Author Topic: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA  (Read 26796 times)

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Offline Scotty

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
And *if* they find it, break into the locked container, they get a long metal pipe that's completely useless because it has a secure lock on the trigger and its bolt is removed, locked in a separate container, and stored separately in the house.


Which they also rob.

Your argument is flawed at a fundamental level. No matter how heavily you secure the weapon you keep at home, it is still a bigger danger than not having a gun at home in the first place. If you feel that your security precautions mitigate the danger to an acceptable level, so be it. But trying to argue that it doesn't exist at all is rather silly. Especially when I was speaking in general and most people do not take the precautions you take.

Every single one of these points can be equally applied to a car and its keys, and yet we're not discussing the merits of automobile ownership despite the fact that automobiles kill far more people each year than firearms do.  Your staunch opposition comes from a position that is equally applicable to any object that can be used to cause harm to others.  Hell, in the urban UK you probably don't even really need a car, making the comparison even more apt.

While you are correct in that owning a firearm is inherently more dangerous than not owning a firearm, a properly stored and secured firearm is only negligibly more dangerous than no firearm at all - much like a properly parked and secured car is only negligibly more dangerous than no car at all.  Malicious intent does not suddenly make that danger worse.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Which they also rob.

Your argument is flawed at a fundamental level. No matter how heavily you secure the weapon you keep at home, it is still a bigger danger than not having a gun at home in the first place. If you feel that your security precautions mitigate the danger to an acceptable level, so be it. But trying to argue that it doesn't exist at all is rather silly. Especially when I was speaking in general and most people do not take the precautions you take.

Having a large wrench is a bigger danger than not having a large wrench in my home because someone could cave someone's skull in with it (seriously, the thing is massive).  I don't see anyone arguing wrenches should be stored at remote sites.  Moreover (foreshadowing!), robbery here is relatively uncommon compared to the UK.

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It wouldn't be much more expensive to buy your own gun and store it at the range though. In fact, considering the cost of the precautions you have to take at home, it might even end up cheaper.

There are five ranges within 45 minutes of my home.  Of those, one - the $30/day range - offers storage, and only of handguns, not rifles.  Does me no good.  There's also the matter that rifles and shotguns are used for animal/predator control, so even if I were to have some sort of secure storage at some else's site, I need to store it periodically at home before trips into the backcountry when its coming along (as purely a backup to the infinitely more useful bear spray).

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The fact that the UK model exists belies the argument that a gun must be kept at home for people to be able to go target shooting. While that may be true in certain cases, it's not certainly not true for a large number of them. As pointed out above, you yourself can't make that argument because it would be fairly easy to make it so that it wasn't a requirement. You have a range within easy reach of your home, your guns could be stored there. If you choose not to do that, that's your choice.

Most ranges here don't offer storage for long guns because storing them properly in one's home is cheaper, more secure, and more practical.  Recall that Canada is a country of 30 million people, and the landmass of the entire UK can fit into any single one of 7 of the Provinces, nevermind the Territories.  While the model you propose may be practical and work well in the heavily-urbanized UK, it doesn't here.  Canada, like many countries, has a significant firearms culture.  While we have reasonable laws that put stringent limits on firearms ownership, storage, and use, an attempt to impose the UK model here would rightly be met with outrage as it doesn't dramatically improve safety while it severely curtails usage and ownership.

In general, while the rate at which firearms are involved in all types of deaths in Canada exceeds that of England and Wales, the homicide rates are fairly similar between the two countries (depending on the year you look at), with Canada's typically being slightly higher.  Looking at overall violent crime rate, however, violent crime rates in England and Wales significantly outpace those of Canada (OECD report summarized at http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf).  Would further restrictions on firearms significantly reduce deaths here?  Unlikely.  The majority of deaths here attributable to firearms are suicides (roughly 75%, varying slightly by year), which is one area where new legislation introduced in the 1990s made little in the way of impact.  Moreover, the UK suicide rate overall is actually slightly higher than the Canadian rate, despite the much tighter firearms controls.  Accidental deaths attributable to firearms in Canada are quite low, and homicides make up the bulk of the remaining deaths.  However, StatsCan data show that the majority of those homicides are committed by unregistered and illegally-owned/stored weapons in the first place.  In general, Canada and the UK are quite comparable in terms of crimes and deaths.  While Canada has a slightly higher overall homicide rate, the UK has a higher violent crime rate.  While firearms are involved in more crimes in Canada, the levels of crime committed in the two countries are quite similar.  Most of Canada's gun violence is in suicides; the UK has a barely-higher but almost identical suicide rate to Canada.

