Author Topic: Gender objectification in games  (Read 122897 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
You have no idea of what I just talked about up there, do you? Your wording also makes it clear you do not master the english language very well. You have a particular idea of what one means with an "agenda" that is quite different than the one I'm using here.

If you are a feminist, then you have an agenda. This is not rocket science. Keep up.
You're going to be horrified when we team up with the Gay Agenda and the Godless Agenda.

The article was a response to GG. That's all it was.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Ok, now you're just being silly. You're using the word as if it's something nefarious, in order to make me look a conspiracy theorist or whatever.

It's not. It's a lot simpler. Academia has influence on all movements, and feminism is no exception since there is a lot of material being produced in academia about gender studies. These papers have found their influential path to certain key people in blogging and journalism, who in turn advanced the idea about gamers in a way they saw fit, the way they think the world is like and how it should be.

There is nothing nefarious or "woo" about this. But it exists, it's part of our world. It's how these conversations sometimes develop. The gamer concept has been taken as problematic by the feminist movement for quite a while now, and last months we have seen the frontline soldiers of journalism attacking it, directly linking to these academic sources that painted the concept as problematic.

Again, this is not rocket science, nor like the truther movement. It's right there, black and white. It's what it is, not less, not more, just so. It could even be the right agenda, the ending of this concept. The way it was handled though, was nasty. And still is.

If you're going to derail or deflect once more, I'll ignore you henceforth. I have no more time today to deal with this.

  

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
You're still accusing a critic whose most passionate work has been several essays on why MGS3 is her favorite game ever of being involved in a movement to destroy the 'gamer'.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 12:40:48 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Reverse Ad hominem much? Look I was serious regarding time, it wasn't snark. I have to work.

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
It's not. It's a lot simpler. Academia has influence on all movements, and feminism is no exception since there is a lot of material being produced in academia about gender studies. These papers have found their influential path to certain key people in blogging and journalism, who in turn advanced the idea about gamers in a way they saw fit, the way they think the world is like and how it should be.

Oh god is this about the digra conspiracy?

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
It's not. It's a lot simpler. Academia has influence on all movements, and feminism is no exception since there is a lot of material being produced in academia about gender studies. These papers have found their influential path to certain key people in blogging and journalism, who in turn advanced the idea about gamers in a way they saw fit, the way they think the world is like and how it should be.

Oh god is this about the digra conspiracy?
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
Ok, now you're just being silly. You're using the word as if it's something nefarious, in order to make me look a conspiracy theorist or whatever.

It's not. It's a lot simpler. Academia has influence on all movements, and feminism is no exception since there is a lot of material being produced in academia about gender studies. These papers have found their influential path to certain key people in blogging and journalism, who in turn advanced the idea about gamers in a way they saw fit, the way they think the world is like and how it should be.

Again, this is not rocket science, nor like the truther movement. It's right there, black and white. It's what it is, not less, not more, just so. It could even be the right agenda, the ending of this concept. The way it was handled though, was nasty. And still is.

Right then.

Prove it.

 
 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
And just in case someone still needed evan moar convincing...
Gjoni admitted he posted his rant for entertainment value. Still think he was telling the truth?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 03:08:49 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
And just in case someone still needed evan moar convincing...
Gjoni admitted he posted his rant for entertainment value. Still think he was telling the truth?

****ing hell. I can't believe you derive that conclusion from what he said there. Read what he's talking about. He's saying that the whole document that he was writing was becoming boring TL DR. He says that he needed a ton of evidence and he put it in, but the problem was that it was becoming a legal kind of document that no one would ever read, which would enable others to dismiss his rant (because, again no one would read it). So he added "entertainment value". This is not a lie, he says he changed the tone so it could become readable for the long rant that it is.

I mean, forget all about this, that comes from a link your twitter friend posted (http://www.donotlink.com/framed?563624):

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In the weeks leading up to the publication of “thezoepost,” Gjoni said he consulted with more than a dozen friends and colleagues, mostly men and women in the Boston tech scene, about the content of the article and the potential fallout. One of them, Rachel Martin, is a 25-year-old freelance designer who described herself as a radical feminist. Martin described Gjoni as “gentle and conscientious” and said that she condoned the publication of “thezoepost” because of her own past as a victim of emotional abuse, which she felt Quinn had committed against her friend.

