Author Topic: On Tie Games and Injury Time  (Read 14319 times)

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Offline Mongoose

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
However, I took Mikes's statement to mean that a team would immediately be happy with a hard-fought loss, which to me is an alien concept.

That's weird. It happens all the time. You've never lost a board game at a party and said "Man, that was an amazing fight?" Never finished a multiplayer match and said "Awww, man, we lost but that was so cool." Or, more directly, never watched a postgame interview and heard "They just outplayed us. They brought it and we didn't. It was a great game."

I can't imagine what it's like to think that losing a game means you have to be unhappy.
You're talking about two very different levels here, though.  Obviously if you're playing a board game with some friends, or a random multiplayer match, or a beer-league softball game, it's much more about the camaraderie and socializing than the outcome.  You're playing for fun, and the whole purpose is enjoying yourselves.  But in the world of professional sports, with multi-million dollar contracts at stake, and tens of millions of people watching your every move, and the potential to obtain essentially immortal fame?  You bet your ass that you're upset about losing.  Those "great game" spiels in interviews are by and large just so many words.  To be a truly-legendary athlete, you need to have that killer instinct, to remember every time you failed and use that as motivation to succeed, to never accept anything but victory.  You read stories about people like Michael Jordan hanging onto every negative article written about him, just so he could dwell on it and use it as motivation to get better, and then throw it back in his detractors' faces later.  That's the attitude I mean.

And really, I think all of this is magnified when you're part of the most-followed sporting event in the world, where you're literally representing the hopes of your entire nation, when even in the most impoverished nations on the planet people huddle around TVs and radios to follow your exploits.  You're telling me that losing shouldn't gnaw at you in that sort of situation?  Then you're just not human.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Let's side aside the 'all elite athletes are lying in those postgame interviews because of some articles about Michael Jordan thesis' and clarify something. Are we talking about professional athletes with mega contracts, or the field of all competition implied by:

I certainly never have, unless you're talking about the platitudes one feeds to little kids when they're bummed about losing a game.  Again, if you're not out there playing to win, why are you even out there?

Any ideology that compares Rocky Balboa taking pride in going the distance to lying to little kids is clearly un-American!

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Well, I can tell you Polish team is usually pretty unhappy after losing again... They don't really show that to public, and certainly not to international public, though. Also, you should've seen Norway during Winter Olympics, their skaters lost to friggin' Poland by some millimeters. That Norwegian skater who got the second place literally had a breakdown, though he got better (or managed to hide it well) by the time of the medal ceremony. Noone is saying they didn't fight well, but Mongoose is right about this. Professionals can be bitter about losing, especially if it's a sport considered important in their country. Showing this isn't considered very sportsmanlike, but many times, it's there, mostly once they're home.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
This discussion needs the clarification I asked for above.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
My clarification would be that even within the amateur sphere, there are different levels at play.  If you're talking about your average Little League team losing a game, then yeah, it should be more about enjoying the activity and doing as well as you can.  But if you happen to, say, make it to the Little League World Series, then I see nothing wrong about being upset at getting knocked out, even if in the long term you view the experience as a positive one.  To extend the analogy to gaming, getting pissed at a solo queue DOTA2 match is just plain stupid, but being angry at yourself for losing in The International semifinals is natural.  The stakes involved in the particular competition weigh heavily on one's reaction to the outcome, and while we rightly tell young kids that they should be having fun in a recreational league, if they're skilled enough to make it to a high-profile tournament, obviously they're going to want to win it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
So is the claim 'there is nothing wrong with feeling bad' or 'there is no point in being there, and you will be hurting your chances of success, if you do not feel bad when you lose'?

You seem to be deploying the claim 'it's natural' to mean 'it's universal'. That's going to be very difficult to substantiate.

You also say 'obviously they're going to want to win it', but your original claim was that nobody could competitive could take pride in going the distance (the Rocky Balboa example). These are not mutually exclusive claims.

I think you need to clarify your claims on these three points.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
And I think that this doesn't need to be a structured debate in order to voice opinions.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Then you can step out. We're having a conversation here. I'm asking questions so I can understand his position better.

 
Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
You seem to think that going out on the field with the intention to win is the only sporting and honourable thing to do, yet to me, it seems more like sheer arrogance. A team should be striving to play their best or improve on it. There's no shame in losing a game you never had a chance of winning, and thinking differently could seriously hurt a team's mental strength.
It's much more frustrating to lose a game where the competitors are close in skill because you know you had a chance and feel that you underperformed.

And I think that this doesn't need to be a structured debate in order to voice opinions.
I'm guessing you've never been to or participated in an actual structured debate. This is just a structured conversation, because one simply doesn't have the time to decode vaguely phrased ideas when you can expect 4-6 messages per hour at best.


could competitive could

Holy crap. There's a grammatical error in a post Battuta wrote.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
I don't think there's anything wrong with the assertion that it's a good idea to always enter a competition with the intent to win (even if I don't necessarily agree myself). I'm more curious about the idea of how you feel afterwards if you end up losing.

