Author Topic: Gender objectification in games  (Read 122328 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Gender objectification in games
...

Oh, I thought the next person to talk about GamerGate got banned for 3 days, but if the subject is not off limits again that's absolute horse ****. as a chan, on 8chan only stickys do not auto-purge (get deleted automatically), the only way they could have been there for that amount of time on an active chan site with as much traffic as that site gets is if it was in a sticky, and guess what, it wasn't there. Doxxings occur there but the mods are usually pretty quick to clean it out.

it's right here you don't have to listen to a third party
https://8chan.co/gg/
go on, click the link, post there, you do not need to set up an account, just type something into the box at the top of the page and it's visible for all to see and comment on. make up some realistic looking fake address for one of the literally whos and see how it turns out.

even better if you want to start your own board about literally anything you want go here: https://8chan.co/create.php
8chan is sort of like a hybrid of redit and a traditional chan. It is not about GamerGate, it is about freedom of speech, gg just moved there when moot decided he didn't want them anymore. literally any human on the planet, you, right now, can just set up a board there and become a 'mod'. The admin of the site bans boards that do not follow American federal law as the site's only rule is that you don't break the law with what you post. So way to conflate two issues there in an attempt at guilt by association.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 09:56:10 pm by Bobboau »
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
If it's off limits then my mistake. Was just giving a status update.

And you're welcome to look in /hebe/, cause I sure as hell won't.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 09:53:57 pm by Mr. Vega »
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Gender objectification in games
neither will I
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Gender objectification in games
I said I'd ban people if they posted on this thread while the other topic was active. Since it's died down, I don't care if people want to discuss it.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline The E

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Re: Gender objectification in games

it's right here you don't have to listen to a third party
https://8chan.co/gg/
go on, click the link, post there, you do not need to set up an account, just type something into the box at the top of the page and it's visible for all to see and comment on. make up some realistic looking fake address for one of the literally whos and see how it turns out.

Interesting how most of the posts there are not about what gamergate is ostensibly about, but all about how to fight against those who are against gamergate. Or about how Anita Sarkeesian et al are faking threats against them. Hell, they're still going on about that whole Zoe Quinn debacle that started this thing, despite there not being any proof whatsoever for any review-for-sex deals ever actually happening (I mean, sure, that could have happened, but the distinct lack of any reviews, positive or otherwise, by the mentioned journalists kinda tells me that there was no ethics violation there).

Gamergate, in my considered opinion, is a movement of idiots. When your biggest success is to make one sponsor pull out of one website, and most of your PR comes in the form of harassment of women on the internet, your movement is kinda ****ed. Hell, gamergate hasn't even managed to come up with a consistent explanation of what their victory condition even looks like.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Not to mention:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29626809

Thing is, the whole situation has got so muddy now that it doesn't even seem to be about sexism in games anymore, there's no real purpose to attacking the actual players in that situation, it's a question of dealing with the game producers, who are also far more receptive to this point of view.

This has boiled down to a spat between two mindsets that are never going to agree because the trolls and nutcases are far too busy making the situation worse and then sitting back and laughing at the chaos they are causing. And the more they influence the situation towards anarchy, the happier they are.

I suppose the way I see it is that the problem with sexism in games is something that can be dealt with without ever having to acknowledge these idiots, they can whine and complain all they like, but it's a simple matter to cut them out of the equation entirely and actually do something productive.

It all boils down to that time-honoured internet guideline, 'Don't feed the trolls'.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Mostly, it's the level of mudslinging that astoundes me. And people eat it up. Just look at that Joshua post wherein he links to something alledgedly really nasty without even reading the comments that mock him up.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Gender objectification in games
I don't think that slinging mud at a movement founded on mud-slinging is entirely surprising.

EDIT: Here's a good piece about it by RPS' John Walker, who despite RPS' reputation as a really good PC gaming review and news site that doesn't succumb to industry pressure got singled out by gamergate's supporters as one of the corrupting influences that needs to be silenced.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 06:15:12 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
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I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Listening or reading the very media that is under fire and criticism from gamergate is not necessarily the best way to get accurate unbiased information. That's part of the problem, actually. If all the media had been fair in its representation from the get go, this would have been defused right at the start of it. Instead, they thought they could get away with using their megaphones to insult and defame a big chunk of their own audience. And that's where it exploded, not this Quinn stuff. The irony is that most of this gamergate community is actually liberal, and they lost this audience. Absolutely.

