them, is a vital skill. For an example, look at the covers for Baen books, which are unbelievably (and quite intentionally) cheesy in the US market, to the point where some of them aren't sellable in Europe, because the readers over here expect a very different aesthetic.
Never mind all those other things you seem to have forgotten about, all the marketing and negotiation you have to do so that people know your work is even available for sale.

Quote
Ultimately, you need a text editor to write the text, and a human editor to make it readable. Though I suppose that as a "hobbyist writer" of sorts, I'm unfamiliar with how one actually makes a living by writing books. A businessperson who happens to write a book would have a much easier time self-publishing it than a "dedicated" writer, afterall.

Unless that person has lots of experience in the publishing world, no, he wouldn't. He might be able to do the accounting, but that person would still lack the contacts and experience necessary to organize the workflow to create a book-shaped product. Getting a book published in such a way that it isn't immediately forgotten is a matter of skill, experience and contacts, all three of which have been cultivated by publishing companies over decades if not centuries. Trying to do it all based on your own skills, experience and contacts automatically sets you back.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
So Amazon is the Walmart of the internet? Crap.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
If you give a **** about the future of writing, and you want to avoid an awful oligopolist monoculture, don't support Amazon.

So what are the alternatives?  One of the things I dislike about Kindle eBooks is that it's a closed proprietary format and Amazon can delete books from your library at its whim (as happened a few years back with 1984, of all books).  Is there a popular DRM-free standard that could provide a viable competitor to the Kindle format?

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
The most obvious alternative I can think of is go to the bookstore but I think that might be too difficult for some folks. :rolleyes:

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: PSA: Amazon considered harmful
It's kind of pointless to go to a physical bookstore to get an ebook.