Author Topic: Gender objectification in games  (Read 122305 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Gender objectification in games
It's about the difference between acknowledging in research and acknowledging publicly in mass media to actually raise support for male victims world wide.

First, that's a political goal that several groups (HRW among them) already perform.

Second, let's break something down from that article you picked out:

Quote
I do not pretend to have read every word of every article posted these sources -- far from it. Rather, I was confident that I could zero in on a sufficiently wide range of material to generate some propositions about the coverage of events within war-torn Kosovo. The task was made easier by print and electronic media's "pegging" of content through headlines. Many of the claims made here pertain to media "focus," which in such a news culture I see as reducible to the headline and "lead," that is, the opening paragraphs of the standardized news story. (These opening paragraphs are ever more important, as news is chopped into smaller bits for the benefit of advertisers and, allegedly, readers with low attention spans.)

Although the article does not operationalize its arguments via a formal content analysis, it is my belief that the vocabulary and frameworks presented here will be useful in developing more statistically-based and methodologically-rigorous studies of this type. In a late section of the paper, I also explore some of the more accurate and responsible media coverage of male victimization in the Kosovo conflict.

Translation:  this a qualitative, subjective exercise that makes the case for there being a potential problem worthy of actual rigorous analysis to be done in the future [by someone else].

The authors conclusions may or may not be valid; however, on the basis of his methodology, which did not use a representative sampling of media coverage, he can't actually draw meaningful conclusions.  It's called selective sampling, and while it's valid to make a case for further research (as he has partially done), it's not a valid method of conducting a rigorous analysis from which meaningful conclusions can be drawn.

It's like if I tried to argue that games represent women as three-dimensional characters, and selected Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Tomb Raider (reboot), Bioshock Infinite, and Metroid as the examples from which I draw conclusions.  I might be able to effectively argue that there is some indication the games industry is creating three-dimensional female characters that bears further study, but I can't argue that it is a meaningful or widespread phenomenon in the industry.

Or, in a shorter and quipped version:  absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Now, is gender-based crime against men covered by media in the same way as it is against women?  Likely not.  Is that fair?  Not particularly.  Is the problem ignored?  No.  Although media often emphasize sexualized violence against women, violence and crime against people is the measure against which international intervention and assistance is balanced concerning violence.  It's also worth noting that, particularly in the developing world, targeted aid measures toward female health and education has been shown to raise the standard of women for everyone, which isn't exactly a surprise as those measures typically help bring better childhood outcomes, improved gender equality and raise economic output, which benefits both genders.
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Re: Gender objectification in games
It's also worth noting that, particularly in the developing world, targeted aid measures toward female health and education has been shown to raise the standard of women for everyone, which isn't exactly a surprise as those measures typically help bring better childhood outcomes, improved gender equality and raise economic output, which benefits both genders.

Pardon me, but that's not true. At least in Germany, where boys are now in the minority when it comes to higher school graduations, in the vast majority regarding school drop outs, and lower school graduations. Male suicide rates are still up to eight times higher than female suicide rates, around 80% of homless people are male and their overall life expectency of males is still five years less than womens average life expectency (and in the US the difference once was only one year in the 1920s).

Women entering the workforce have indeed raised workplace security standards for men, too (though not so much in men-dominated fields of work). But I don't think that is a universal rule. Women joining the armed forces in the US has not led to better care for veterans. For every killed soldier during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, 25 veterans have committed suicide.

In family law, the disproportionate focus on women's wants has worsened men's standing and has disenfranchised countless of divorced fathers.

In laws about sexual offences, the alarmism about a so-called "rape-culture" fueled with false statistics like the 1 in 5 women wreaks havoc on US colleges and universities, demolitioning human relationships and due process.

There are problems of men, which are not solved by a policy solely concentrating and solving women's issues. And you cannot deny the right of men to draw attention to them and demand action.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Gender objectification in games
There is a natural longevity factor for females though based on the fact they have ovaries. It has something to do with them producing fresh cells I think which extend female lifespan.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Gender objectification in games
In family law, the disproportionate focus on women's wants has worsened men's standing and has disenfranchised countless of divorced fathers.

