Author Topic: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?  (Read 8262 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
http://www.utexas.edu/news/2014/06/10/antarctic-glacier-melting/


Thoughts?

This would explain low temperatures whilst the ice is still melting, yes?

 

Offline watsisname

Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Locally, perhaps, but certainly not globally. :)

Bit of interesting physics for you:  Temperature is (generally) constant during phase changes.  If you put a thermometer in a glass containing a mixture of ice and water and leave this out at room temperature, you'll find the thermometer will read 32F/0C through the entire process, up until the moment the last bit of ice melts, at which point the water temperature will finally begin rise to room temperature.  A similar thing holds true for boiling water -- the temperature of the liquid water remains at 212F/100C.

The reason for this is because the phase changes themselves involve transformations of energy -- either forming or breaking bonds between the molecules of whatever substance is involved.  In context of ice in a warming world, this actually does act as a dampener on increasing temperature -- I'm not sure by how much offhand, but you can calculate it based on observed mass-loss rates.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
This news caused a big stink at a far-less-intelligent forum I visit, with the usual suspects trumpeting ZOMG GLOBAL WARMING IS FAKE AFTER ALL!!1

 
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
This news caused a big stink at a far-less-intelligent forum I visit, with the usual suspects trumpeting ZOMG GLOBAL WARMING IS FAKE AFTER ALL!!1

I have yet to see anything to conlusively, unequivocally prove that humans are exclusively or overwhelmingly the cause of any warming phenomenon.  Likewise, I don't subscribe to the mainstream uniformitarianism model concernig geophysical phenomenon.

We're still on the low side of the learning curve on how it all fits together, & climate charletons are whipping up fear & false data, & making a killing off of fools who buy into it.  "Climate change ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!". Pro tip: natural phenomena (eg. climate) tend to be dynamic.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 04:16:47 am by WheelSpin »

 

Offline watsisname

Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
I live in a giant bucket.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
This news caused a big stink at a far-less-intelligent forum I visit, with the usual suspects trumpeting ZOMG GLOBAL WARMING IS FAKE AFTER ALL!!1

I have yet to see anything to conlusively, unequivocally prove that humans are exclusively or overwhelmingly the cause of any warming phenomenon.  Likewise, I don't subscribe to the mainstream uniformitarianism model concernig geophysical phenomenon.

We're still on the low side of the learning curve on how it all fits together, & climate charletons are whipping up fear & false data, & making a killing off of fools who buy into it.  "Climate change ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!". Pro tip: natural phenomena (eg. climate) tend to be dynamic.

Maybe that's because it's been said from the start that humans are NOT exclusively or overwhelmingly the cause of it. It's claimed that human activity accelerates it. I'm not a climatologist, so I cannot say with any certainty whether that is true or not, but common sense suggests to me that pumping millions of tonnes of chemicals into the atmosphere each year cannot be a good thing, if not for climate reasons then at least for health ones.

What worries me more is the concept that, even if we aren't accelerating it, that it is somehow an excuse to not do anything about it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 07:10:57 am by Flipside »

 
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
We're still on the low side of the learning curve on how it all fits together, & climate charletons are whipping up fear & false data, & making a killing off of fools who buy into it.

I always found this to be an interesting line of thought. The opponents of the anthropogenic climate change theories are mainly oil companies, which earn far, far more then all the universities and organizations which have proposed and continue to support the theory. this particular image springs to mind.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Oh, I thought this thread was a place to mix silly posts with serious posts.  Okay, serious post:

Quote
Pro tip: natural phenomena (eg. climate) tend to be dynamic.

Pro tip:  That's a pretty broadly made statement; if one wants to understand climate changes they must understand mechanisms and timescales.

Over long timescales (billions of years), the Earth's climate has been remarkably stable, even despite the increasing luminosity of the Sun (so-called Faint Young Sun Paradox).  The mechanism behind this is the rock-weathering cycle, which works via a relationship between temperature and rate of removal of atmospheric CO2 by chemical weathering of rocks.

Over shorter timescales, the rock-weathering cycle is too slow to appreciably regulate climate and there have been a number of extreme climate states as a result.  Greatest examples are snow-ball earth events, for which there have been no fewer than three, during which ice extends all the way or very nearly all the way to the Equator.  Everage planetary temperature during such an event is something like 40C colder than today [IIRC; citation needed].  Hard to imagine any life surviving such a thing, but it did (note animals didn't arise until after the most recent snowball ~700MYa). 
The mechanism for snowball events is a runaway ice-albedo feedback effect, which requires a particular configuration of continental landmasses.  The escape mechanism is the ensuing failure of the rock-weathering cycle, allowing build-up of volcanic CO2.  And extreme hot-house environment with global temperatures so high as to make the arctic seem tropical naturally follows a snowball for the same reason:  After the ice has melted, CO2 concentrations are still extremely high and it takes time for the rock-weathering cycle to sequester it and re-establish an equilibrium.

