[Scotty]

What the last few replies have been getting at, is that from an Egyptian standpoint, Jehovah might as well be the name of a demon.

It's a name.  They are semantics at their basest.  It all depends on your perspective and which side you happen to be on whether a god is a demon or a demon a god.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It's a matter of perspective in the sense that Bosch views himself as Moses or Odysseus but the player and the game view him in a very different light.
He's a mass murderer and a racist, consorting with demons, and fancies himself a saviour for mankind.

[Luis Dias]

When has God, as in Yahweh, Hosanna, Allah, whatever ever factored into their depiction?

It did, at the very least as the way Bosch imagined himself and as a general commentary on the myth of Moses...

It's a matter of perspective in the sense that Bosch views himself as Moses or Odysseus but the player and the game view him in a very different light.
He's a mass murderer and a racist, consorting with demons, and fancies himself a saviour for mankind.

Spoken like a true Egyptian on the time of Moses . I don't think the "game" sees him in only "that" fashion. I think it sees him in both fashions, and both are true, such great commentary on what we regard as myths... which is all kinds of great stuff to be found in a simple game.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It did, at the very least as the way Bosch imagined himself and as a general commentary on the myth of Moses...

Eh, Bosch brings up all sorts of analogies not just moses.
As does the game. His ship is after all named Iceni.

It's a matter of perspective in the sense that Bosch views himself as Moses or Odysseus but the player and the game view him in a very different light.
He's a mass murderer and a racist, consorting with demons, and fancies himself a saviour for mankind.

Spoken like a true Egyptian on the time of Moses . I don't think the "game" sees him in only "that" fashion. I think it sees him in both fashions, and both are true, such great commentary on what we regard as myths... which is all kinds of great stuff to be found in a simple game.

The game makes him pitiable, that's about it.

I was wrong on one count however, as reading the monologues, the final monologue suggests that his crew is going to be leaving. So having his crew killed and only him taken was not something he expected.

[Luis Dias]

It did, at the very least as the way Bosch imagined himself and as a general commentary on the myth of Moses...

Eh, Bosch brings up all sorts of analogies not just moses.
As does the game. His ship is after all named Iceni.

I covered all that up... Boadicea, Iceni, Hieronymus Bosch... heck even the Aquitaine winks at us with its name and its historical reference. We know good works of art are like this, they basically chew a lot of stuff and come out with incredible texture in it and somehow it all fits in a very simple, strong idea.

The game makes him pitiable, that's about it.

Yes, he's painted as a tragic figure. With an open question mark.

[The Dagger]

I was wrong on one count however, as reading the monologues, the final monologue suggests that his crew is going to be leaving. So having his crew killed and only him taken was not something he expected.

We do not know the extent of Bosch's communications with the shivans. Maybe they did deal and agreed on a RV point and some conditions, preliminary talkings for an alliance and so forth, maybe he was just transmitting some shivan codes and waiting for them to come to him. Maybe his ETAK device wasn't working properly. Who knows what level of communications he was having?

I can get behind Luis interpretation, since this communication could have been similar to my interactions with my dog. For example, he used to bring me his leash, to show me that he wanted to get out for a walk. I could understand his message, it was me who build the link between the two experiences in his mind. Most of the times, he got what he wanted. Sometimes however, I would put him on the leash and then bathed him. It was a traumatic experience for him. He never understood why I did that, because personal hygiene is beyond his comprehension. We may be not more that dog intellects to the shivans. Who knows what blowing up stars is all about?

[NGTM-1R]

Really? Well, I don't even mean "in-game" sense out there when you are in your cockpit and so on, but never even plotwise. There may be other games like this (usually zombie games), but every space shooter or sci fi game where an enemy faction is as sophisticated as the shivans are that I have played, I never got the sense there was no politics involved. All Tie Fighters, X Wing Alliances, Wing Commanders, and so on always had speaking antagonists. I wonder what kinds of "space sims" you played.