What is curious in all of this is how "anti-ggs" are no longer failing to recognize all the harrassment and abuse that ggs themselves are subject to, but that is the product of a few bad apples, trolls and psychopaths. Not the **** that comes "from the other side". No, abuse that goes towards anti-ggs is the product of this gamergate campaign and the whole thing should be prosecuted for it. The double standard is so evident  and yet so readily denied it's ghastly. It's like people are shouting that 2 and 2 is 5 and not understanding the looks they are getting.

The most glaring example of this has been the harrassments and threats to Sarkeesian and others. News sites like the verge and so on will publish on how this is about gamergate and not only "about", but "due to", that we should blame this on gg, that these morons are all mysoginists and so on. Evidence for this? Zilch, Zero, Nada. The media interviews 3 gamergate women and the questions pour in like "Will you agree that women should have a place in game design and stem and so on?", and the glaring bigotry is all too apparent. Let's ask people if they agree that blacks can have jobs like we do, just to make sure we are on the same page yeah? And this mudslinging isn't being done on 4chan or 8chan, it's being done on alledgedly respecftul media with journalistic standards. That's what is appalling to me. In a way, all this mudslinging is what is constantly fueling gamergate.

If a lot more media tried to listen, to have a conversation, all of this would die down. The radicals who maintain their positions would be isolated and ignored by the large chunks, the hashtag would be over. Instead, we get articles like yesterday's the Verge one, idiotic hashtags like #StopGamergate2014 whose only effect was skyrocketing the usage of #gamergate itself.

Because why not escalate the war? I mean, if it provides clickbait.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Listening or reading the very media that is under fire and criticism from gamergate is not necessarily the best way to get accurate unbiased information. That's part of the problem, actually. If all the media had been fair in its representation from the get go, this would have been defused right at the start of it. Instead, they thought they could get away with using their megaphones to insult and defame a big chunk of their own audience. And that's where it exploded, not this Quinn stuff. The irony is that most of this gamergate community is actually liberal, and they lost this audience. Absolutely.

What exactly are the reasons why RPS, Polygon, Kotaku, Gamasutra et al are under fire? Is it because they are known for shady journalistic practices? For completely abandoning journalistic integrity?
No. It's because these sites dared to publish articles that the people who now make up gamergate disapprove of, namely articles that point out that games, and gaming culture, does have quite a few systemic issues. It's not about integrity or ethics for the people of gamergate, even if they proclaim it loudly. It's about defending something you like and do not want to see change.

You see, there is a point to be made about shady journalistic practices in games media. Gamergate, however, isn't making it. A recent instance of outright bought youtube content didn't draw any ire from them (Or if it did, Shadow of Mordor's sales numbers do not reflect it). But holy ****, as soon as someone is pointing out that gamergate is associated with harassment and idiocy? You bet your ass you'll get to hear from them. In harassing and idiotic ways, no doubt.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
You're absolutely wrong. It was totalbiscuit (!) who reported on that youtube shadow of mordor stuff, and more to the point, it had nothing to do with "journalism integrity", that was something about the publishers. And yet, it was widely discussed, just not so under the #gamergate hashtag. Even still, you like many others, use this as a talking point. More mudslinging.

Of course you'll hear if you are accusing a group of people to be mysoginists. The adverse would be newsworthy. The **** man, if the newspapers started publishing in droves on how the atheists were msyoginists and racists and rape apologists* you think the whole twitter and the internet wouldn't turn itself into a ****ing ****storm? Of course it would. "Ah you say you are only interested in this god question but the whole harrassment that is going on in the meanwhile all around us proves you're a mysoginist!". Guilt by association and the whole deck of fallacies don't matter anymore, mainstream journalists just use them unashamedly to bash a wide heterogeneous bunch of people. The ****ing tone, so patronizing and despicable. Of course people are going on flames about this. Start treating people like people and this whole ordeal will subside in one ****ing day. Good luck with that.

 *by gods, even a guy interviewed by that Escapist series was accused of being a ****ing rape apologist because he dared wrote a blog post on how rape is just as fair to be represented in games as murder or torture or any other thing, it depends on the way you do it - doesn't matter, it's a rape apologist, such BAD BAD people

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Gender objectification in games
...
it's because when the people who now make up gamergate were demanding that they take on an official code of ethics that would explicitly forbid having close personal and/or financial relationships with the subjects they are writing about those sites responded with a coordinated series of articles calling their entire readership irrelevant (at best).

an example of a site that was in the crosshairs of gg initially but enacted reform and is now considered acceptable by most gg people is the escapist.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12224-The-Official-Ethics-Policy-of-The-Escapist
that's all the GG people were asking for. in stead they got told they were, just so passe.
(related article: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/12223-The-Escapist-Publisher-Issues-Public-Statement-on-Gamergate )

If we are posting news reports about it here is a recent one I liked (huffington post)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtzrUsi6Y1s
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Offline The E

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Re: Gender objectification in games
You're absolutely wrong. It was totalbiscuit (!) who reported on that youtube shadow of mordor stuff, and more to the point, it had nothing to do with "journalism integrity", that was something about the publishers. And yet, it was widely discussed, just not so under the #gamergate hashtag. Even still, you like many others, use this as a talking point. More mudslinging.