In other words, the fact that Canada has far more firearms owners, more firearms in general, and laws permitting more varied uses of them makes almost no real difference when compared to the UK.  Why would we apply a model of firearms controls that makes no sense given our geography, legal landscape, and culture when the statistics that control would affect are virtually identical to a country that uses that model anyway?

I don't make this argument, incidentally, when it comes to the United States.  That country needs to take a look around and get its collective **** together.

Regardless, I'm not what you'd call a gun-nut, but I do believe in evidence-based policy and legislation, and the evidence generally is that near-bans, like those in the UK, don't have much effect on overall deaths and violence as compared to similar nations with legislation that focus on responsible ownership and use, but this is highly-dependent on the culture and history of the country and a one-size-fits-all-solution does not exist.  It's largely cultural.  In Canada, we can't fathom the idea of police not being armed with guns; many people in the UK are shocked by the idea of police WITH guns.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:16:57 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
i also think i have the right to nuke bears.

That's racist!  :shaking:

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
i also think i have the right to nuke bears.

That's racist!  :shaking:

would you prefer i nuked humans?
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
i also think i have the right to nuke bears.

That's racist!  :shaking:

would you prefer i nuked humans?

No. Nuke all the things! Be an equal-oppertunity nuker!

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
The majority of deaths here attributable to firearms are suicides (roughly 75%, varying slightly by year), which is one area where new legislation introduced in the 1990s made little in the way of impact.  Moreover, the UK suicide rate overall is actually slightly higher than the Canadian rate, despite the much tighter firearms controls.  Accidental deaths attributable to firearms in Canada are quite low, and homicides make up the bulk of the remaining deaths.  However, StatsCan data show that the majority of those homicides are committed by unregistered and illegally-owned/stored weapons in the first place.  In general, Canada and the UK are quite comparable in terms of crimes and deaths.  While Canada has a slightly higher overall homicide rate, the UK has a higher violent crime rate.  While firearms are involved in more crimes in Canada, the levels of crime committed in the two countries are quite similar.  Most of Canada's gun violence is in suicides; the UK has a barely-higher but almost identical suicide rate to Canada.

There is some evidence that gun bans could lower the suicide rate, similar to how banning coal gas ovens in the UK may have lowered it.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
There is some evidence that gun bans could lower the suicide rate, similar to how banning coal gas ovens in the UK may have lowered it.

Most of that evidence comes from countries without strict licensing and storage laws in the first place - namely, the United States.  Canada did see a drop in firearms-related suicides following the stricter licensing and storage laws brought in in 1991, but the overall suicide rate in the country has remained relatively stable since 1920.  Furthermore, while suicide in Canada is the leading cause of death of young people in the age 15-39 bracket, that age class has the lowest percentage of firearms-use in suicide of any age class.  The highest percentage of firearms use in suicide comes in the age 60+ bracket.  Not coincidentally, Canada does not allow for euthanasia.  The greatest number of suicides occurs in the age 40-59 bracket, whose firearm usage is only slightly greater than young people and well below that of the 60+ bracket.  Hanging and poisoning are both double the firearms percentage in that group; by contrast, the 60+ group has firearms use exceed poisoning and is slightly below hanging.  (Relevant charts: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm)

In Canada, most of those firearm suicides are in aboriginal communities with severe social problems where social programs and mental heath services funding would actually get more value per dollar spent than criminal enforcement with more firearms laws in the first place.  This country has a massive and chronic issue with under/mis-funding of reserve-based social and health care services.  The aboriginal population has a suicide rate over 3 times higher than that of the general population.  This is further complicated by the fact that aboriginals in Canada have the right to sustenance hunting and attempts to eliminate firearms in that population - nevermind the general population - will be met with Constitutional challenges.  Aboriginals also have the highest percentage of accidental deaths by firearm, and research suggests the majority of these are actually suicide attempts.  (Relevant report: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/researchpublications/mr131-e.htm)
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Canada did see a drop in firearms-related suicides following the stricter licensing and storage laws brought in in 1991, but the overall suicide rate in the country has remained relatively stable since 1920.