In laws about sexual offences, the alarmism about a so-called "rape-culture" fueled with false statistics like the 1 in 5 women wreaks havoc on US colleges and universities, demolitioning human relationships and due process.

You're going to have to provide citations for at least both of these claims.  Dividing the Child (that's a book, by the way) addresses the first issue directly, and comes to the conclusion that there is not a disproportionate focus on women's wants.  I'll quote the relevant section:

Quote from: Dividing the Child
We have found that although mothers receive sole physical custody in the vast majority of cases, the proportion of joint or father custody outcomes approaches 50 percent for high-conflict families. At first blush, this finding would appear to disprove allegations that the California divorce process reflects and perpetuates gender bias. Why, after all, shouldn’t a 50-50 distribution of outcomes suggest gender neutrality?

Both advocates for women’s rights and advocates for fathers’ rights would probably reject this reading of our findings, and in fact the presence or absence of gender bias in the legal process is not so simple to establish. A fathers’ rights group might well argue that since the overall gender ratio in cases where there are conflicting requests is 2 to 1, the law in action still reflects a maternal presumption. Why, after all, would fathers who conceded custody at lower levels of the conflict pyramid have settled for less than they wanted if they believed they had a 50 percent chance? Advocates for women, on the other hand, would counter that our findings demonstrate that escalation of legal conflict over custody clearly operates to the benefit of fathers. As we demonstrated in Chapter 3 before divorce mothers are the primary caretakers of children far more often than men. Thus, a 50-50 distribution of outcomes should be considered neither fair nor neutral. Rather, a “fair” distribution of outcomes should reflect differences in the care-taking base rate for mothers and fathers.

Alternatively, suppose that, on the merits, custody claims of mothers were, on the average, no stronger than the claims of fathers. (Imagine a judge going into her chambers and flipping a coin in all contested cases.) The outcome ratios might still vary by conflict level if most mothers simply cared more about the custodial outcomes than most fathers, and were therefore more prepared to escalate the conflict to a higher level rather than settle for less than their preferred custodial alternative. Because it takes time and energy to work one’s way up the conflict pyramid, this would imply that only in a small minority of families would the father be prepared to pay the price, even though those who did so might have a 50 percent chance of prevailing.

But one thing does seem reasonably clear: our finding that the gender ratio of custody decrees at the top approaches 50-50 even though the overall ratio among conflicted cases is closer to 2 to 1 in favor of mothers demonstrates neither the presence nor the absence of gender bias.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
I'm having trouble parsing those particular mathematics. If 50% of the cases result into either joint custody or father custody, then it necessarily means that the remainder 50% is woman's custody only. One out of three hypothesis, I am missing something in the way it is written, the writer of that book is incapable of expressing himself, the writer is simply clueless about mathematics.

Given all the research, the writer seems incapable of reaching any conclusion. Reeks of either lazyness or "let's not touch this -ism". For ****s sake, this isn't rocket science even taking to account all the variables and social issues involved.

  

Offline Scotty

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Re: Gender objectification in games
You may want to reread that last paragraph one more time.  The numbers approach 50-50 when the father and mother both push for full custody.  The fact that the actual custody numbers are more skewed at lower levels indicates that the mother is typically more willing to push for full custody than the father is - which is not in any way an indication of gender discrimination on behalf of the system.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
And you may want to read the first paragraph again:

Quote
We have found that although mothers receive sole physical custody in the vast majority of cases, the proportion of joint or father custody outcomes approaches 50 percent for high-conflict families. At first blush, this finding would appear to disprove allegations that the California divorce process reflects and perpetuates gender bias. Why, after all, shouldn’t a 50-50 distribution of outcomes suggest gender neutrality?


This paragraph says the following:

- Majority of cases women get full custody.
- in high conflict cases, fathers get full custody or joint custody 50% of the time
- The second point "would appear to disprove (...) gender bias" because 50-50 "suggests gender neutrailty"

This paragraph shows the writer is incapable of mathematical / logical thought. If 50% of the cases fathers get either joint or full custody, this necessarily means 50% women get full custody. How on earth could anyone read this as a "50-50" "gender neutral" result is beyond me. IDK, have maths changed since I went to school or something? The only WAY these maths could hold on was if "Joing Custody" was near zero percent. But that's obviously not true, so what the **** gives?

Notice that it becomes irrelevante to point to the last paragraph if it is in direct contradiction with the first (and the first is in contradiction with itself).

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
In family law, the disproportionate focus on women's wants has worsened men's standing and has disenfranchised countless of divorced fathers.

In laws about sexual offences, the alarmism about a so-called "rape-culture" fueled with false statistics like the 1 in 5 women wreaks havoc on US colleges and universities, demolitioning human relationships and due process.
You're going to have to provide citations for at least both of these claims. 
Hm I thought it is now more or less common knowledge that the 1 in 5 statistic is based on a survey which defined sexual assault so broadly that even acts that are not criminal were counted as such.
Anyway, here are two articles, describing the procedure on US campuses when dealing with a student accused of sexual assault:
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2013/04/23/the-secret-war-on-men/
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html

Another article how the conceived "rape culture" and actual data fall apart:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388502/rape-epidemic-fiction-kevin-d-williamson

And finally data from the US Department of Justice, which show that from 1995 to 2010 rape declined by 58%:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

E: Just found a handy site with a collection of statistics illustrating various men's issues: http://realsexism.com/
Obviously I can't verify every statistic cited on this page, but I find it more important that they highlight the issues the MRA are concerned about (the moderate MRAs, at least).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 02:00:48 pm by SkycladGuardian »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Gender objectification in games
It's also worth noting that, particularly in the developing world, targeted aid measures toward female health and education has been shown to raise the standard of women for everyone, which isn't exactly a surprise as those measures typically help bring better childhood outcomes, improved gender equality and raise economic output, which benefits both genders.

Pardon me, but that's not true. At least in Germany

particularly in the developing world

It's also worth noting that the rest of the examples you've talked about where men are perceived to have it worse don't actually offer any baseline comparison.  Gender equality is not a zero-sum game.  Have those trends actually worsened for men as compared to a baseline, or have they simply not improved as rapidly as have trends concerning female gender equality?

Hm I thought it is now more or less common knowledge that the 1 in 5 statistic is based on a survey which defined sexual assault so broadly that even acts that are not criminal were counted as such.
Anyway, here are two articles, describing the procedure on US campuses when dealing with a student accused of sexual assault:
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2013/04/23/the-secret-war-on-men/
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424127887324600704578405280211043510.html

Another article how the conceived "rape culture" and actual data fall apart:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388502/rape-epidemic-fiction-kevin-d-williamson

And finally data from the US Department of Justice, which show that from 1995 to 2010 rape declined by 58%:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf

E: Just found a handy site with a collection of statistics illustrating various men's issues: http://realsexism.com/
Obviously I can't verify every statistic cited on this page, but I find it more important that they highlight the issues the MRA are concerned about (the moderate MRAs, at least).

You really need to learn how to pick and choose reputable non-partisan sourcing to emphasize your points.  The US DOJ site is fine.  National Review is a partisan rag with an agenda.  WSJ is usually reasonably reputable.  Blog posts are worthless.  Lastly, sites like "realsexism.com" are actually worse than worthless as they're unverifiable (and fun fact, it's blocked by corporate webfilters as pornographic, which is always a sign of a reputable site *eyeroll*).

All that said, the 1-in-5 statistic is demonstrably flawed: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/05/01/one-in-five-women-in-college-sexually-assaulted-the-source-of-this-statistic/

Quote
There are problems of men, which are not solved by a policy solely concentrating and solving women's issues. And you cannot deny the right of men to draw attention to them and demand action.

I'm sorry, where did I do that precisely?