Why wasn't it discussed under the hashtag? Why is "journalistic integrity" only an issue when journalists aren't writing consumer reports? Why is it NOT an issue when you have a class of not-quite journalists that is coopted as an extension of a marketing campaign?

What, I ask you, is the point of gamergate? What is its victory condition? What is it that they want to achieve, and how much relation does it bear to what the movement is actually achieving?

it's because when the people who now make up gamergate were demanding that they take on an official code of ethics that would explicitly forbid having close personal and/or financial relationships with the subjects they are writing about those sites responded with a coordinated series of articles calling their entire readership irrelevant (at best).

Because, dear Bobboau, that's a completely stupid and unrealistic demand. Noone in journalism (like, real world political journalism) is taking it seriously. These morons are demanding that people whose job it is to maintain and develop contacts in the games industry do so in strict business terms with no human interaction allowed, and that is just not going to happen.

Basically, if that's the stance you're taking, you should immediately stop reading any political journalism.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Listening or reading the very media that is under fire and criticism from gamergate is not necessarily the best way to get accurate unbiased information. That's part of the problem, actually. If all the media had been fair in its representation from the get go, this would have been defused right at the start of it. Instead, they thought they could get away with using their megaphones to insult and defame a big chunk of their own audience. And that's where it exploded, not this Quinn stuff. The irony is that most of this gamergate community is actually liberal, and they lost this audience. Absolutely.

QFT. I did not initially care about GG at all. I was thinking, whatever, the evidence is dubious at best, and even if it was true, who cares, some woman using sex to obtain an advantage is nothing new or particularly bad.. What changed my mind was the subsequent reaction, when both reddit and 4chan(!) banned GG talk and the series of "gamers are dead" articles published in sync by major gaming media - http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2gsslk/is_there_a_list_of_all_the_gamers_are_dead/ . Anyone remembering Sarkeesian, Elevatorgate or Adriagate controversies? The "witchhunt" in those cases was perhaps even more vigorous, but nothing like that has happened, no attempts at censoring the issue on major forum sites. This for me is a far better evidence of nefarious background practices and coordinated political agenda-pushing than any dubious "Five Guys" video. If journalists and forum admins want to be referred to as unbiased, they should at least pretend to be.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Because, dear Bobboau, that's a completely stupid and unrealistic demand. Noone in journalism (like, real world political journalism) is taking it seriously. These morons are demanding that people whose job it is to maintain and develop contacts in the games industry do so in strict business terms with no human interaction allowed, and that is just not going to happen.

Basically, if that's the stance you're taking, you should immediately stop reading any political journalism.

1)you are assuming I read any political journalism to begin with
2)if it's so unrealistic how did the escapist (and actually it's whole family of sites) pull it off in a week?
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Offline The E

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Re: Gender objectification in games
1)you are assuming I read any political journalism to begin with

Just saying that these supposed rules you want for games journalism are far outside of what traditional journalists work with.

Quote
2)if it's so unrealistic how did the escapist (and actually it's whole family of sites) pull it off in a week?

Did all the journalists working in the games part of Escapist publically renounce any and all personal friendships and relations they have in the games industry? No? Then they didn't pull it off, according to your definition of "it".

EDIT: Also, how ridiculous is this "no patreon" rule? Yeah, that'll show those damn indies and their marketing teams that good coverage can't be gotten that easy! No, you want good reviews, you gotta do what AAA does and fork over cash. Yeah. That's ethical journalism.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 09:04:34 am by The E »
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Why wasn't it discussed under the hashtag? Why is "journalistic integrity" only an issue when journalists aren't writing consumer reports? Why is it NOT an issue when you have a class of not-quite journalists that is coopted as an extension of a marketing campaign?

Because it wasn't an issue with gaming journalism. It was an issue with the publisher trying to do some unethical **** and they were caught doing it... not by the media gg is criticizing, but by totalbiscuit, who is an avowed gamergate sympathizer. It was discussed under another banner. I find these attempts to concern trolling and whatabboutery around what others want from a tag something that quite honestly is annoying.

Quote
What, I ask you, is the point of gamergate? What is its victory condition? What is it that they want to achieve, and how much relation does it bear to what the movement is actually achieving?