A lot of people take real pride in having put up a hell of a fight. This is something you see a lot in the aftermath of major wars.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Note, in a war, it's pretty much the whole point to have the enemy hopelessly outmatched. A fair fight is a crapshoot in that case, and in fact, most battles are decided before they even begin. Competition isn't the point, Sun Tzu had a lot to say about this. And indeed, prevailing even against overwhelming odds, or complete enemy superiority, even if it fails, can be a point of pride, especially for the soldiers themselves (though their generals should be ripping hair off their heads because of that, as their job is not to let that happen). And similarly, steamrolling over the enemy will be mostly a point of pride for one man, namely the strategist who orchestrated the whole thing, while for the soldiers it might be "just another day", and nothing to write home about. And it's tales of soldiers that survive in the folk stories, while strategists' exploits are generally known to other strategists and military historians (unless it's a particularly pivotal battle, that is).

On the other hand, in sports, you're supposed to be pretty much evenly matched. Here, unlike in a war, the "battle" itself is the whole point, and it's always ultimately decided "here and now", when it occurs. For all the planning and calculations, it all comes down to what your players can do. That's why it's generally more common to feel bad about a lost match. Barring extreme circumstances, if you're playing with someone, it's generally someone that you should have even a slightest chance of beating. Otherwise, why play at all? If you're in World Cup, it'd be expected that your team is World-class. Of course, if all teams in your country are shoddy, then it might be hard to get a World-class team out of them, but that is rare. Before a match, you don't know if you'll win or not. You go in intending and wanting to win, even if the opponent happens to have a better record. There are worse teams and better teams, but there are hardly situations in which you can't even hope to win.

 
Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping to win, but there's a difference between hope and intent. I'm not sure if this is a difference of opinion or a cultural and lingual one. When I said: "intention to win" I meant absolute determination to the point of not even considering other options. Maybe there isn't a word in the English language that signifies what I was trying to convey, or maybe it's not in my vocabulary.

And I'm not sure it's good to compare sports to wars. I'm not really offended by it, but I don't think trying to put up a hell of a fight in a war is something admirable. And those who take pride in it are usually the ones who haven't been shot at.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 05:52:32 am by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
I'm not sure I agree on the latter. Shared pride in - and regret for - actions in war is often a bridge for understanding and reconciliation between veterans from opposing sides, and it's probably most common among actual combat veterans. (Not, of course, by any means universal.)

To combat the drift from the central point here, what I'm most interested in is the idea that it's impossible to take pride in anything but victory.

 
Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Yeah, this thread's been derailed 3 times already, and I don't think I'm very comfortable writing about it anyway(I find it hard to express myself on the matter in English, I don't have any real problems reading about it).
I don't think anyone apart from Scotty and Mongoose will oppose you on that point. I think that not only is there pride to be found in defeat, but there's also shame to be found in victory. It all depends on how you performed relative to your physical limits.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 12:10:21 am by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
To combat the drift from the central point here, what I'm most interested in is the idea that it's impossible to take pride in anything but victory.

I believe I have identified the misunderstanding.  I fully believe that it's possible to take pride in things other than victory.  Actions or performance during the contest are absolutely worth it.  I do not believe that one should take pride in the outcome of a defeat (following the theme of the original splitpost, that includes ties :P).  A defeat is a defeat is a defeat (on a sports field), and if there's any pride on the losing team it's in spite of this and not in addition to/because they lost.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
So Rocky's just an idiot? I don't buy that and I don't buy the worldview behind it.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Quip about Rocky being an idiot aside:

Was Rocky proud because he didn't win?  Did the outcome of losing the match make him prouder of his performance?  I highly doubt it.

 
Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
You're not proud that you lost, you're proud that you only lost slightly. This applies to ties too, as a team should be proud of being able to play as well as a much stronger team. There are definitely some losses(and especially ties) that you can and should be proud of.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Quip about Rocky being an idiot aside:

Was Rocky proud because he didn't win?  Did the outcome of losing the match make him prouder of his performance?  I highly doubt it.

I don't think the counterfactual matters. He's proud that he went the distance against a really good challenger - he put up a great fight, giving it his all, and it came down to the wire.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: On Tie Games and Injury Time
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that the very people who couldn't understand the point of a draw in football because it would encourage a team to not go out and try to win are now arguing that the desire to win is a major driving force in professional athletes?


Also, if it helps just think of it this way. A draw isn't an outcome where both teams won, but one where both teams lost. :p A pyrrhic victory is something to be both proud and sad about at the same time after all.
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