My emphasis. Yeah it really looks like the general sort of thing a liar would do. Asking friends and even his mother (!) for advice to whether if he should publish his story or not.

The overwhelming abuse that ensued (and most of it might have been systemic, not malicious, in the sense of how the internet with its twitter and facebooks and so on are structured in a way that amplified all of this to magnitudes that no one really expected) should not be attributed to that lone sad man. The "Quinnspiracy" might have prompted the people who then surged in #gamergate to high gear, but these are not the same things.


Right then.

Prove it.

I had, in a previous post. Pay attention.

The trail is not that hard to follow, it's quite simple and unspectacular. In this regard I disagree with many gamergaters who think this is a "big feminist conspiracy!" No it's not a "conspiracy". That word implies something nasty was being coordinated in secrecy. It was nothing like that. It was just ideology from academia with an agenda being lifted to prominence by using (mostly) digra sources and conferences to the blogosphere, youtube and news sites. There was nothing nefarious going on. It was just normal people who just tried to change the world to a better place using the knowledge they had from their social degrees and the contacts they had to make them count. They wrote papers discussing issues within gaming and the social structures around it, other people gathered and discussed how they could have an influence on how things are, other people read said sources and conversations and posted their thoughts on the internet, which in turn gave way to be posted by the gaming press as a way to go forward in all this shenanigan.

It doesn't mean however that it isn't an ideological agenda. It is. And that's not even the ****ing problem.

The problem, as I see it, is its total dominance on the gaming media, there are basically no other agendas in play, and whenever people disagree with this one, they either shut up about it (because of any ****storm they encounter) or they get labeled as douchebags. This dictatorial tone has been on stage for months now. It is partly the character of this new feminist wave, but it is also the typical elitistic condescending tone that has been the mark of the gaming media for quite a while now. Remember how they ghastly defamed the ReTake Mass Effect movement as well, who had nothing like today's twitter to defend itself from the shameless drivel that was constantly being thrown at them? Remember how pathetic that mudslinging was, given how that game had hilarious 10/10 reviews all over the place?

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
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Remember how they ghastly defamed the ReTake Mass Effect movement as well, who had nothing like today's twitter to defend itself from the shameless drivel that was constantly being thrown at them? Remember how pathetic that mudslinging was, given how that game had hilarious 10/10 reviews all over the place?

No. I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
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I had, in a previous post. Pay attention.\

You remind me of Nakura when you talk like that 0_o - I AM paying attention.


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The trail is not that hard to follow, it's quite simple and unspectacular.

Then prove it! Seriously. All you have posted so far are allegations.

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The "Quinnspiracy" might have prompted the people who then surged in #gamergate to high gear, but these are not the same things.

Minor nitpick: The Quinnspiracy predates #gamergate, there's no "surging in". #gamergate at the start simply was a new label for Quinnspiracy.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 03:59:46 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Did he also consult with his mother before advising some slut shaming videos being made by 4channers?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:05:57 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
I have posted the links, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over until you are satisfied I'm sorry. Read the blog post by Dan Golding. It links to an academic paper that was written by someone on digra on these issues. There are summaries of these conversations in the internet that clinch this connection but those are tl dr shenanigans.

Saying I'm like someone else that you dislike isn't the best approach Joshua, come on.

Did he also consult with his mother before advising some slut shaming videos being made by 4channers?

Why are you asking me this? Why are you pinning me down on this person's poor choices in his life? I don't relate to his post traumatic response at all. But to misinterpret it as a pure invention is not the most correct induction here, I'd argue. That's it.

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
I have posted the links, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over until you are satisfied I'm sorry. Read the blog post by Dan Golding. It links to an academic paper that was written by someone on digra on these issues. There are summaries of these conversations in the internet that clinch this connection but those are tl dr shenanigans.

Ehrm, yeah. The problem is that you are extrapolating this to the entire branch as if it was some co-ordinated effort.

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Saying I'm like someone else that you dislike isn't the best approach Joshua, come on.

Hey, my point is that you act like this stuff is and should be taken for granted. You seem to talk down to people who are skeptical about this ****.
I am very skeptical about this **** and feel rather talked down to. Hence.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:12:33 pm by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
Remember how they ghastly defamed the ReTake Mass Effect movement as well, who had nothing like today's twitter to defend itself from the shameless drivel that was constantly being thrown at them? Remember how pathetic that mudslinging was, given how that game had hilarious 10/10 reviews all over the place?

No. I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
Quote
I had, in a previous post. Pay attention.\

You remind me of Nakura when you talk like that 0_o - I AM paying attention.


Quote
The trail is not that hard to follow, it's quite simple and unspectacular.

Then prove it! Seriously. All you have posted so far are allegations.

Quote
The "Quinnspiracy" might have prompted the people who then surged in #gamergate to high gear, but these are not the same things.

Minor nitpick: The Quinnspiracy predates #gamergate, there's no "surging in". #gamergate at the start simply was a new label for Quinnspiracy.
Gamergate began with a tweet by Adam Baldwin (that Adam Baldwin) which contained a link to the Burgers and Fries video. The one accusing her of ****ing 5 journalists for good reviews. Reviews which don't exist.

So there's one statement of yours that is indisputably false.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:16:09 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
And 4chan took it up, obviously. As much as you want to deny involvement with 4chan, Luis, this is *their* movement.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
I have posted the links, I'm not going to repeat myself over and over until you are satisfied I'm sorry. Read the blog post by Dan Golding. It links to an academic paper that was written by someone on digra on these issues. There are summaries of these conversations in the internet that clinch this connection but those are tl dr shenanigans.

Ehrm, yeah. The problem is that you are extrapolating this to the entire branch as if it was some co-ordinated effort.

What do you mean "entire branch"? Do you deny that these game media sources all posted the same story about how gamers are over in the exact same day? If you look at them, they either point to each other (horizontal reporting, lazy meh) or they point to Dan Golding's own blog post. We know that many of these reporters from different sites have (or had?) a means of communicating between themselves through a mailing list and they have been using it to coordinate things.

Again, that is not a bad thing. In this discussion between totalbiscuit, Greg Tito and Janelle Bonanno, Greg makes a compelling case for its good use. But, again, this is a proof that this coordination exists. Again, it's also not something nefarious (the usual conclusions that these grassroots movements do is to conclude that everything they find is nefarious... sigh), but it did exist.

And 4chan took it up, obviously. As much as you want to deny involvement with 4chan, Luis, this is *their* movement.

It was everywhere, not 4chan. Most sites just blocked this discussion entirely, 4chan included (!), and deleted tens of thousands of comments entirely.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Gender objectification in games
And 4chan took it up, obviously. As much as you want to deny involvement with 4chan, Luis, this is *their* movement.
And 4chan kicked them out. Their response? They blamed the site admin's (moot's) GIRLFRIEND.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 
Re: Gender objectification in games
Quote
What do you mean "entire branch"? Do you deny that these game media sources all posted the same story about how gamers are over in the exact same day? If you look at them, they either point to each other (horizontal reporting, lazy meh) or they point to Dan Golding's own blog post. We know that many of these reporters from different sites have (or had?) a means of communicating between themselves through a mailing list and they have been using it to coordinate things.

Prove *that*.

I don't deny that people posted articles in a short timeframe. I do deny that it actually means anything or that it chimes in to your statement that "this agenda is the only agenda". Rock Paper Shotgun, for example, did not post such articles, and I am sure there are plenty of other sites that did not do that either. Gamesutra itself posted an article that disagreed with Leigh Alexander's article hours later, too.

There's plenty of evidence on this "mailing list" (it's actually a google plus group but whateveR) but all the pictures I have seen on it has... journalists disagreeing with each other! It does not stand up to occam's razor. Heck, for all I know, the journalists that wrote the articles weren't even on the 'mailing list'.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:24:51 pm by -Joshua- »