This is the question. I think GGs are a bit confused over this one. They speak about journalism integrity, and its a core aspect to it, it's like an overarching theme, but I think the bigger part of it is the perception that a particular aggressive ideology paired with favored mediocrity has taken over journalism. People will then say silly things like "I want game reviews to be OBJECTIVE!!" while saying stuff like "Games are about FUN!", well, fun is probably the most subjective stuff out there, so that ain't it. I think "Gamerz" want to go back to a moment in time where games were just for fun. That hardcore literal analysts didn't come to ruin their experience, tell them they are experiencing nasty sexist, racist, violent stuff (like what they learned to hear from their moms their whole life I guess), etc., etc. It doesn't help when half the feminist activists find games like Bayonetta sexist to abhorrent levels, and the other half find it uptlifting, "owning your own sex", positive, etc. Which is it?

I'm at odds with this "endgame". I find quite the opposite, that what lacks in current game journalism is not the disappearance of a particular ideological viewpoint around games, but heterogeneity in these viewpoints and ideologies.

But that's not what is driving gamergate at this point. What is driving it is precisely this awkward relationship with the journalistic establishment that is defaming them to smithereens. I find it amazing that the journalists are talking down to their audience like this, I had never seen anything like it (then again, all this **** about twitter and so on is so novel). All we hear is how Anita or Wu are being harrassed and not one single digital pixel about how ggs are being harrassed. All we hear is how gamergaters are bad. The narrative must hold: Gamergate are the Orcs from Mordor that must be crushed by the shining knights of humanity. The big paradox here is that by being so selective in their sources and stories they tell, the media is further establishing their own corruption in the minds of gamergaters. They have lost objectivity and fairness. It's a battle between news organizations and the very audience, who are in their own way trying to get alternative sources of information.

The big loss here is in journalism. I think in this respect that this #gate is a symptom of two wars going on. The first is the wider journalism crisis, whose industry is collapsing in front of our very own eyes. This must be creating a sort of weariness and a sense of anxiety on reporters, but it's definitly creating all sorts of bad incentives towards clickbait techniques and editorial lapses of ethical standards. The second is a wider culture war between hardcore feminists and the wider "patriarchal" society.

This is why it hasn't faded by now. I even suspect it is possible (albeit far fetched) people around the Verge and so on are fueling this **** on purpose. It could all be absolutely over by tomorrow if all these sites were to suddenly stop the name calling, be fair at their reporting (reporting abuses for all sides, show how women and minorities are actually well represented within gamergate, etc.) and dare ask bigger questions, dare be inclusive and humble, and so on. Tomorrow. But I'm afraid this is not going to happen, because there's a driving force behind this push, it's an ideological force that is whispering in these people's hears "these white cis male basement dweller gamers are mysoginist transphobic scum, we are revolutionizing games and paving the way to a better world, a better society, this is a war and by gods we're gonna win this!".

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Gender objectification in games
The funny thing is that everyone involved is riding the wagon for every last inch they can get out of it by the looks of things.

There seems to be an attempt in some quarters to make the word 'Gamer' have a negative, derogatory meaning of 'being homophobic, misogynistic and violent', ironically, much like other people tried to create a similar image of 'Feminist', as being a 'man-hating *****'. It'd be ironic if it wasn't tragic.

It also wasn't all that long ago that those same publications were getting furious about comments by politicians trying to push age-restriction laws in some US states that were based on precisely the same 'one-size fits all' definition of those who played the games.

To be honest, I don't give a damn about 'Gamergate' itself, it's pretty inconsequential when you consider the other possibilities for conflicts of interest in gaming sites and reviewers (I believe someone mentioned the new Alien game already), but the way it's been blown up out of all proportion, the way the trolls have been allowed to manipulate the situation, and the way the gaming press have reacted to it are all contributing to a cluster**** of epic proportions.


 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Dias, on a whim I looked at your twitter page and noticed you'd recently retweeted an image being spread by Gamergaters right now, I'd like to call attention to that image:

http://t.co/j5TTxn43zL

For those who don't know, Brianna Wu is an indie developer and the third woman driven from her home with death threats shortlt after she harshly criticised Gamergate. She's now being accused of uttering an autistic slur. Now take a look at twitter username of that alleged post.

@spacekatgal. Notice the s is lowercase. When her twittername is shown in all of her other posts, the s is capitalized. In all of her posts. Always always always. If you're wondering why twitter would allow a fake account with that change, look at the l at the end. It's an old trick when impersonating someone on twitter to replace an l with an uppercase i.

Please stop spreading fabricated evidence created to smear a gamergate critic who was driven from her home by death threats. Please be more careful and check this stuff before you spread it.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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