Author Topic: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA  (Read 26865 times)

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Offline Scotty

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Well, you can clearly see that I don't know jack about rifles apart from the fact that they're bloody dangerous. My dad has a leftover Zastava M72 from the war and that's about the only gun I've ever seen(I've seen a few policemen carrying pistols, but they were hidden in their holsters). Anyway, the core of my point is that owning live ammo should be illegal for anyone who doesn't need to kill stuff. I don't see why they couldn't just sell/store the ammo at shooting ranges. If you only want a gun for it's artistic value or for shooting ranges, I think you don't need to store live ammo in your home.
Even if live ammo really is necessary to have fun on a shooting range, it should be possible to just sell it on-site. Guns don't kill people, bullets do.
Thanks for making me a bit less ignorant on the topic though.

A rifle is only as dangerous as the person using it.  The same thing goes for ammunition.  Ironically, this sort of viewpoint is exactly why the Second Amendment exists, because making the purchase and ownership of live ammunition would quickly remove (either through expenditure or criminalization) any means to defend oneself at home (regardless of validity of defense claim).  It'd also be a real bear of a thing to get around for people that like to go hunting in their free time.

Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

This bears a second look.  Neither bullets nor guns kill people individually.  Hell, bullets and guns together don't kill people.  For bullets and guns to be capable of killing people, someone has to **** up.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
unless you bayonet someone or beat em to death with the butt of your rifle. im surprised these school shooters dont equip bayonets. actually one of the biggest killers in warfare is artillery. grab one of those avalanche control guns and a few rounds of ammo, and a ballistics table and a crazy person can indiscriminately rain down death into populous areas.
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Pretty sure that the previously mentioned "less-lethal" ammo would suffice for self defence. Yeah, they're more expensive but you shouldn't find yourself in a situation where you have to actually shoot someone that often. And if everyone didn't have guns, you wouldn't have to defend yourself from guns. What terrible threat do you have to defend yourself from other than human beings with guns? Rabid animals don't just stroll into towns that often, and if you happen to be a certified hunter you should be allowed to carry live ammo for bolt-action hunting rifles.
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Offline jr2

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
FrikgFeek, where do you live (country?)

As far as defending yourself goes, a) criminals will have gone regardless, even if they have to fabricate them (not that hard of you're a machinist), and there are always weapons that work in addition: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004888.html )

The thing about self - defense with a firearm, if you someone is simply making mischief, unless they are insane, they will either surrender or run if you confront them while ready to inflict deadly harm. Unless they have a firearm out, in which case, by announcing their intention to use the threat of deadly force, they are inviting whatever you end up doing to defend yourself.

Now, some may think I'm extreme and bloodthirsty. Not at all, lethal force should be a last resort, but when it comes down to it, that card needs to be on the table unless you have enough law enforcement around to be in your house before any harm comes to you or your family. (not going to happen, even in a police state)

I do think that people who are obsessed with killing in defense of their property (not people, property) are just a bit whack. Maybe legally justified, but whack. Announce your presence and your intention to defend your property AFTER calling the police, and they should clear out. To shoot to kill and then claim you didn't know if they were going to hurt you...  Come on. If you have the drop on them, don't end someone's life because they f*cked up and decided to steal. Be ready to respond if they are crazy enough to insist with deadly force, but don't be a heartless nincompoop.

Heck, if they needed to feed themselves or their family, I would probably wait for the police, check their story out, and buy them food and not charge them with anything.

It's the people that somehow think that they are strong or well - armed enough to take what they please when they please from who they please however they please that are the problem, I would think. Honestly, unless you live in a bad part of a big city, you probably won't run into that. Probably....