On timescales of tens to hundreds of thousands of years, we have the standard glacial cycles.  These are caused by semi-periodic changes in Earth's orbit..

Over the last ~10,000 years, climate has been fairly stable in an inter-glacial period, during which planetary temperature gradually decreases.

Over the last ~100 years, climate has been warming due to increased GHG concentrations, particularly CO2, caused largely by human activities.  If allowed to continue, this is expected to warm the planet by ~2 to ~7 Celsius over a timescale of centuries.  Life on Earth is not known to have experienced a climate change of this character before, and frankly it scares the crap out of a lot of us.  (Not everyone, as I've little doubt further posts here will reveal.)

Again, an understanding of timescales and mechanisms are important.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline watsisname

Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
We're still on the low side of the learning curve on how it all fits together, & climate charletons are whipping up fear & false data, & making a killing off of fools who buy into it.

I always found this to be an interesting line of thought. The opponents of the anthropogenic climate change theories are mainly oil companies, which earn far, far more then all the universities and organizations which have proposed and continue to support the theory. this particular image springs to mind.

It is an interesting notion, possibly true, but I think an unnecessary discussion point if the purpose is to determine who is right in describing what's going on.  All that is required is an understanding of radiative physics, atmospheric chemistry, current influences on Earth's radiation balance (forcings), and which of these forcings are natural or modified by human activity.  The principles relevant to effect of atmosphere's parameters on planetary temperature are multidisciplinary, familiar to those working in fields from geology to astrophysics.

In other words, it's a matter of learning the science, not learning the funding sources.  Reality is not swayed by he who pays the bills.
In my world of sleepers, everything will be erased.
I'll be your religion, your only endless ideal.
Slowly we crawl in the dark.
Swallowed by the seductive night.

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
In other words, it's a matter of learning the science, not learning the funding sources.  Reality is not swayed by he who pays the bills.

QFT

 

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
All that is required is an understanding of radiative physics, atmospheric chemistry, current influences on Earth's radiation balance (forcings), and which of these forcings are natural or modified by human activity.  The principles relevant to effect of atmosphere's parameters on planetary temperature are multidisciplinary, familiar to those working in fields from geology to astrophysics.


This is an excellent point that rarely gets made in the debate about climate change. People get caught up on models and projections and precise impacts - x million tonnes will produce y degrees and z metres of sea level rise - but rarely ask the question of climate drniers: exactly what part of the fundamental science do they believe is wrong? The basic physics of the greenhouse effect? The measurably rising CO2 in the atmosphere? The calculated volumes humans emit? All of these are basic, well established facts - there's no denying them. While I can understand debate about the precise extent to which specific things might be affected, to deny that humans are having any effect at all means denying one of those three basic, fundamental facts. So which is it?
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Unfortunately humans are very good at denying basic scientific facts if it doesn't suit their world view.

To be honest, I've started to lump in climate change deniers with Young Earth Creationists and people who believe in homoeopathy. You can scream at them until you are blue in the face but most of them have already made up their mind that they are correct and "The forces of Satan" or "The Man" or "Ivory Tower Intellectuals" or some other bull**** group is behind everything. 

Fortunately some of them are willing to listen since they've simply been getting information from really bad sources.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
I find it hard to believe that 97% of scientists believe that we are causing climate change. Affecting it? Perhaps. But how much? And is it a bad thing?

Anyways, copied an article about that. Links are in the original article but I can't be arsed to copy them over on my phone.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136

The Myth of the Climate Change '97%'
What is the origin of the false belief—constantly repeated—that almost all scientists agree about global warming?

By JOSEPH BAST And ROY SPENCER
May 26, 2014 7:13 p.m. ET
Last week Secretary of State John Kerry warned graduating students at Boston College of the "crippling consequences" of climate change. "Ninety-seven percent of the world's scientists," he added, "tell us this is urgent."

Where did Mr. Kerry get the 97% figure? Perhaps from his boss, President Obama, who tweeted on May 16 that "Ninety-seven percent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, man-made and dangerous." Or maybe from NASA, which posted (in more measured language) on its website, "Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities."

Yet the assertion that 97% of scientists believe that climate change is a man-made, urgent problem is a fiction. The so-called consensus comes from a handful of surveys and abstract-counting exercises that have been contradicted by more reliable research.