Nobody - here - is denying that there are male-specific social problems which need addressing, nor that they should be addressed.  Indeed, I've been pretty consistent in pointing out that gender equality needs to be addressed in a holistic manner and neither the MRA-types nor radfem is helpful.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 02:55:36 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Gender objectification in games
I suppose I'm playing a game which fits the topic title right now. Dusted off Silent Scope after however many years it is since I last played it for a bit of fun. And there are parts of the game where if you happen to catch a babe in your scopes you get an extra life. Complete with your character going "Wow!", a woman's voice saying "bonus life" and your scopes turning into a pink love heart and romantic music playing. Forgot about that aspect of the game, I just want to shoot some bad guys and have fun.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 03:27:28 pm by Lorric »

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
Well, that a not too well-known website with the wordparticle "sex" in its name, is flagged by a content filter as pornographic is very surprising...

You may have also noted that the site provides links for some of the statistics to reputable sites (whatever this means) like WSJ, University of Michigan, British Medical Journal,  US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health, US Department of Justice, California State University etc.
Is the site partisan? Yes, of course. But a large part of its statistical claims can be verified by following the links (sometimes you have to run throug on or two further links to arrive at the original data).

Also,  I am not well-versed in the political landscape of the North American blogosphere. And it is quite hard to judge the reputation of any site, unless its name is "KKK" or "WhitePower" or such bull****. Looking up a a site on wikipedia is also not very helpful since wikipedia is partisan itself as far as social issues are concerned (the German Wikipedia is especially horrible with a strong feminist bias), googling it is also not that much useful, since every judgement about the site maybe again partisan. You won't find many feminist or liberal sites talking fairly about MRA sites and vice versa. So who's right? Several years ago I dismissed any article from a conservative or libertarian outlet that'd challenge my worldview. But that's obviously bull****. It's not important where it is published, it is important what is written. And sometimes conservatives have valid arguments, and sometimes liberals/socialists are plain wrong.
The only really reliable way would be to go straight to the source material, finding the surveys, but even that wouldn't be enough, because to be absolutely sure how to interpret the survey you'd need the raw data: the questions, the weighting of the answers, the way the sample was chosen and so on. I am neither a statistician nor a social scientist, I am only a historian and I still have a life and a pregnant wife to care for, so I'm afraid I just do not have the time dig that deep.
 


The holisitc manner your are talking about does not happen. The large part of academic and "professional" feminism sees every bit of attention men's issue get as a threat to their public funding programs, since they believe gender politics are a zero-sum game, and are afraid that the funding of programs for men's issues is going to be cut from their budget.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 04:05:10 pm by SkycladGuardian »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Also,  I am not well-versed in the political landscape of the North American blogosphere. And it is quite hard to judge the reputation of any site, unless its name is "KKK" or "WhitePower" or such bull****. Looking up a a site on wikipedia is also not very helpful since wikipedia is partisan itself as far as social issues are concerned (the German Wikipedia is especially horrible with a strong feminist bias)

The fact that you feel wikipedia has a feminist bias of all things speaks volumes.  If anything, Wikipedia in general is biased toward a classical liberal perspective, with reliance on evidence, data, and corroboration.  It's a fundamentally democratic system, and it's very useful for background information, though not as a academic source.

Quote
It's not important where it is published, it is important what is written. And sometimes conservatives have valid arguments, and sometimes liberals/socialists are plain wrong.

This is only true insofar as the publication reveals its sourcing and methodology for the reader to judge for themself.  Publications that announce they have outright political bias - which the National Review does, incidentally - are not reputable sourcing because they are partisan and driven by a particular world-view spin on the source materials (if they disclose them).

Quote
The only really reliable way would be to go straight to the source material, finding the surveys, but even that wouldn't be enough, because to be absolutely sure how to interpret the survey you'd need the raw data: the questions, the weighting of the answers, the way the sample was chosen and so on.

