Author Topic: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US  (Read 7136 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/upshot/polarization-is-dividing-american-society-not-just-politics.html?mabReward=RI%3A8&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&region=Footer&module=Recommendation&src=recg&pgtype=article&_r=0

Short version:  It's not just dysfunction among elected representatives, there are now tangible and discrete social and lifestyle differences between supporters of the two parties that mean they are unlikely to ever vote for the other side, and independents aren't making up the gaps.
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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
I'm going to ask the standard question I ask whenever I hear political doomsaying: were things actually any better in the past?
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
@Phantom Hoover: To tell the truth, no. As an American citizen I've seen things be this way for a decade. I'm even a mild example myself.
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline Nuke

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
way i see it the polarization seems to make it hard for politicians to get anything done. you get all this tug of war politics. changing the law to suit the beliefs of whatever party is in power at the time, and then changing it back when the other party takes over. this seems to take precedence over solving national crises as they arise.

are things getting better? whats better? and who is it better for? what makes you think it will stay that way when the other party takes over? its an oscillation. just because the current president thinks the way you do doesn't mean the next one wont turn everything in its head.

gay marriage is a good example of this. when bush was running things, states were banning gay marriage left and right. now that the democrats run the white house, states are pushing for pro lgbt legislation. imagine whats going to happen when the republicans take over again.

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
The design of the American political system incentivizes elite polarization and legislative gridlock. It's the optimal strategy to win elections.

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
The design of the American political system incentivizes elite polarization and legislative gridlock. It's the optimal strategy to win elections.

I wonder if the election situation is the cause or just the symptom?

Basically, while I don't have any problem with the study itself, it's really just giving stats and numbers to something most Americans already accept as the natural result of living with people who disagree with you over basic moral principles. Most of the "self-segregating" tendencies seem fairly natural given the significance of the disagreements.

About the only thing said here that I disagree with is the sentiment that it's something to freak out about (and I'm not entirely sure that's what MP-Ryan was getting at, so correct me if I'm wrong).
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

InsaneBaron's Fun-to-Read Reviews!
Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius - Silent Threat: Reborn - Operation Templar - Sync, Transcend, Windmills - The Antagonist - Inferno, Inferno: Alliance

 
Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
It's not that way in other places though. The UK is pretty polarised by European standards and we have (well... had) a credible third party, and a number of regional and niche parties that regularly win positions of power. It's not an inevitable symptom of the human condition or anything.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
The US election system not only polarizes public opinion and party policy, it does so to such an extent that the US political culture could be better looked at in the frame of two separate political cultures that happen to share a single election system.  That sort of extent manifests itself in terms of not only self-segregation but also enforced segregation.  I'm in the ass end of nowhere, South Dakota, and there's a group of prairie dog hunters out here who have determined my political affiliation (or rather, my disaffilition with their own party) by my awkward silences when they crack jokes about assassinating the president, and make a point to take jabs at what they assume to be my beliefs whenever they walk through.

I can hear the argument already that it's just because rural South Dakota is a red state, but that in itself is the problem: we classify states and towns and neighborhoods and people by their political views above several much more meaningful designations.

 

Offline BrotherBryon

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
At least the UK can have more than 2 parties, in the US that is no longer possible. There is just too much money in the 2 parties that should a third ever try to rise they either squash or absorb it before it can become a threat to them. The 2 party system is nothing more than 2 titan businesses competing for control over a market, they won't tolerate a third competitor.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
relevant xkcd is relevant:

http://xkcd.com/1127/

not quite up to date bit it is a damn good infographic.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 09:45:54 pm by Nuke »
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
So... this recent stuff with Cantor losing to the tea party guy despite spending ~10x as much campaigning could be good news. At least insofar as that it proves that a bigger advertising budget doesn't necessarily win elections.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
on one hand thats good news. people are getting tired of politicians who dont know how to spend money effectively. then again, he is a tea party candidate. doing the wrong thing for the right reasons i guess.
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Offline BrotherBryon

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
Cantor has always been an arrogant jackass so it was only a matter of time before they got sick of him and voted him out. The winner didn't win because the people in the district like him better he won because he wasn't Cantor that is literally all there is to it.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
ah dont worry i took my faith in humanity out back and shot it years ago.

nuke all the things.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
It's not that way in other places though. The UK is pretty polarised by European standards and we have (well... had) a credible third party, and a number of regional and niche parties that regularly win positions of power. It's not an inevitable symptom of the human condition or anything.

I agree that it's not an inevitable symptom of humanity. I simply think it's an inevitable result of the extreme disagreements between Americans about matters that seem obvious and vital top both sides.
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

InsaneBaron's Fun-to-Read Reviews!
Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius - Silent Threat: Reborn - Operation Templar - Sync, Transcend, Windmills - The Antagonist - Inferno, Inferno: Alliance

 
Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
I'm going to ask the standard question I ask whenever I hear political doomsaying: were things actually any better in the past?

Maarten van Rossum (dutch Americanologist) has stated that it has been actually steadily getting worse over the last 30 years.

 

Offline Ulala

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
I'm going to ask the standard question I ask whenever I hear political doomsaying: were things actually any better in the past?

In some ways it would seem so. For example, it used to be you could only graduate high school (or sometimes not) and still land a decent job at a decent company and work your way up over the years, buy a house, have a family, retire...
Then you had to go to college to land a decent job at a decent company to do the same as your predecessors...
Now even going to college doesn't mean **** for a lot of people, just a lot of a debt and a lot of people telling them they shouldn't be so lazy and entitled...

Maybe not exactly political, but certainly related.
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Offline The E

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
Maybe not exactly political, but certainly related.

Not really, no. That's a symptom, not the cause, and it is only tangentially related to the issue under discussion in this topic.
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Offline Ulala

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Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
Not really, no. That's a symptom, not the cause, and it is only tangentially related to the issue under discussion in this topic.

The question wasn't about whether it was a symptom or cause, but whether things used to be better than they are now. As one example, I would argue that in terms of money and how much people make in relation to their education, things certainly used to be better (or "easier") than they are now.
I am a revolutionary.

 
Re: Well, this certainly doesn't bode well for the US
It's still one narrow field in which things have, in one interpretation, gotten worse.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.