One frequently cited source for the consensus is a 2004 opinion essay published in Science magazine by Naomi Oreskes, a science historian now at Harvard. She claimed to have examined abstracts of 928 articles published in scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and found that 75% supported the view that human activities are responsible for most of the observed warming over the previous 50 years while none directly dissented.

Ms. Oreskes's definition of consensus covered "man-made" but left out "dangerous"—and scores of articles by prominent scientists such as Richard Lindzen, John Christy, Sherwood Idso and Patrick Michaels, who question the consensus, were excluded. The methodology is also flawed. A study published earlier this year in Nature noted that abstracts of academic papers often contain claims that aren't substantiated in the papers.

Another widely cited source for the consensus view is a 2009 article in "Eos, Transactions American Geophysical Union" by Maggie Kendall Zimmerman, a student at the University of Illinois, and her master's thesis adviser Peter Doran. It reported the results of a two-question online survey of selected scientists. Mr. Doran and Ms. Zimmerman claimed "97 percent of climate scientists agree" that global temperatures have risen and that humans are a significant contributing factor.

The survey's questions don't reveal much of interest. Most scientists who are skeptical of catastrophic global warming nevertheless would answer "yes" to both questions. The survey was silent on whether the human impact is large enough to constitute a problem. Nor did it include solar scientists, space scientists, cosmologists, physicists, meteorologists or astronomers, who are the scientists most likely to be aware of natural causes of climate change.

The "97 percent" figure in the Zimmerman/Doran survey represents the views of only 79 respondents who listed climate science as an area of expertise and said they published more than half of their recent peer-reviewed papers on climate change. Seventy-nine scientists—of the 3,146 who responded to the survey—does not a consensus make.

In 2010, William R. Love Anderegg, then a student at Stanford University, used Google Scholar to identify the views of the most prolific writers on climate change. His findings were published in Proceedings of the National Academies of Sciences. Mr. Love Anderegg found that 97% to 98% of the 200 most prolific writers on climate change believe "anthropogenic greenhouse gases have been responsible for 'most' of the 'unequivocal' warming." There was no mention of how dangerous this climate change might be; and, of course, 200 researchers out of the thousands who have contributed to the climate science debate is not evidence of consensus.

In 2013, John Cook, an Australia-based blogger, and some of his friends reviewed abstracts of peer-reviewed papers published from 1991 to 2011. Mr. Cook reported that 97% of those who stated a position explicitly or implicitly suggest that human activity is responsible for some warming. His findings were published in Environmental Research Letters.

Mr. Cook's work was quickly debunked. In Science and Education in August 2013, for example, David R. Legates (a professor of geography at the University of Delaware and former director of its Center for Climatic Research) and three coauthors reviewed the same papers as did Mr. Cook and found "only 41 papers—0.3 percent of all 11,944 abstracts or 1.0 percent of the 4,014 expressing an opinion, and not 97.1 percent—had been found to endorse" the claim that human activity is causing most of the current warming. Elsewhere, climate scientists including Craig Idso, Nicola Scafetta, Nir J. Shaviv and Nils- Axel Morner, whose research questions the alleged consensus, protested that Mr. Cook ignored or misrepresented their work.

Rigorous international surveys conducted by German scientists Dennis Bray and Hans von Storch —most recently published in Environmental Science & Policy in 2010—have found that most climate scientists disagree with the consensus on key issues such as the reliability of climate data and computer models. They do not believe that climate processes such as cloud formation and precipitation are sufficiently understood to predict future climate change.

Surveys of meteorologists repeatedly find a majority oppose the alleged consensus. Only 39.5% of 1,854 American Meteorological Society members who responded to a survey in 2012 said man-made global warming is dangerous.

Finally, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change—which claims to speak for more than 2,500 scientists—is probably the most frequently cited source for the consensus. Its latest report claims that "human interference with the climate system is occurring, and climate change poses risks for human and natural systems." Yet relatively few have either written on or reviewed research having to do with the key question: How much of the temperature increase and other climate changes observed in the 20th century was caused by man-made greenhouse-gas emissions? The IPCC lists only 41 authors and editors of the relevant chapter of the Fifth Assessment Report addressing "anthropogenic and natural radiative forcing."

Of the various petitions on global warming circulated for signatures by scientists, the one by the Petition Project, a group of physicists and physical chemists based in La Jolla, Calif., has by far the most signatures—more than 31,000 (more than 9,000 with a Ph.D.). It was most recently published in 2009, and most signers were added or reaffirmed since 2007. The petition states that "there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of . . . carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate."

We could go on, but the larger point is plain. There is no basis for the claim that 97% of scientists believe that man-made climate change is a dangerous problem.