I've looked into it, but I'm not really sure why wikipedia says that when the statistics on that very site show the rate almost doubling from 1950 to 1980's and then stabilizing at about 150% of 1950's rates.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Canada did see a drop in firearms-related suicides following the stricter licensing and storage laws brought in in 1991, but the overall suicide rate in the country has remained relatively stable since 1920.

I've looked into it, but I'm not really sure why wikipedia says that when the statistics on that very site show the rate almost doubling from 1950 to 1980's and then stabilizing at about 150% of 1950's rates.

Hunh? My info isn't coming from Wikipedia

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/chart/11696-02-chart1-eng.htm

The age-adjusted suicide rate has hovered between 9-13 per 100,000 for the last 60+ years, with brief spikes up closer to 15 (peak was in the 1980s).  The suicide rate right now is higher than it was in 1950, despite the significantly tighter firearms laws.  In other words, Canada's firearm regulations introduced in the 1960s and again in the 1990s have had no discernible impact on the overall suicide rate (there are no long-term drops in the suicide rate following either the regulatory framework introduced in the 1960s or the 1990s that are attributable solely to firearms legislation).  Keep in mind both those events significantly tightened existing firearms controls.

I played around in CANSIM with the last decade worth of data and pulled together a spreadsheet that may interest people concerning some of the statistics I've been pointing at.  Unfortunately, CANSIM doesn't appear to have pre-2000 data readily loaded, but the last decade is quite interesting on its own.  See attached 7zip.  I've made a summary JPG as well

Suicides by firearm from 2000 to 2011 dropped, just as suicides by other means also dropped (and slightly more).  The overall suicide rate dropped by 1.3 per 100,000 (age standardized) over this period, with firearms-related death reductions accounting for 0.6 and all other for 0.7.  All of this with no tightening of firearms-related controls in this period.

Does firearms availability impact suicide rates?  Data from some countries points to yes.  Does tightening firearms controls in countries with existing control legislation have a meaningful impact on the suicide rate on its own?  Data for the Canadian experience points to no; there are other much more important causal factors at work.

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« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 12:45:03 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Nuke

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
The majority of deaths here attributable to firearms are suicides (roughly 75%, varying slightly by year), which is one area where new legislation introduced in the 1990s made little in the way of impact.  Moreover, the UK suicide rate overall is actually slightly higher than the Canadian rate, despite the much tighter firearms controls.  Accidental deaths attributable to firearms in Canada are quite low, and homicides make up the bulk of the remaining deaths.  However, StatsCan data show that the majority of those homicides are committed by unregistered and illegally-owned/stored weapons in the first place.  In general, Canada and the UK are quite comparable in terms of crimes and deaths.  While Canada has a slightly higher overall homicide rate, the UK has a higher violent crime rate.  While firearms are involved in more crimes in Canada, the levels of crime committed in the two countries are quite similar.  Most of Canada's gun violence is in suicides; the UK has a barely-higher but almost identical suicide rate to Canada.

There is some evidence that gun bans could lower the suicide rate, similar to how banning coal gas ovens in the UK may have lowered it.

guns have that quick and effective attribute and are capable of getting the job done. i for one think we need suicide booths. that would reduce rates of suicide by gun, and probibly reduce school shootings as well.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
There are five ranges within 45 minutes of my home.  Of those, one - the $30/day range - offers storage, and only of handguns, not rifles.  Does me no good.  There's also the matter that rifles and shotguns are used for animal/predator control, so even if I were to have some sort of secure storage at some else's site, I need to store it periodically at home before trips into the backcountry when its coming along (as purely a backup to the infinitely more useful bear spray).

You're making several incorrect assumptions about what I'm arguing.

1) I'm only arguing about handguns. Looking back, I haven't made this quite as clear as I thought I had. But it basically makes the points about rifles moot.
2) I'm arguing about urban settings (Especially those where discharging a handgun at a place that isn't a target range is illegal anyway).
3) I'm arguing that under those circumstances there is no NEED to keep a handgun in your house because it would be just as practical to keep the gun at the range you're going to have to take it to anyway.

Target shooting is often given as the reason to need to keep a handgun in your house. But I don't believe it is actually the reason people keep a handgun quite as often as people claim it is. In many cases it's a justification, not a reason.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
There are five ranges within 45 minutes of my home.  Of those, one - the $30/day range - offers storage, and only of handguns, not rifles.  Does me no good.  There's also the matter that rifles and shotguns are used for animal/predator control, so even if I were to have some sort of secure storage at some else's site, I need to store it periodically at home before trips into the backcountry when its coming along (as purely a backup to the infinitely more useful bear spray).

You're making several incorrect assumptions about what I'm arguing.

1) I'm only arguing about handguns. Looking back, I haven't made this quite as clear as I thought I had. But it basically makes the points about rifles moot.
2) I'm arguing about urban settings (Especially those where discharging a handgun at a place that isn't a target range is illegal anyway).
3) I'm arguing that under those circumstances there is no NEED to keep a handgun in your house because it would be just as practical to keep the gun at the range you're going to have to take it to anyway.

Target shooting is often given as the reason to need to keep a handgun in your house. But I don't believe it is actually the reason people keep a handgun quite as often as people claim it is. In many cases it's a justification, not a reason.

Your argument definitely holds more water if its solely about handguns, but its still flawed.

You can possess handguns in Canada for a couple reasons: employment, target shooting, and collection being the main ones.  Of those, your argument really only applies to target shooting.  Even then, ranges are still expensive to shoot at, storage at urban ranges is relatively expensive (even with a LE discount, the range near here where you can store is over $300 a year for a membership and storage fees are on top of that), and there are already stringent storage requirements on homeowners.  All handguns here are restricted, meaning they must meet the requirements in s.6 here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/page-3.html#h-4  In short, trigger or action-locked, in a locked container/safe or secure room designed for the storage of restricted firearms, with ammunition stored separately or locked up similarly.

It's only practical to keep a handgun stored at a range if you always go to that range.  Some people do that.  Others don't.  Since legally-owned-and-possessed handguns are virtually never used in crimes or result in accidental deaths here, I don't see a compelling reason to eliminate the existing storage laws and force off-site storage.


There are a lot of firearms owners - myself included - who are completely on board with laws regulating ownership, possession, transportation, use, and storage.  Strong laws.  But what I notice is that the gun control argument is generally framed by two groups of people:  rabid gun owners who know a lot about guns and very little about the law and the public safety consequences of gun ownership, and people whose only experience with guns is popular media and the tragedies in the news.  Moderate voices get lost.

There is no compelling reason why public safety demands firearms owners surrender their firearms, or jump through expensive and frankly unreasonable hoops in order to possess and use their belongings, especially in countries where this is part of the culture and history.  Similarly, there is also no compelling reason why firearms owners can't be strictly licensed, and subject to strict laws ensure safety of that ownership, possession, use, and storage.  Is it reasonable to ban fully and semi-automatic military-style weapons with large capacity magazines in the interest of public safety? Absolutely.  Is it reasonable to ban .22 revolvers?  Not particularly.  But is it reasonable to impose more stringent controls on an easily-concealed handgun like a .22 revolver than a conventional shotgun or hunting rifle? Definitely.  There exists a happy medium here.  People who argue for quasi or actual bans on gun ownership generally, or entire classes of firearm based on look rather than potential threat are just as much of a problem as the guy who figures he should be able to own a fully-automatic AK47 with a drum mag and carry it wherever he damn well pleases.  Both lack education on the issues at play, the statistics involved, and the legal landscapes.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Again you misunderstand.

I'm going to give up cause there is obviously a failure of communication going on here and I'm already heartily sick of explaining a fairly minor point over and over again.
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
What I don't understand is why you need live ammo for target shooting. I mean, wouldn't blanks be just as good? This way you could sell all the guns you want for target shooting/collection and only those who actually need to kill stuff(like hunters or policemen) would have access to live ammo. I know blanks can still be dangerous, but surely they're much less dangerous than live ammo.
And the whole self-defence argument seems a bit silly, you don't need a submachinegun for self defence, a pistol should be enough.

The Ferrari argument just doesn't work because you can actually take it to a track, a lot of these cars are even designed and tuned with a racetrack in mind.  Rifles on the other hand are designed for warfare, not shooting ranges. That's why they use an air-rifle in the Olympics, not an M4A1.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 09:03:41 am by FrikgFeek »
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Offline Lorric

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
The Ferrari argument just doesn't work because you can actually take it to a track, and a lot of these cars are designed and tuned for a track.  Rifles on the other hand are designed for warfare, not shooting ranges. That's why they use an air-rifle in the Olympics, not an M4A1.
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Offline jr2

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Blanks are useless for target practice.

Nothing hits the target - you can't really do anything. It would be like playing ball with an imaginary ball. 

 
Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Then use rubber bullets, I know they exist. You just don't need lethal ammo for shooting ranges.
EDIT: it seems I was completely wrong on this one.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 10:38:07 am by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
What I don't understand is why you need live ammo for target shooting. I mean, wouldn't blanks be just as good? This way you could sell all the guns you want for target shooting/collection and only those who actually need to kill stuff(like hunters or policemen) would have access to live ammo. I know blanks can still be dangerous, but surely they're much less dangerous than live ammo.
And the whole self-defence argument seems a bit silly, you don't need a submachinegun for self defence, a pistol should be enough.

1.  Blanks are just casing and powder, there is no projectile.
2.  Who has a submachine gun for home defence?  Fully-automatic weapons are illegal even in the US.
3.  Really, a semi-auto shotgun is the most practical weapon for 'home defense.'  My thoughts on home defence?  If you need a gun to defend your home, find a less ****ty place to live.
4.  Handguns are involved in the majority of accidental firearms-related child deaths in the US.

Quote
The Ferrari argument just doesn't work because you can actually take it to a track, a lot of these cars are even designed and tuned with a racetrack in mind.  Rifles on the other hand are designed for warfare, not shooting ranges. That's why they use an air-rifle in the Olympics, not an M4A1.

As far as I know - and I did Google it again before writing this - some Olympic shooting events use air pistols, but most use live ammunition; namely .22 and shotgun chambered in various sizes.  Biathlon uses .22LR, the most common target shooting caliber in the world.

As for rubber bullets, they are specialty rounds that are more expensive, tougher to find, and really don't affect safety at shooting events anyway because a certified range is quite possibly one of the safest places you can be at any given time.  Rubber bullets are also considered "less-lethal;" at close range, the proximity that you'd be at with an accidental discharge, they are still basically as lethal as lead ammunition.  I'm not quite sure why you'd argue that rubber bullets are appropriate for target shooting given that death or injury at ranges is virtually non-existent, unless you're thinking that the storage at a home would be less problematic, but it's still ammunition and requires safeguards.
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Well, you can clearly see that I don't know jack about rifles apart from the fact that they're bloody dangerous. My dad has a leftover Zastava M72 from the war and that's about the only gun I've ever seen(I've seen a few policemen carrying pistols, but they were hidden in their holsters). Anyway, the core of my point is that owning live ammo should be illegal for anyone who doesn't need to kill stuff. I don't see why they couldn't just sell/store the ammo at shooting ranges. If you only want a gun for it's artistic value or for shooting ranges, I think you don't need to store live ammo in your home.
Even if live ammo really is necessary to have fun on a shooting range, it should be possible to just sell it on-site. Guns don't kill people, bullets do.
Thanks for making me a bit less ignorant on the topic though.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
My thoughts on home defence?  If you need a gun to defend your home, find a less ****ty place to live.
That seems harsh to me. A lot of people will have no choice in the matter. Or the trouble might come to them, and they don't want to leave. Or they don't want to leave their job, friends and family. Would you rather let thugs take all that away from you and money out of your pocket, or live your life how you want to? Even if you're not poor, it can take years to sell your house or find the right place and then have to wait for them to find the place for them so you can move in.