TIE Fighter didn't have speaking Rebels at least until the mission disks, and if you're going to be arguing that then I counter that we had speaking Shivans during Silent Threat. Just not to us. The Kilrathi taunting you isn't speaking to you in any meaningful sense, nowhere near the significance of, to use your example, Sovereign's conversation with Shepard on Virmire. They can mouth our insults; that doesn't even imply they're an intelligent species in the end, just that someone taught them to like a bunch of parrots. We don't see a developed Kilrathi character until the second game.

You don't seem to remember these games as clearly as you think. Or, for that matter, FreeSpace as clearly as you think; Silent Threat rather destroys the notion of the Shivans as uncommunicative. They not only communicated but participated in a massive joint project with the GTI which replicated some of their most powerful technologies.

This is interesting, but it is biased towards gameplay and so on, which is also predictable since playing a "really alien species" was more interesting as an experience. Plotwise what you just said makes no sense whatsoever. We know vasudan hierarchical structure. We know their story. We know their home planet. We talk to them every day. We embark on their ships and are welcomed as crew members. We commercialize with them. To say we know "less" of Vasudans because gameplay-wise we fight the shivans quite a lot more is a non-sequitur.

What do we know actually know about Vasudan culture?

They like Egyptian names. They favored a more rapid-firing version of the basic GTVA weapon because it suited their doctrine better. They used to have a Parliament. Now they have an Emperor.

You're not actually evaluating what you're told; you are accept it uncritically, and not realizing in so doing that your brain is filling in the blanks in the actual narrative and knowledge. Our characters may have the knowledge you describe. But we the players do not. We know nothing about the Vasudans that would actually prepare us to encounter one.

So the fact they don't speak at all, fail completely to state their intentions is nowhere near mysterious to you?

They are, bluntly, the enemy. It is not in their interests to communicate if they believe they can win without doing so, as by doing so they could give us information we might be able to use against them. Augustus' Legions faced their enemies in silence to intimidate them; this too is an old human trick.

The Humans and Vasudans talked to each other because they had no intention of engaging in a war when they met. Did the Ancients try to communicate with the Shivans? They never mention it, and given their general warmongering and stated penchant for genocide it seems unlikely they would have bothered.

So in the end, the lack of communication need not be mysterious. It can be, but it does not have to be.

When I see Command do what they did regarding Bosch, I say "human political intrigue at its best". I immediately recognize it. It is mysterious in the sense that we don't know who made the call (could it even have been the vasudans?).

But in reality the ETAK experience is simply a way to get you invested in the concept of a Shivan mystery. They know that without making the Shivans behave in a mysterious way, which in this case would mean presenting them as less than paragons of lethal efficiency, they need to do something that will make them mysterious. They are unprepared to sacrifice menace for mystery, so they use the familiar as a bridge to the obscure.

The only outright incomprehensible act of the Shivans during the game is, not coincidentally, tied to ETAK.

I guess all the questions that could pop regarding the shivans' nature, their true power, their true scale, their homeworld, their language, their culture, their purposes, their politics, everything really, is just of no interest to you, thus of no mystery.

I could make a similar argument about the GTVA. How is it governed beyond vague generalities? Where are my orders actually originating? How many people live in it? What about the Vasudans? Can you describe the typical Vasudan day to me? How would a Vasudan define family? Do they even have a concept of family? Can you describe their internal politics, or indeed the internal politics of the Terrans?

You are surrounded by mysteries you refuse to acknowledge. The Shivans are the least mysterious of them, simply because we see so much.

[NGTM-1R]

We do not know the extent of Bosch's communications with the shivans. Maybe they did deal and agreed on a RV point and some conditions, preliminary talkings for an alliance and so forth, maybe he was just transmitting some shivan codes and waiting for them to come to him. Maybe his ETAK device wasn't working properly. Who knows what level of communications he was having?

Now, this is untrue. Though he describes the communication as crude, he is quite firm on several points regarding what he was told and what he said. It is obvious from what Bosch says that he managed to hold something resembling a conversation. The fact the Shivans were able to identify him and a number of other members of his crew by sight and take them away argues it was fairly extensive.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It did, at the very least as the way Bosch imagined himself and as a general commentary on the myth of Moses...

Eh, Bosch brings up all sorts of analogies not just moses.
As does the game. His ship is after all named Iceni.

I covered all that up... Boadicea, Iceni, Hieronymus Bosch... heck even the Aquitaine winks at us with its name and its historical reference. We know good works of art are like this, they basically chew a lot of stuff and come out with incredible texture in it and somehow it all fits in a very simple, strong idea.

Which is . . . .

[Luis Dias]

TIE Fighter didn't have speaking Rebels at least until the mission disks, and if you're going to be arguing that then I counter that we had speaking Shivans during Silent Threat. Just not to us. The Kilrathi taunting you isn't speaking to you in any meaningful sense, nowhere near the significance of, to use your example, Sovereign's conversation with Shepard on Virmire. They can mouth our insults; that doesn't even imply they're an intelligent species in the end, just that someone taught them to like a bunch of parrots. We don't see a developed Kilrathi character until the second game.

****, I hate doing this, but you so make me do it! I have to borrow someone else's analysis of something dear Rumsfeld once said that got everyone laughing, to make a point about this. Remember when he said that silly philosophical fearmongering stuff about there being known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns? Well he forgot the fourth one, the unknown knowns, i.e., our prejudices, our baggage that we come with into anything we do, like play a FreeSpace 2 game, or a Tie Figther game, etc.

You are analysing this as if the game design doesn't pressupose this baggage already exists in everyone's minds. But I argue it does. When Volition designs the Humans in FreeSpace they are free to not be thorough in their characterization, because it doesn't matter that much. We already are "team humans" by default, we know what they mean when they say "humans" and therefore all that baggage is already in place when we start the game.

The same can be said about Tie Fighter. No one played that game before watching the trilogy. No one thinks the rebels are muted space freaks that you won't communicate with. Regarding the Kilrathi, well, there were four Wing Commanders, and if by the second one we get them well developed as a talkative species and so on, remember that we are analysing here the plot of the *second* FreeSpace too. I never played the first Wing Commander, so I defer to your experience there.

You don't seem to remember these games as clearly as you think. Or, for that matter, FreeSpace as clearly as you think; Silent Threat rather destroys the notion of the Shivans as uncommunicative. They not only communicated but participated in a massive joint project with the GTI which replicated some of their most powerful technologies.

I don't regard Silent Threat too highly though, but you're right I don't have present in my memory the plot details of ST. I had the memory that it wasn't a free communication that was happening, but rather pure manipulation on the terran part over some lone tiny random shivan forces. The whole plot fits nicely into the "hive mind theory" Peter Watts style, wherein the less forces of Shivans are out there, the less smart and weaker, manipulatable they become.

What do we know actually know about Vasudan culture?

They like Egyptian names. They favored a more rapid-firing version of the basic GTVA weapon because it suited their doctrine better. They used to have a Parliament. Now they have an Emperor.

You're not actually evaluating what you're told; you are accept it uncritically, and not realizing in so doing that your brain is filling in the blanks in the actual narrative and knowledge. Our characters may have the knowledge you describe. But we the players do not. We know nothing about the Vasudans that would actually prepare us to encounter one.

The point of the game isn't to fight Vasudans, except for one or two missions where they went a bit rogue (and you do learn something about their hierarchical (lack?) of structure where some units can just decide to **** a human secret op just like that). And I agree that in that sense, the game is far more interested in alluring you towards the shivans. But the game pressuposes that you already know everything you "need" or are "interested" to know about both humans and vasudans.

They are, bluntly, the enemy. It is not in their interests to communicate if they believe they can win without doing so, as by doing so they could give us information we might be able to use against them. Augustus' Legions faced their enemies in silence to intimidate them; this too is an old human trick.

You pressupose it was meant as intimidation, that it was according to their interests. It's a possibility but there's no evidence of this. Unlike "old humans", the question of whether they even communicate is wide open until Bosch becomes slightly successful.

So in the end, the lack of communication need not be mysterious. It can be, but it does not have to be.

It is but one element that adds to it.

When I see Command do what they did regarding Bosch, I say "human political intrigue at its best". I immediately recognize it. It is mysterious in the sense that we don't know who made the call (could it even have been the vasudans?).

But in reality the ETAK experience is simply a way to get you invested in the concept of a Shivan mystery. They know that without making the Shivans behave in a mysterious way, which in this case would mean presenting them as less than paragons of lethal efficiency, they need to do something that will make them mysterious. They are unprepared to sacrifice menace for mystery, so they use the familiar as a bridge to the obscure.

Those are two different events. One, the intrigue within Command, two, the Shivans ambiguously but also seemingly responding to Bosch's attempts. They are tied, of course, the plot is very laser focused, sharp, but I wasn't talking about the shivan part there. Now, of course the ETAK is the very core of FreeSpace 2's thematic concern: Is it possible to contact and really start "some" kind of relationship (other than pew pew) with these Monsters?

As a player, the game is superficially telling us that this doesn't really concern us, that shivans are bad zombie ships we should kill, that we should try to capture Bosch (even though we have Command against us on that point) and his technology; but then as a viewer, there's a slight dissonance with the fact that we do get involved with Bosch's quest, that almost all the cutscenes are about his struggle, not ours.

Both angles are windows to how "we" (human mortals) relate to the shivans.

The only outright incomprehensible act of the Shivans during the game is, not coincidentally, tied to ETAK.

What are you referring to exactly? The capture of Bosch and the butchering of the rest of the crew? I don't see it more incomprehensible than the supernovae that comes as much as a surprise here.

I could make a similar argument about the GTVA. How is it governed beyond vague generalities? Where are my orders actually originating? How many people live in it? What about the Vasudans? Can you describe the typical Vasudan day to me? How would a Vasudan define family? Do they even have a concept of family? Can you describe their internal politics, or indeed the internal politics of the Terrans?

You are surrounded by mysteries you refuse to acknowledge. The Shivans are the least mysterious of them, simply because we see so much.

Jesus, these are quaint things. "What bowls of cereals does Petrarch eat every day? Huh? Can you POSSIBLY answer this question? Didn't think so!" Well of course we do not, but it's not as if we aren't given a good codex on their culture, politics and so on to the expected level that we can given the scope and scale of the writing material we have. This isn't Mass Effect, where you can convince some Vasudan girl your manliness is bigger than their male counterparts, and get to learn their relationship with intrusive sand while you go storming some Shivan headquarters. And yeah, we don't get to "know humans" because we already have a ****ton of years of baggage with that kind of stuff. Where orders come from? From Command, and we know "Command" is a quick reference to all the chain of command outlined for us during the game, including the Admiral we serve on board.

It doesn't have a booze session, all the wingmen are random personas and there's no human connection at all other than with Snipes and a few others. This is both part of the minimalist character of the game and a great source of criticism in the wider spheres of internet reviews. I do think that while this minimalism does explain a lot concerning how we don't get as much info on terrans or vasudans as you'd prefer, it does not explain the shivans.

[Luis Dias]

It did, at the very least as the way Bosch imagined himself and as a general commentary on the myth of Moses...

Eh, Bosch brings up all sorts of analogies not just moses.
As does the game. His ship is after all named Iceni.

I covered all that up... Boadicea, Iceni, Hieronymus Bosch... heck even the Aquitaine winks at us with its name and its historical reference. We know good works of art are like this, they basically chew a lot of stuff and come out with incredible texture in it and somehow it all fits in a very simple, strong idea.

Which is . . . .

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84821.0

[Akalabeth Angel]

It did, at the very least as the way Bosch imagined himself and as a general commentary on the myth of Moses...

Eh, Bosch brings up all sorts of analogies not just moses.
As does the game. His ship is after all named Iceni.

I covered all that up... Boadicea, Iceni, Hieronymus Bosch... heck even the Aquitaine winks at us with its name and its historical reference. We know good works of art are like this, they basically chew a lot of stuff and come out with incredible texture in it and somehow it all fits in a very simple, strong idea.

Which is . . . .

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84821.0

Right, now boil down what you said there into a single sentence.

[Luis Dias]

Great challenge that one, I think it's downright possible but I am afraid synthesis is not my strenght. I'll think about it.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Point is if you feel it's a "simple strong idea", should be able to do just that.
Same way an essay has a thesis and a concluding statement.

[Luis Dias]

I do feel it but I am terrible at expressing it.

[AdmiralRalwood]

You don't seem to remember these games as clearly as you think. Or, for that matter, FreeSpace as clearly as you think; Silent Threat rather destroys the notion of the Shivans as uncommunicative. They not only communicated but participated in a massive joint project with the GTI which replicated some of their most powerful technologies.

You don't seem to remember Silent Threat as clearly as you think; can you point to any evidence of GTI actually talking with (as opposed to just studying or managing to use the technology of) the Shivans?

[NGTM-1R]

You don't seem to remember Silent Threat as clearly as you think; can you point to any evidence of GTI actually talking with (as opposed to just studying or managing to use the technology of) the Shivans?

Shivans were actually being held at Joutenheim station according to the command and mission briefings, GTI was stated to be using them in their efforts to reverse-engineer Shivan technology. And most tellingly it is very likely that a group of Shivan pilots actually flew in the Hades' defense; the ship launches a flight of Seraphim bombers that perform to their maximum spec, which given the difficulties with the captured SF Dragon only months before is exceedingly unlikely unless they had Shivan pilots. (And all but impossible unless you accept they had Shivan help in figuring out how to refit the ships.)

You are analysing this as if the game design doesn't pressupose this baggage already exists in everyone's minds. But I argue it does. When Volition designs the Humans in FreeSpace they are free to not be thorough in their characterization, because it doesn't matter that much. We already are "team humans" by default, we know what they mean when they say "humans" and therefore all that baggage is already in place when we start the game.

Sure it is. But humans is a really damn broad characterization when you get down to it. Insufferable arrogant pricks sure of their own sainthood along the lines of early ST:TNG? Sinners like Game of Thrones? Does the General Assembly have actual power or the Security Council holds the only meaningful ability? Who has military oversight?  There's a huge amount we're not told which is directly relevant and not filled in by the usual general gap-filling. You're simply not looking at it.

None of which, of course, applies to the Vasudans either.

The same can be said about Tie Fighter. No one played that game before watching the trilogy. No one thinks the rebels are muted space freaks that you won't communicate with.

The problem with this concept is that you don't actually deal with any of the rebels from the movies. You do in fact see the Emperor and Vader, of course. But you see plenty of things that don't match up with the movie portrayals as well, like attacks on civilians, exchanges of hostages, the Empire acting as a peacekeeping force, and the Rebel Alliance taking an anarchistic stand against an attempt to establish the basic implements of law and order; all of these are a part of your first couple of campaigns in TIE Fighter.

It was immediately obvious that what you knew was only partially relevant, if it was relevant at all. So it is here; you're arguing we can apply our general knowledge of humanity to an interstellar society with FTL drive and communications, to which I respond that many good authors have spilled much ink exploring the obvious fact this would result in vast societal differences. And did we mention they've integrated a whole other species?

You pressupose it was meant as intimidation, that it was according to their interests. It's a possibility but there's no evidence of this. Unlike "old humans", the question of whether they even communicate is wide open until Bosch becomes slightly successful.

I don't need to presuppose. It's a mathematical certainty that if they intend to fight us and they are in a position of great strength (which is self-evident in both games), then not communicating with us is beneficial because it involves no risk.

Tactics and strategy isn't human-specific; it is mathematically quantifiable, though not always precise, and any species advanced enough to build spacecraft will understand its precepts. Other reasons offered are not presupposed; they are speculation without any real interest in it. The bottom line is that the Shivans never had a reason to communicate with us when they could obviously brush us aside. The one time that fundamental dynamic changed, in Good Luck, they would have had very little time to react. (And we would have had very little reason to listen.)

Those are two different events. One, the intrigue within Command, two, the Shivans ambiguously but also seemingly responding to Bosch's attempts. They are tied, of course, the plot is very laser focused, sharp, but I wasn't talking about the shivan part there. Now, of course the ETAK is the very core of FreeSpace 2's thematic concern: Is it possible to contact and really start "some" kind of relationship (other than pew pew) with these Monsters?

That's not FreeSpace 2's thematic concern at all. Consider: the climax of the game comes after the ETAK plots wrap up. You can define it variously; Straight, No Chaser, Their Finest Hour, Clash of the Titans II, or Apocalypse, but it's clearly later. Similarly, the majority of the other missions in the game that are extremely memorable, like A Lion At The Door or The Sixth Wonder, are completely unrelated to ETAK.

Just to compound the problem, never forget that the SOC Loops are optional. Much of the build-up for the whole ETAK concept is done in missions a player is not required to see. It is a side-story. Quite literally, much of the time.

What are you referring to exactly? The capture of Bosch and the butchering of the rest of the crew? I don't see it more incomprehensible than the supernovae that comes as much as a surprise here.

There is a laundry list of reasons why the Shivans might want to cause a supernova, ranging from the ingame speculation to wanting to make a statement to the GTVA about not poking them like the nebular campaign did. Bosch's abduction/departure is a predictable consequence of his communication. What isn't rationally explainable from what we know is why the Shivans felt the need to kill much of the Iceni's crew in the process of taking the dozen-odd people they did.

[headdie]

You don't seem to remember these games as clearly as you think. Or, for that matter, FreeSpace as clearly as you think; Silent Threat rather destroys the notion of the Shivans as uncommunicative. They not only communicated but participated in a massive joint project with the GTI which replicated some of their most powerful technologies.

You don't seem to remember Silent Threat as clearly as you think; can you point to any evidence of GTI actually talking with (as opposed to just studying or managing to use the technology of) the Shivans?

yer while the game lore hints at research into shivan communication, its not until FS2 where it is looked into with any seriousness.  FS1 is about the tech disparity and the race to close that gap enough to fight back

edit.

I Remember no shivans in the final battle of ST

[GhylTarvoke]

Point is if you feel it's a "simple strong idea", should be able to do just that.
Same way an essay has a thesis and a concluding statement.

Simple strong ideas are not necessarily expressible in a single sentence, if you interpret "simple" as basic, fundamental, common, or intuitive. (For example: existence, truth, love, numbers, consciousness, brute facts, and especially nothingness.)

That said, the final sentence of Luis' thesis is pretty good:

The vertigo symbolized by the constant biblical references parallels the player's experience of the Shivan unreal godlike nature, and the Mosaic thematic creates the perfect setting to brutalize the player's expectations of a simple "epic" story into a more authentic and honest moment of awe and frustration at the game's ending.

[AdmiralRalwood]

And most tellingly it is very likely that a group of Shivan pilots actually flew in the Hades' defense; the ship launches a flight of Seraphim bombers

Uh, what? When did this happen? I find no reference to Seraphim in either the FSPort or ST:R version of the final mission, or the Wiki page for either.

EDIT: To make super-extra sure that FSPort didn't engage is any historical revisionism, I pulled out the GOG.com installer for FS1+ST and extracted md-12.FSM, and still no nonsensical Seraphims.