No, there are plenty of reputable and reliably-sourced publications out there from which you can draw conclusions.  As I used to remind fellow university students years ago:  "General Field" peer-reviewed journal (Science, Nature, Lancet, British Medical Journal, etc etc) > highly field-specific peer-reviewed journal > peer-reviewed journal that no one has heard of > raw-data interpretation (including academic blogs, etc) > government sources (if not peer-reviewed) > Large international news organizations > smaller international news organizations > national news organizations > Wikipedia > accredited international advocacy groups > opinion-based magazines / individual blogs without data sources / personal opinion / etc >>>>>>>>> nondescript unsourced agenda-driven websites.

And really, the last is the only one I truly dismiss out of hand.

Quote
The large part of academic and "professional" feminism sees every bit of attention men's issue get as a threat to their public funding programs, since they believe gender politics are a zero-sum game, and are afraid that the funding of programs for men's issues is going to be cut from their budget.

Citation absolutely required.

Based on the sourcing you're using alone, I question how much actual interaction you've had with actual academic/professional feminism (of the non-radfem persuasion).
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Re: Gender objectification in games
My take on Wikipedia is this:
Technical stuff, natural science, science theory: very solid information for a general overview
History: generally good, as long as no controversial events are concernced that are somehow important for the identity of a nation/ethnicity/religious group
Social topics: to be taken with a grain of salt, especially if it comes to current controversial topics
Biographies: good if the person is long dead and no focal point of an ideological following; careful, if the person is still alive and of public interest (polticians, activists, artists etc.)

I very often prefer the English wikipedia over the German one, mostly reading both versions if they exist. The concept and goal of Wikipedia is a noble one. But since everyone can create and edit articles, it is not suprising that there are some authors that are not interested in unbiased and objective information, but pursue a political agenda. And I think it is safe to say that PR agencies and governments have also discovered the potential of wikipedia.
The German Wiki is a special case as some administrators have their political agenda. Among other things they edited biographies of German MRAs to make them appear as associates of the radical right (in Germany a political/social death sentence), they edited articles about feminists deleting controversial statements these feminists have made, they manipulated articles about domestic violence, deleting evidence that shows that this form of violence is not gendered etc.
As far as I'm concerned, some articles on Wikipedia are PR battlegrounds. 

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Perhaps you may find unattributed, unsourced, anecdotal opinion pieces fun to read, but they're generally considered irrelevant by anyone actually wanting to discuss an issue.

Discussion IS sharing of opinions.

What the hell do you think you're doing when posting?
Or when you post a video of someone talking about the issue?
Or do you consider opinions and thought of everyone but you (or people you approve of) irrelevant?

Really Ryan, get off your high horse for a minute.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 03:48:25 am by TrashMan »
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Offline TrashMan

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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Gender objectification in games
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/columbia-mattress-emma-sulkowicz_n_5811030.html

The fact that this blatant witch-hunting is supported by all mainstream feminist circles speaks volumes about how modern academic feminism (in some countries?) has gone off the deep end. The accused student was found not responsible, despite the university kangaroo courts being required to use an extremely low standard of evidence (>50% likehood, instead of beyond reasonable doubt). Apparently going to the police is too much work, but carrying a mattress everywhere is not... What could be the end goal of this demonstration? Should we lower the standard of evidence even further? Should an accusation be enough?

There is nothing wrong with social movements for equality, however the unfortunate truth is that such movements almost never seem to stop at that, but instead swing to the other side (payback time?) - even if this was not the movement's original intention, it can always be hijacked/infiltrated by different people. This is why the anti-feminism/MRA movement, despite its misogynistic streak, fulfills an important societal function - to keep feminism in check (this is true for all reactionary movements in general).
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Electronic Arts Director speaks up about #gamergate:

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2hfx8s/ea_director_comments_on_gamergate/%20%E2%80%A6

Quote
We have all had to deal with trolls, a-holes, hacker kids, and gamers/fans/haters of all stripes for years. The one redeeming quality of all them (to me) was that they were always gamers – and that was an enthusiasm and love that we all shared. That passion made people do crazy things. As easy as it could have been, I never lost respect for the audience. The people we make games for – even some of the bad ones. That’s our business, and I HOPE its why we all still do this. Love for the art AND for the fans. Two sides of the same coin.
This group of gamers for #GamerGate are angry. PISSED. I don’t think this incident with Ms. Quinn and the media are the direct cause of this exclusively, but rather a spark that blew up some smoldering issues that have been building for years. This level of anger and commitment by these gamers is intense, and its growing. Something is wrong here, this is abnormal.
My opinion: Its not about Social Justice warriors, that has always been a strong influence in gaming. Sometimes its annoying, sure, but it can also be a positive force as well, a much-needed conscience, and a reminder to us all to consider what we create says and means to people of all ages and backgrounds.
Its not really about ethics. Games Media and Games Development have always been intertwined like Siamese twins. We depend on each other greatly, and this relationship (when properly balanced) benefits games and gamers as a whole.
I think the real problem here is alienation. Not of values. That’s misguided. Its not liberal/conservative values, politics, or world-view. Its fear of being meaningless. Its about our loss of connection between ordinary gamers and the games industry. We are losing our connection with people. I think our industry has been drifting further and further away from our fans, as our business get larger, and our global reach gets broader. This lack of a relationship, of mutual feedback, of a personal connection between ourselves and the audience (I believe) is really the true culprit of most deep seated anger here. There is no connection with us, no trust, not even understanding. Yet gamers depend more and more on us for their primary entertainment (important!) and we absolutely depend on them as customers. Yet, our relationship – is increasingly one-sided. They being the unit sale, the % converted on the acquisition funnel, or the revenue target – not the person, the player, the gamer who is (or was) exactly like all of us. We NEED them, and they KNOW we need them. They NEED us too – but have we forgotten that? Do we sometimes feel, we don’t really need them?
This alienation and dependency brings about epic rage – think banks, cellular providers, airlines, cable companies and the hate those relationships generate with customers who NEED that service but get treated like beasts… that’s our future (some would say our present). And in this environment, a back-handed slap to a mass group of gamers who are mass-labeled “misogynists” “rapists” “gamers are dead” “Games ashamed” are just fighting words yelled by a distant, contemptuous, un-connected gaming entity that is part of the establishment elite – and this same recipe (the exact same spark) of every single race/political/protest riot the world over from the beginning of time. And like every protest, there are those who support the activists and those who support law & order, and the establishment. But the root cause of the event is usually NOT what they are yelling and fighting about, but something much deeper, and harder to explain.
Usually being oppressed, insulted, or just generally being abused and invisible. And in this outburst of anger, some of the media turned and fired into the gamer protesters, which then became a riot.
Both sides now dehumanize the other, making it easier to escalate. I wish I knew how to diffuse it. Your friend, Chris


My one second reaction to it: Amazing how the corporation formerly widely known as "EA" has shown to have more empathy than the whole game journalist sites. Let that detail sink in for a moment. Electronic ****ing Arts more empathic with their audience than game sites.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Gender objectification in games
The moderation staff has not received any reports about this thread.  Considering that it's remained fairly civil so far, no action is necessary

I disagree with that somewhat. Given that it's no longer about games, I'm moving this to Gen Discuss.


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Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
My one second reaction to it: Amazing how the corporation formerly widely known as "EA" has shown to have more empathy than the whole game journalist sites. Let that detail sink in for a moment. Electronic ****ing Arts more empathic with their audience than game sites.

Meh.
Two things spring to mind here:
1) What game sites are people actually reading? I never get these vibes from the likes of, say, Rock Paper Shotgun
2) Off course EA will pick the "Gamers" side here - They need the goodwill! They don't need gaming websites all that much - those that are not "objective" and repost press releases all the times often give them bad reviews.

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
And since the thread is now about #Gamergate and everything surrounding it anyway, here's Zoe Quinn on The Fine Young Capatlists and what they have been up to lately. Some interesting links in there.