And before you ask, I don't have an "assault rifle". Although I would like one some day.  I need a good,  locking case first. :p

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
you know inspired by nukes artillery comment, I wonder how hard it would be for someone on their own to make a reasonably effective makeshift mortar. assuming someone clever enough to make black powder, pipe bombs are dumb easy, and it doesn't seem like it should be too hard to make a bunch of pipe bombs, and then just make a bunch of charges, for launching the bombs, and you can figure out range by firing off a few sand filled bombs. doesn't seem out of the range of beleivability.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
...things you can buy at a hardware store...
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Offline Mars

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
I feel like this thread is going in a really bad-dark direction.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Dude, of course you can. They make armor piercing IEDs  from different materials over in Iraq and Afghanistan

EDIT:
the reason it's not that common probably is that it's more practical to just buy it on the black market. Probably less chance of accidentally blowing your face off too, that's always a plus.  :yes:
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 10:38:57 pm by jr2 »

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
its easy to convert a cell phone to a detonator. you just need a big ass mosfet (n channel, if you do this with a p channel you will die) and an electric blasting cap. connect the gate of the mosfet to the hot lead on the vibration motor, the drain to the positive power supply, and the blasting cap from source to ground.

well hard light is officially under nsa's radar. hi nsa dude, sorry you wasted your life. take over the world already.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
My thoughts on home defence?  If you need a gun to defend your home, find a less ****ty place to live.
That seems harsh to me. A lot of people will have no choice in the matter. Or the trouble might come to them, and they don't want to leave. Or they don't want to leave their job, friends and family. Would you rather let thugs take all that away from you and money out of your pocket, or live your life how you want to? Even if you're not poor, it can take years to sell your house or find the right place and then have to wait for them to find the place for them so you can move in.

The point is more that most people who think they *need* a gun to defend their home actually don't.  The vast majority of break-ins occur when the owner isn't even on the premises, and for those few that do ("home invasions"), the chances of you getting to a properly and securely stored gun before an intruder is able to attack you are pretty much nil.  Yes, there are anecdotes of people who fended off intruders because they had access to a firearm but these are the exception, not the rule.

If you home security plan is a gun, you don't have a home security plan.  Ergo, move somewhere that you don't feel you need a gun.  If you can't move, then clearly the motivation to move (by not relying on a gun) is less than all the other reasons that you want to stay where you are (financial and otherwise).

Did I mention this fun fact earlier?  At a distance of less than 21 feet, an attacker will touch a trained and prepared person who is trying to draw, aim, and fire a loaded firearm.  They teach this in law enforcement use of force training - if you're facing a person with a knife, and they're less than 21 feet away and you don't have a gun out and pointed at them, they will cut you before you can shoot them to stop them.  I've trained in the drills; it's true.  How many houses have you see where an intruder will be further away than 21 feet from you?
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Pretty sure that the previously mentioned "less-lethal" ammo would suffice for self defence. Yeah, they're more expensive but you shouldn't find yourself in a situation where you have to actually shoot someone that often. And if everyone didn't have guns, you wouldn't have to defend yourself from guns. What terrible threat do you have to defend yourself from other than human beings with guns? Rabid animals don't just stroll into towns that often, and if you happen to be a certified hunter you should be allowed to carry live ammo for bolt-action hunting rifles.

1.  If you are going to shoot at someone to defend yourself, even with less-lethal ammunition, it had better be because they intended to cause you death or grievous bodily harm... because otherwise you're going to prison for murder / attempted murder.  That said, if I'm going to shoot someone to defend myself from death or grievous bodily harm, it's going to be with ammunition that WILL stop them, not that might stop them.  And less-lethal ammunition is still capable of being lethal, and probably will be at short range.  Once again, there is literally no purpose to less-lethal ammunition in civilian hands.  It's no safer for the majority of ways accidents occur (extreme close range), and it doesn't prevent crime (because criminals don't use less-lethal ammunition, they procure live rounds).

2.  "And if everyone didn't have guns, you wouldn't have to defend yourself from guns." If we could live in a world where we could ensure no one would ever die from a gunshot again because everyone got rid of their firearms, I'd be the first to show up at the smelter saying "melt these down and good riddance."  Unfortunately, criminals manage to acquire guns even in places where ownership is fully banned.  The cat's out of the bag, too - the first 3D-printer-built firearm was made not that long ago.  Firearms aren't difficult to make, nor acquire, nor hide.  They aren't going away.  They haven't gone away in places they are banned because part of the population doesn't care if they are banned.  Now, I don't own a gun to defend myself from other people, but I will say that the only practical way to deal with firearms is to regulate them, license the owners, enforce safety laws, and prosecute anyone who breaks them.

3.  I don't know where you're from; where I'm from, I have had 300 lb black bears and cougars (mountain lions, to some of you) in my backyard and at the back window of the house.  Now, while I have thankfully never needed to shoot one and I do prefer bear spray, having a gun on hand in case of emergency is ideal.  I've also seen adult bull moose walk down the front street.... and no, I don't live in the bush or on an acreage.  That's IN town.  We've had bears get into people's houses.  They're generally harmless, but they're everywhere.

4.  Certified hunter meaning licensed hunter?  I think you need to read up on the laws concerning firearms in places other than where you live.  In Canada, to even own a firearm, you need to take a safety course that covers the law, safe handling, safe use, and safe storage.  When you pass that course with over 80%, you send that certification along with an application which includes all of your personal information, criminal records information, spouse or ex-spouse/partner information, and three references to the national firearms center, who run background and criminal record checks on you and interview your references.  Then, they may issue you a license to possess and acquire non-restricted firearms (most rifles and shotguns).  If you want to own restricted firearms - which have severe restrictions on handling, storage, and use beyond those of non-restricted - you have to pass a separate course, and the application is the same.  The course is a few hundred dollars, the application is $60-80.  Once you get a license you can actually buy a gun or acquire one from friends/family, and you have to renew it every five years.  To even have it in your possession you need your license with you.  You have to follow all the storage and handling laws, and if you don't there are a number of criminal offences that specifically deal with storage and handling of firearms.  Then, if you want to hunt, you need a hunting license, tags for the game animals, and there is yet another stack of laws that deal with how, when, and with what you can hunt.  And most hunters use bolt-action or semi-automatic rifles anyway.  However, there are a lot of hunters who bow hunt, for which they require no firearms license or safety course.  Fact of the matter is, there are a lot more restrictions that are involved in merely owning a firearm than hunting that certify you are safe to have it.

Well, you can clearly see that I don't know jack about rifles apart from the fact that they're bloody dangerous. My dad has a leftover Zastava M72 from the war and that's about the only gun I've ever seen(I've seen a few policemen carrying pistols, but they were hidden in their holsters).

A rather large barrier here is that you appear to have no exposure to firearms, the laws governing them, or the safety/crime/etc statistics concerning them.  That's not necessarily a bad thing the majority of the time, but it is a bad thing when you're trying to argue in a discussion on a topic you appear to know nothing about aside from what you've gleaned from popular entertainment and news media... who get it wrong far more often than they get it right.

The problem is not that firearms are dangerous - a firearm is simply a tube that allows expanding gases to force a projectile out the other end at high velocity.  It is not fundamentally more dangerous than a bow (and frankly, I can think of several calibers of guns I'd rather be shot with than a bow any day).  The problem is not responsible people who follow the firearms laws.  The problem is people who don't - the wrong people are dangerous when armed with firearms.  And like so many people who don't fully understand the issue, the things you're advocating punish already law-abiding people and do nothing to deter crime or reduce accidental deaths.  What does that you ask?  First off, strong laws concerning reasonable ownership, use, transport, and storage that promote safety but don't turn the majority of gun owners into criminals without enhancing safety further; second - swift, certain, and severe punishment of law breaking.

Like I said before, I am a passionate advocate for owner/use licensing and mandatory training and sensible, evidence-based firearms controls.  I think Canada has a very sensible model that needs to be improved upon, too (though many Canadian gun owners would flog me for saying it as some think it over-bearing).  I am ALSO a vocal opponent of proposals based on opinion without evidence or practical application.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 01:11:46 am by MP-Ryan »
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Not sure how it's relevant, but I'm from Croatia. You have to pass a bunch of psychological inspections (they even interview everyone from your neighbours to your mother in law) to obtain a hunting license, which automatically makes you eligible for purchasing bolt-action hunting rifles. I think you can obtain a pistol as a civilian, but I've never heard of someone doing that. Some people have rifles from the war stashed away in their basement, but they couldn't kill someone with those rusty pieces of junk even if they wanted to. Most working guns are in the hands of the Police and security forces or the Mafia.
And don't tell me that banning guns is inherently impossible. Japan's done it and their firearm related homicide rate is one of the lowest(if not THE lowest). I understand that removing a market without removing the demand will just create a black market(like banning alcohol did in the prohibition era), but surely something can be done.
Obviously Ryan is much more educated on the topic than I am, and I completely agree with what you've said about home defence. If there's an armed person in your home you call the police and leg it. Dealing with armed criminals isn't something civilians should do. Same goes for animals, surely there's a service you can call to deal with wild bears and vipers and whatnot.
And you're probably right, my ideas sound more like asinine DRM now that I've re-read them, but I still don't see a reason a civilian should keep a loaded gun in his home.