Mr. Bast is president of the Heartland Institute. Dr. Spencer is a principal research scientist for the University of Alabama in Huntsville and the U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer on NASA's Aqua satellite.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
I suppose the way I see it is, if I'm sitting behind a bunch of sandbags hoping that the floodwater isn't going to destroy my home, or cut off by increasingly worse winters, or my village has just been buried by a freak mudslide bought on by unseasonal rainstorms, the least of my concerns is whether this is man-made trend or not, I'm more concerned about action than blame, but then, blame is a lot cheaper than action from a Governmental point of view.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 01:15:27 am by Flipside »

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Point. And, regardless of what is to blame, if indeed the effects of CO2 are harmful, wouldn't it be easier to actively remove CO2 than try and control it by reducing emissions? Instead of reducing the output, say, instead try scrubbing the output or maybe scrubbing the air. Of course, that's if it is indeed necessary to do so.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
That's the thing for me, I don't doubt that Climate Change is happening, and may have been happening all the time, but as humanity spreads and builds, the effects of that change have become an increasing issue. A few centuries ago, if the river you lived near developed a flood plain where your village was, you just up and moved the village, there's plenty of Archeological evidence of societies being displaced by environmental change throughout history.

Nowadays though, that's not so easy, we build with a far more permanent residence in mind, and so rather than avoid the problem, we are forced to actually deal with it. The trouble is we've got caught up in the minutiae of it all, the question of whether we are accelerating it is, whilst worthy of concern, not really the primary focus of the problem, the bigger question is how do we make the way we live compatible with the environment we live in.

As I've said before, I have no idea whether we are accelerating it or not, the arguments and counter-arguments are beyond me now, but we'd do better emulating countries like the Netherlands or Japan, who deal first with the impact of the change (because they live in areas that are environment knife-edges).

As far as CO2 is concerned, it can't really hurt to clean up after ourselves, it might have an impact, it might not, but this is one of those situations where you think to yourself that there has to be a price to pay for pumping all this stuff out at one point or another, whether that price is an impact on climate, air purity, health or anything else.

Besides, I love the idea of massive dirigibles floating through the atmosphere sucking up CO2 to clean the air, when I see one of those, I'll know I'm in the future ;)

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Point. And, regardless of what is to blame, if indeed the effects of CO2 are harmful, wouldn't it be easier to actively remove CO2 than try and control it by reducing emissions?

And who exactly is going to pay for that? All the really cheap, easy solutions are already being used.

I find it hard to believe that 97% of scientists believe that we are causing climate change.

[SNIP]

And here we see a classic argument. Pick a tiny, unimportant facet of the discussion. One that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual science involved and try to make the argument about that as if it somehow changes things. I'm reminded of someone standing on train tracks giving an explanation of why shouting "Watch out for the locomotive!" is wrong instead of moving out of the way of the train.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 04:51:03 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline jr2

  • The Mail Man
  • 212
  • It's prounounced jayartoo 0x6A7232
    • Steam
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
See here, if that point is irrelevant, why make it in the first place? I'm just going with the assumption that the 97% claim was made to give other arguments relevancy. "you can't argue with 97% of scientists! Obviously I'm right and you're full of it!"

Ah, but I'm not arguing with 97%of scientists! :P

  
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Point. And, regardless of what is to blame, if indeed the effects of CO2 are harmful, wouldn't it be easier to actively remove CO2 than try and control it by reducing emissions?

Provided that we

1) Find an aerosol which can scrub CO2 from the athmosphere
2) Does not affect the climate in any way beyond that goal
3) Does not linger after we have scrubbed enough CO2 from the athmosphere
4) Find a method which can deploy this aerosol
5) Find people who will deploy this method
6) deal with the political fallout of handing devices which are capable of greatly affecting the world on a global level to somoene who wants to use it as area denial weapons.

Once we have dealt with those issues...

... It's probably already too late and we will have to devise a better more effective method. Even though we've effectively been terraforming for the past 200 years without us realizing it, terraforming is a science which is still in it's very, very early stages. At this point, we simply do not know if such a technology would even be possible, let alone effective.

And even if it is possible, trying to reduce emissions would make the process far easier, instead of triggering this "climate race" between the CO2-emittors and the counteractors.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 07:06:01 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: underwater volcanoes cause (at least some) of the glacier melting?
Ultimately, does it really matter all that much whether climate change is due to humanity's actions? Fact of the matter is that climate change is real, and we do need to figure out ways to deal with the consequences.

Also, jr2, citing articles by the President of the Heartland Institute, which is so deeply invested in making climate change a discussion about ideology rather than facts, does not exactly make your claims more credible.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 07:06:21 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns