Author Topic: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...  (Read 69798 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Just getting caught up here:
In addition : the claim that any nation would suffer severe hits to stability after refusing to respond to an attack, or loss of life by another aggressor is historically untrue. The United States has chosen not to respond militarily to quite a number of incidents in the past 50 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo_%28AGER-2%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Most notably, the last one involved the USSR shooting down a passenger jet carrying a US congressman. Not only did our failure to respond militarily to these events not doom our country's security, in several cases, defusing the situation was the overwhelmingly sane thing to do.

None of the incidents you've cited were direct and continuous attacks by a single, organized group against civilian targets in United States territories.  All of the cited incidents were against military targets except for KAL, and KAL ultimately led to political changes in the USSR which, longer term, ultimately led to its collapse.  KAL was also not an attack against a US civilian target, but rather a primarily Korean one.

Apples to oranges, in other words.  Notably, the one attack by a listed terrorist organization that denies the right of the United States to even exist against civilians in American territory led to the invasion of two countries and one of the largest military operations since the Vietnam War.  I'll note that, which is directly comparable, is excluded from your examples.

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Thirdly. I, do not in any way celebrate Hamas's tactics, but as I think I saw Kara mention, the claim that all aggression has to stop from Gaza and things would be fine, seems... really shaky. Pragmatically, the Palestinians have next to no ability to exert political pressure on Israel in any other manner, and no guarantees of anything good happening for their side if they were to disarm. They'd have to remove their last remaining means of achieving local and international attention, on just the good faith that Israel would then deal with them, when the evidence so far to that indicates a less than optimistic picture of things.

Ah, so the pIRA was justified in civilian bombings in Northern Ireland and England because they had no ability to exter political pressure in any other real manner, and no good guarantees of disarmament?

Sorry, but this is a non-argument.  Power imbalances do not justify the attempted mass murder of civilians if you can't get your way through diplomacy.  This isn't some noble engagment of Hamas attacking Israeli military and government targets; this is hamas launching concerted and heavy rocket fire at civilian population centers intentionally.

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You can say both sides have this issue of taking things on faith, but the difference is that if Israel was attacked in an overt fashion (i.e. the scenario painted that if not for the blockade, Palestinian forces could stream across the border into Israel, or the idea that an Israel that didn't power project would invite a massive attack by nearby Arab nations), not only can Israel expect some level of international assistance, they also arguably nowadays have such a powerful Military and Intelligence agency that they could win an extended fight like that. Iran is probably the only nation in the area that poses any threat to Israel, and Iran becoming involved would damn near guarantee the US would become involved militarily, and Iran is likely aware of this. Contrast that to the idea of Gaza taking things on faith and going completely disarmed. They'd be completely at the mercy of Israel, and the shaky hope that the only defense they'd have left would be the international community might help in time, something that seems less and less likely considering how little the international community has been willing to become involved in Syria or Ukraine.

In a scenario where Gaza posed no violent threat to Israel, international opinion and pressure would be overwhelmingly against Israel's treatment of the Gaza strip.  They are, at this juncture, their own worst enemy.  And again, the idea that only violence allows them to be heard or stand up against Israel is not only factually incorrect (as it worsens the situation; the blockade is only justified by arms intercepts), it's reprehensible from a human rights perspective as well.

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Gaza has none of that, and no reason to trust the idea of "don't make any trouble and you'll be fine". Settlements continue to be made in the West Bank. The blockade is unlikely to be lifted without significant time spent without any shred of violence towards Israel (something, I imagine, that would be hard to Hamas to guarantee even if they agreed to it). I say that they're the ones facing a threat to existence because, given what we've see with Syria and Ukraine, Israel could very well annex the territory entirely, and the international community would issue a "stern condemnation" and nothing more.

Gaza and the West bank are different.  Israel destroyed its settlements and withdrew entirely from Gaza before Hamas ever came to power.  Israel has made concerted steps to disentangle itself from Gaza entirely; they want the territory, its people, and the inevitable headache that entails even less than they metaphorically want another hole in their head.  If Israel had wanted to annex the Gaza strip, they would have unilaterally done so long since.  The existential threat Gaza faces originates in the fact that they continue to target Israeli civilians.  So long as that happens, the blockade will never be lifted and Gaza has no economic chances whatsoever.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:54:00 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
None of your reasons mean a thing to the larger picture; the longer that the West puts pressure on Israel to withdraw on the basis on complaints of their largely uninformed citizenry, the longer Hamas stays in powe in Gaza, and the longer the larger conflict continues with perpetually increasing body count.  I repeat:  Hamas now holds Gaza at the point of a gun.  This will not change by internal forces alone.  People who assert that Israel should not respond to what is, by its definition, terrorism against its residents by a group that holds its own residents at the point of a gun perpetually are part of the problem.  If fewer deaths, both in the short or long term are what you're after, that requires the crippling of Hamas' ability to hit at Israel.

A couple of issues here. First this:
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that requires the crippling of Hamas' ability to hit at Israel.

Let me explain a little more of the rationale behind my "rate or volume of fire" hypothesis... If Hamas were smart, they wouldn't leave most of their arsenal sitting right next to the launch sites, because they know the launch sites are going to come under fire. They would only bring their rockets to the launch site when they're nearly ready to fire them, and they wouldn't bring more than they can fire in a short time. That way when Israel does counterattack, the airstrike at most takes out a handful of personnel, some reusable launch equipment, and a handful of rockets, while the majority of the their arsenal remains safe underground.

So if Hamas was playing smart, the counterattack wouldn't have had much effect. Maybe the attrition of personnel and reusable launch equipment makes the difference?

It would be nice if someone could get some numbers for how many personnel, rockets, etc., they had, how much was destroyed by the airstrike, and how much they managed to launch anyway. It would've potentially been a good way to shut me up many pages ago, but nobody could or would bother to contest my hypothesis.



and then this:
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the longer that the West puts pressure on Israel to withdraw on the basis on complaints of their largely uninformed citizenry, the longer Hamas stays in powe in Gaza, and the longer the larger conflict continues with perpetually increasing body count.

I, for one, have no objection to the current ground push, if Israel actually goes as far as it needs to go to thoroughly purge Hamas. Ground forces are much better at avoiding collateral damage, infantry especially so. My objection is and was to the initial airstrikes, on the as-yet-uncontested presumption that without them, instead of a 194:1 civilian death toll, there would have been a 0:x death toll, where x is less than 195.

Or, alternatively, they could've started with the ground push immediately. Maybe the airstrikes helped "soften up" the area to make the ground push safer? Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I believe my saying it here is the first time anyone in this thread has suggested that hypothesis.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
That's basic common sense military strategy 101 so why bother even mention it?

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
You are referring to the air strikes "softening up" the area? Then no, just because an airstrike can be used to soften up an area does not necessarily mean that was part of the airstrike's intended purpose.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
The purpose of immediate retaliatory airstrikes / missile strikes is to take out launch crews, equipment, and deter rapid-launch attacks from the same physical site.  It takes time and effort to set up the rocket launch equipment; hitting the site immediately after a launch increases the chances of wiping out the launch crew and equipment, and preventing Hamas from trying to launch again from the same site moments later.  From what I know of the rocket tech, it's much faster to launch multiple rockets from the same pre-set location than to constantly set up at new sites.  If they didn't hit those sites, the rate of fire could go up dramatically.
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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Just getting caught up here:
...

None of the incidents you've cited were direct and continuous attacks by a single, organized group against civilian targets in United States territories.  All of the cited incidents were against military targets except for KAL, and KAL ultimately led to political changes in the USSR which, longer term, ultimately led to its collapse.  KAL was also not an attack against a US civilian target, but rather a primarily Korean one.

Apples to oranges, in other words.  Notably, the one attack by a listed terrorist organization that denies the right of the United States to even exist against civilians in American territory led to the invasion of two countries and one of the largest military operations since the Vietnam War.  I'll note that, which is directly comparable, is excluded from your examples.

Acceptable enough, I'll focus on other points.

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...

Ah, so the pIRA was justified in civilian bombings in Northern Ireland and England because they had no ability to exter political pressure in any other real manner, and no good guarantees of disarmament?

Sorry, but this is a non-argument.  Power imbalances do not justify the attempted mass murder of civilians if you can't get your way through diplomacy.  This isn't some noble engagement of Hamas attacking Israeli military and government targets; this is hamas launching concerted and heavy rocket fire at civilian population centers intentionally.

Please explain what other means they have. The only argument offered so far as been "if you are peaceful, everything would be fine", which is still unlikely considering that Israel can't even play nice with the West Bank. Overall, The sad reality that the peace process has been utterly stalled until now, to the point where a number of US administrations since Clinton have implied or outright asserted that Israel is slowing down the peace process.

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You can say both sides have this issue of taking things on faith, but the difference is that if Israel was attacked in an overt fashion (i.e. the scenario painted that if not for the blockade, Palestinian forces could stream across the border into Israel, or the idea that an Israel that didn't power project would invite a massive attack by nearby Arab nations), not only can Israel expect some level of international assistance, they also arguably nowadays have such a powerful Military and Intelligence agency that they could win an extended fight like that. Iran is probably the only nation in the area that poses any threat to Israel, and Iran becoming involved would damn near guarantee the US would become involved militarily, and Iran is likely aware of this. Contrast that to the idea of Gaza taking things on faith and going completely disarmed. They'd be completely at the mercy of Israel, and the shaky hope that the only defense they'd have left would be the international community might help in time, something that seems less and less likely considering how little the international community has been willing to become involved in Syria or Ukraine.

In a scenario where Gaza posed no violent threat to Israel, international opinion and pressure would be overwhelmingly against Israel's treatment of the Gaza strip.  They are, at this juncture, their own worst enemy.  And again, the idea that only violence allows them to be heard or stand up against Israel is not only factually incorrect (as it worsens the situation; the blockade is only justified by arms intercepts), it's reprehensible from a human rights perspective as well.

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Gaza has none of that, and no reason to trust the idea of "don't make any trouble and you'll be fine". Settlements continue to be made in the West Bank. The blockade is unlikely to be lifted without significant time spent without any shred of violence towards Israel (something, I imagine, that would be hard to Hamas to guarantee even if they agreed to it). I say that they're the ones facing a threat to existence because, given what we've see with Syria and Ukraine, Israel could very well annex the territory entirely, and the international community would issue a "stern condemnation" and nothing more.

Gaza and the West bank are different.  Israel destroyed its settlements and withdrew entirely from Gaza before Hamas ever came to power.  Israel has made concerted steps to disentangle itself from Gaza entirely; they want the territory, its people, and the inevitable headache that entails even less than they metaphorically want another hole in their head.  If Israel had wanted to annex the Gaza strip, they would have unilaterally done so long since.  The existential threat Gaza faces originates in the fact that they continue to target Israeli civilians.  So long as that happens, the blockade will never be lifted and Gaza has no economic chances whatsoever.

Just going to go with the rest of this at once:
The West Bank is linked to Gaza in that any competing political forces to Hamas in Gaza look to that as an example of what peaceful negotiations can bring, and while life is better than it is in Gaza, you still have what is a pretty unacceptable situation for the Palestinians. Settlements are still being built (violation of GCIV, which Israel is a signatory to),  the PNA is no closer to peace than it was a decade ago, and there's still repeated accusations of human rights violations by the Israelis in the West Bank.

Israel has not backpedaled on much of anything related to the peace process or international law violations despite repeated criticism from the UN and international community in general. I really can't see international pressure being much of a threat. Even in the present situation, the international pressure is so lukewarm that Israel feels fine continuing.

I get that the situation is complicated, targeting civilians is bad, Hamas is bad, and hell, the PNA even is pretty bad (more than some of the human rights violations in the West Bank are carried out by the local government). The thing what really most "pro-Palestinian" voices in this discussion are saying is that Israel is also pretty bad, and the only thing this current operation is likely to accomplish is killing a lot of people in Gaza.

Its unfair to have to negotiate with terrorists, but considering that Hamas still holds Gaza despite how bad it is to live in Gaza, you either have to negotiate, invite 3rd party forces in, or be willing to accept increasing the suffering much much more, before anything meaningful can happen. Israel is being told to withdraw because citizens are *informed* : the most they can do is setback the efforts against them in Gaza, and the loss of life and political enmity this is creating far outweighs those benefits.

In short : If there was a playbook for "take out hostile terrorist forces without killing a ton of civilians", the last 40 some years of history for many countries would have gone differently.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
If there were some numbers available, for how many Hamas personnel/equipment/munitions have been confirmed destroyed by the initial airstrikes, and comparison to how many they started with, that would be great.

 
Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
If there were some numbers available, for how many Hamas personnel/equipment/munitions have been confirmed destroyed by the initial airstrikes, and comparison to how many they started with, that would be great.

Granted, it'd be useful, but how do you confirm counts of what should be hidden personnel and equipment? It's easy to say how much you've captured/destroyed/killed, hard to say how much is there. Most they could probably do is base some numbers off of historical counts of how many rockets Gaza's launched before/after counterstrikes.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Please explain what other means they have. The only argument offered so far as been "if you are peaceful, everything would be fine", which is still unlikely considering that Israel can't even play nice with the West Bank. Overall, The sad reality that the peace process has been utterly stalled until now, to the point where a number of US administrations since Clinton have implied or outright asserted that Israel is slowing down the peace process.

You mistake my point.  It doesn't matter if they have no other means.  Intentionally targeting civilians with violence and death to make a political point is, by definition, terrorism, and is never acceptable.  That word - terrrorism - gets bandied about a lot since 2001, but I - and at least several others around here - am old enough to remember what the definition of that word actually means and the types of people who engaged in it, and Hamas is a classic example.  Violence toward civilian populations is not an acceptable tactic to further political goals, period.  If you think Hamas is in any way justified in using violence in this way to make their point, we had might as well end the argument here because that position is so fundamentally at odds with the principles of human rights, liberty, and international law that I am not going to debate it further.

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Just going to go with the rest of this at once:
The West Bank is linked to Gaza in that any competing political forces to Hamas in Gaza look to that as an example of what peaceful negotiations can bring, and while life is better than it is in Gaza, you still have what is a pretty unacceptable situation for the Palestinians. Settlements are still being built (violation of GCIV, which Israel is a signatory to),  the PNA is no closer to peace than it was a decade ago, and there's still repeated accusations of human rights violations by the Israelis in the West Bank.

Israel has not backpedaled on much of anything related to the peace process or international law violations despite repeated criticism from the UN and international community in general. I really can't see international pressure being much of a threat. Even in the present situation, the international pressure is so lukewarm that Israel feels fine continuing.

I get that the situation is complicated, targeting civilians is bad, Hamas is bad, and hell, the PNA even is pretty bad (more than some of the human rights violations in the West Bank are carried out by the local government). The thing what really most "pro-Palestinian" voices in this discussion are saying is that Israel is also pretty bad, and the only thing this current operation is likely to accomplish is killing a lot of people in Gaza.

Its unfair to have to negotiate with terrorists, but considering that Hamas still holds Gaza despite how bad it is to live in Gaza, you either have to negotiate, invite 3rd party forces in, or be willing to accept increasing the suffering much much more, before anything meaningful can happen. Israel is being told to withdraw because citizens are *informed* : the most they can do is setback the efforts against them in Gaza, and the loss of life and political enmity this is creating far outweighs those benefits.

In short : If there was a playbook for "take out hostile terrorist forces without killing a ton of civilians", the last 40 some years of history for many countries would have gone differently.

You do not negotiate while a terrorist organization is slinging rockets at civilian centers.  It's a PR victory for Hamas, and it gains them further support, undermining the overall peace process as well.  This is what a fair number of people do not understand here - I don't like seeing dead Gazan civilians any more than you do.  However, giving Hamas any kind of victory, incentives, or concessions to have them cease fire is a recipe for MORE dead civilians on both sides, not fewer.  If Hamas starts launching rockets at Israel's civilian population, and Israel and the international community not only stop shooting back but say "OK, here, you can have this and this and this..." what has Hamas learned?  That terrorism gets you what you want.  What will they do in a few weeks/months/years when they want something more?  More rockets.

Hamas cannot benefit from firing on civilians.  Unfortunately, you, Aardwolf, a number of others here, and altogether too much of the international community are willing to let exactly that happen, and in the greater calculus that is a recipe for more carnage, not less.
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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Please explain what other means they have. The only argument offered so far as been "if you are peaceful, everything would be fine", which is still unlikely considering that Israel can't even play nice with the West Bank. Overall, The sad reality that the peace process has been utterly stalled until now, to the point where a number of US administrations since Clinton have implied or outright asserted that Israel is slowing down the peace process.

You mistake my point.  It doesn't matter if they have no other means.  Intentionally targeting civilians with violence and death to make a political point is, by definition, terrorism, and is never acceptable.  That word - terrrorism - gets bandied about a lot since 2001, but I - and at least several others around here - am old enough to remember what the definition of that word actually means and the types of people who engaged in it, and Hamas is a classic example.  Violence toward civilian populations is not an acceptable tactic to further political goals, period.  If you think Hamas is in any way justified in using violence in this way to make their point, we had might as well end the argument here because that position is so fundamentally at odds with the principles of human rights, liberty, and international law that I am not going to debate it further.

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...

You do not negotiate while a terrorist organization is slinging rockets at civilian centers.  It's a PR victory for Hamas, and it gains them further support, undermining the overall peace process as well.  This is what a fair number of people do not understand here - I don't like seeing dead Gazan civilians any more than you do.  However, giving Hamas any kind of victory, incentives, or concessions to have them cease fire is a recipe for MORE dead civilians on both sides, not fewer.  If Hamas starts launching rockets at Israel's civilian population, and Israel and the international community not only stop shooting back but say "OK, here, you can have this and this and this..." what has Hamas learned?  That terrorism gets you what you want.  What will they do in a few weeks/months/years when they want something more?  More rockets.

Hamas cannot benefit from firing on civilians.  Unfortunately, you, Aardwolf, a number of others here, and altogether too much of the international community are willing to let exactly that happen, and in the greater calculus that is a recipe for more carnage, not less.

Israel does not even have to negotiate with Hamas. Israel does have to demonstrate that they are willing to negotiate with someone. There is a supposedly Israel approved (in a relative sense) separate Palestinian government in the West Bank. They need to do something to show that peaceful negotiations are fruitful, which they've yet to do. Split them in two, tell the PNA they're willing to make meaningful deals and compromises, on the condition that they renounce any ties to Hamas. And then follow through if the other side takes the bait. It'd do wonders to the process. No negotiating with terrorists needed. At the very damn least stop building settlements in the West Bank, not only is it illegal, it's a clear demonstration that the peace process isn't being taken seriously, whether intended as such or not.

Also as to the other part : Desperate people are on their last legs, they take desperate, often tragic and deplorable actions, but they do it because they at least believe they have nothing left. I really don't think it's so controversial to say "if there's no other means, let the blood run." Just about every person is born wanting to live, and be free. They may learn to care about other people and be good and just, but still, they want to act out that first drive. While I will still fight back, I can't really fault someone for trying to make a future for themselves and their family. Remember the joke, one of the many battle victories for the US during the revolutionary war boils down to "cross the river and kill the enemy in their sleep on Christmas"

I actually believe you might die for your principles if a situation came up, you're a very moral and respectable person and one of the people I always await the responses for in this forum. I just... don't know if I could do the same. And I don't think I could expect an entire population to.

EDIT: wanted to rework points a bit. sorry
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 09:43:31 pm by DarkBasilisk »

 
Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
THis popped up in my FB feed today. It's interesting, as it does contain a rebuttal to most of the arguments represented here. Esp interesting was the Dahiya doctrine, but I do recommend you to read all of the article.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
THis popped up in my FB feed today. It's interesting, as it does contain a rebuttal to most of the arguments represented here. Esp interesting was the Dahiya doctrine, but I do recommend you to read all of the article.

I haven't read it all yet, but just looking at the other headlines on the site and the author's bio makes me suspect the 'facts' presented in this article are going to have some significant spin.

Just her point 1 about the occupation is shaky:

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As the occupying power of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories more broadly, Israel has an  obligation and a duty to protect the civilians under its occupation. It governs by military and law enforcement authority to maintain order, protect itself and protect the civilian population under its occupation. It cannot simultaneously occupy the territory, thus usurping the self-governing powers that would otherwise belong to Palestinians, and declare war upon them. These contradictory policies (occupying a land and then declaring war on it) make the Palestinian population doubly vulnerable.

Israel doesn't occupy the Gaza territory or usurp its government.  Israel and Egypt blockade Gaza's borders and control its airspace.  Gaza itself is self-governed by Hamas.
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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
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Israel and Egypt blockade Gaza's borders and control its airspace.

Her line of reasoning is that having that giant fence there, controlling anything that goes in and out of it and shooting people who come close to it also counts as an occupation (and the west bank is defenitily occupied, and stuff happened there as well).

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I haven't read it all yet, but just looking at the other headlines on the site and the author's bio makes me suspect the 'facts' presented in this article are going to have some significant spin.

Indeed, but for the sake of the discussion, please treat the arguments as if they are my own. Although I get your whole social contract arguments, there are still quite a few aspects of the whole Israel-Palestina conflict which I can not put my finger on (esp. when it concerns the west bank), some of which are represented there.

 
Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
I agree, this article sums up a lot of the reasons I still just cannot take pro-Israeli arguments seriously.
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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
I agree, this article sums up a lot of the reasons I still just cannot take pro-Israeli arguments seriously.

I don't go that far.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Ali A. Rizvi on the subject, so really good you gotta read it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
1.  It hasn't happened in over 100 years of Western democracy.  It is similarly unlikely to happen in the forseeable future.

Which Western nation has been in the same situation as Palestine then?

It hasn't happened cause the conditions haven't occurred to allow it to happen. I pointed to Serbia as an example of it happening in the closest I could think of to a Western nation in the same situation.

But let's take a step away from the nitpicking and let me get to the crux of my argument. I believe it is morally reprehensible to point at the civilians of Gaza as somehow "deserving it for electing Hamas" But let's leave the morality alone for a bit.

You have yourself pointed out repeatedly that Hamas hold Gaza by force. The last election was in 2006. It has now been 8 years since the election of Hamas. Pretty much any democracy would already have given the people a chance to vote Hamas out. Many would have already given them two. At what point exactly do you stop considering Hamas to have been elected by the people? If not already, when?
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Hamas in fairness had to wait 10 years between the previous election and their election. I'm not expecting them to hold an election in 2 years, but I just thought I'd add that.

When a clear message is sent out that Palestinians don't want Hamas is when to consider Hamas is no longer wanted by the people imo. If Palestine goes the way of other "Arab Spring" nations, or even if you just get mass protests. Any way where it is made patently obvious that Hamas is no longer wanted by the Palestinian people.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
Ali A. Rizvi on the subject, so really good you gotta read it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

That is a much better piece from a factual perspective, and has the added bonus of mirroring my sentiments almost exactly.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Goings-on in my neighborhood, you might have heard of them...
You have yourself pointed out repeatedly that Hamas hold Gaza by force. The last election was in 2006. It has now been 8 years since the election of Hamas. Pretty much any democracy would already have given the people a chance to vote Hamas out. Many would have already given them two. At what point exactly do you stop considering Hamas to have been elected by the people? If not already, when?

I think I've been pretty clear in indicating that Hamas is the problem, that they do not have majority support in Gaza, and that they hold the territory purely by force of arms. My point of contention with you was the comparison to Western voters - because unlike Gaza, no Western country has ever voted for a government that wants to wipe another country or group off the map, regardless of their circumstances.  However, a majority in Gaza knew what Hamas was all about before they gained power and voted them in anyway; those Gazans who did vote for them and especially those who continue to support them today (37% or so in the last scientific poll I saw) bear partial moral responsibility for the death toll in Gaza itself.

To use an analogy:  You're an impoverished person with a very rich, powerful neighbour and you have a dispute over property where he claims he owns 6 feet of your side of the fence (while you claim that all the property was originally yours and he and his ilk forced you out).  meanwhile, he makes it so you can't get a job, can't improve your property, and can get anything more than the most basic substinence goods.  You can choose one of only two sleazy lawyers to represent you:  the first will overcharge and swindle you.  The second runs a gang of organized thugs that hate the rich and tells you they are going to make your neighbour move by beating him up and harassing him.  You go with option 2 because you haven't gotten results with option 1.  The thugs go over, cause havoc, and the neighbour gets upset, grabs his bodyguards, and chases them.  They run back over your fence and stand behind you, while your neighbour and his bodyguards thump you while they try to get to the thugs standing behind you.  You were a victim to begin with, but are you really blameless in the inevitable consequences when you knew what was going to happen up front?  I can certainly empathize with your situation, but I think you share the blame.
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