And if I thought all my ideas were correct and the ultimate gun solution I would propose them to the U.S. government, not a public forum for everyone to criticise.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 01:38:32 am by FrikgFeek »
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
thats discrimination

psycho pride! we demand equal rights!
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Offline jr2

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
1) who said anything about loaded?

2)the reason I asked where you were from is, if it's not too difficult, a firearms safety and familiarization course would probably get rid of some misconceptions. The weapons aren't scary, irresponsible people are.

3)that sounds legit ;if there's an armed intruder in my house, I'll call the police, somehow convince my 20-month old son and 8 month old daughter to be quiet while my wife and I grab them and "leg it" ummm, or maybe since that won't work well, ask nicely for him to just take our stuff? :p Granted, if we are  close to an egress route, that does make some sense. If.

 
Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Yes, trying to engage the armed criminal with lethal weaponry and an intent to kill seems much more practical. And yes, you should let him take your stuff, he has a ****ing gun. What rational human being would risk his life to save his property? And it's not like they can get very far in the 5-10 minutes it'll take the police to get there.

Croatia used to have a firearms safety course with some really old German rifles, but those aren't considered safe enough any more.

And if the gun you're keeping isn't loaded(or the ammo isn't right next to it so that it takes a few seconds to load it) then it's not very practical for home defence.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline jr2

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
I would only intend to kill if the idiot didn't drop his weapon and / or run. I'm assuming he either thinks I'm not there (not likely, the car is a dead giveaway) or has harmful intentions for our persons because otherwise he would have waited until the house was vacant., like a "smart" criminal. 

 
Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
I would only intend to kill if the idiot didn't drop his weapon and / or run. I'm assuming he either thinks I'm not there (not likely, the car is a dead giveaway) or has harmful intentions for our persons because otherwise he would have waited until the house was vacant., like a "smart" criminal.

Doesn't matter if you intend to kill him, he might intend to kill you. And in a situation where you both have firearms and are within 5-6 metres(15-20ish feet I guess) it's basically up to luck who gets shot and who survives. Are you really going to risk your life like that? Might as well play Russian roulette to buy it back then. I'm pretty sure your chances against a criminal with an intent to kill are worse than 83,33% . Even if you're at the shooting range every day and you're an incredible sharpshooter it doesn't mean crap if he sneaks up on you in the dark.
MP-Ryan explained it much better than I ever could, a gun is not a home security plan.
And It's not like you're never home without the car, doesn't your wife ever drive it?
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline jr2

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Only if hers is in the shop. And, if the criminal has the drop on you, that's a different story than him prowling around the house and you becoming aware before he accosts you. Then you really would have to play Russian roulette - and hope he's not a serial killer. :p

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Major problem with gun control laws is that their violation can even be a felony. Thats not cool for things which are only indirectly harmful. Its why I am really hesitant to support increased gun control even if it could save some lives.
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Re: CNN opinion article: The real gun problem is mental health, not the NRA
Only if hers is in the shop. And, if the criminal has the drop on you, that's a different story than him prowling around the house and you becoming aware before he accosts you. Then you really would have to play Russian roulette - and hope he's not a serial killer. :p
But again, let's say it's some kid who's trying to steal some minor stuff to fund his *insert generic drug* addiction. He stole his father's gun and then you jump out in front and ask if he could drop his weapon. He gets scared as **** and instinctively shoots you.
The very fact that you have a weapon and are confronting him with it is taking a needlessly huge risk. And you never know who's just a bumbling moron and who's a serial killer. Legging it always seems like the best solution. And if moving your kids really is such a big problem, then why are you even living in an area where you need a firearm to defend yourself?
I might be wrong here, but the whole " I need a gun to defend myself" thing just seems like an overreaction.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded