[Lorric]

But none of this tells me what GamerGate is actually concerned about. If Anita Sarkeesian plopped out of existence, what is GamerGate's agenda?

For me personally I think treating Gamergate as any kind of organised movement with clear goals is a mistake. At least right now. It might become one later, but for now it's clearly disorganised. Maybe it will evolve. Maybe it will burn out. Maybe it will tear itself apart. It might even get brought down by the opposition taking advantage of this disarray. I don't know. Me, I'm content to watch and wait. Ask different people tweeting the #, and I expect you'll get different answers. Like AtomicClucker said, it lacks a firm central figure or authority but is driven by a common sentiment fueled by frustration and anger. Would anyone even know where to go to get the "authentic" version of what Gamergate is supposed to be, right now?

Maybe some person or group of people will come along and unite the Gamergate masses, and then there'll be a real tangible movement with clear objectives and standards. Right now anyone can post under the hashtag because nobody asks anything of them. They don't have to meet any requirements. Anyone can jump on the bandwagon and no one can kick them off. Anyone can use it as a vehicle to push their own agenda. If a true movement got started, that would change.

[Grizzly]

Well this is why I do distance myself with the movement: it was founded by a coalition of strange bedfellows. From Adam Baldwin, Breitbard, to individual users, it carries a very loaded message. The fact they haven't imploded in the last three months is a strange story of somehow co-existing with so many crazies in a single cult following.

Causing the opposers to cast rather... whoa pieces like this The He-Man #gamergate-rs Club. Whatever message some gaters had, the whole movement has been co opted by anti feminists from the start. I agree with your "strange bedfellows" thing: If one is shown pieces like this, it is very hard not to draw the conclusion that Gamergate is actually an anti-feminist campaign as opposed to an "ethical journalism" one. It doesn't help that the people mentioned in that storify are all people that Lorric's first gamergate link (the posts on Eurogamer) link to.

[SypheDMar]

The thing is, we're all gamers here. But take a step back and think how that looks to the outsider who isn't steeped in this like we are. It makes gamers look like really scary people. And Anita gets column inches on a lot of non-gaming publications.

No, it doesn't make gamers look like really scary people. It makes "a reactionary community of hardcore gamers" look like... a reactionary community of hardcore gamers full of misogynists. It doesn't make "everyone who plays games" look bad because of the very point that the much-maligned-but-apparently-not-very-well-read "'Gamers' are Dead" articles were trying to make: lots of people play video games nowadays. An ever-increasing percentage of the general population plays games in the same way that a large percentage of the general population watches moves, and we don't call them "filmers" and they don't self-identify as "moviegoers"; they're just "people who happen to watch movies". If "a reactionary community of hardcore cinephiles" started harassing a movie critic for, shock and amazement, criticizing the content of movies, nobody would be worried that it "makes moviegoers look bad to outsiders". And you shouldn't be worried about how this makes "people who play video games" look to outsiders for exactly the same reasons.

This is basically what I got from the attempted explanations that were given regarding GamerGate. Is anyone for GamerGate as it stands in the media? Is there something else that GamerGate means to you?

I get that people have concerns, but GamerGate doesn't seem to be addressing any of that, and that's why it's so hard for me to even attempt to sympathize with them. Let's face it, there is a lot of misogyny going on with that hashtag.

This reminds me of the Tea Party and Occupy movements.

[Mr. Vega]

As for the doxxing and harassing? That's a big problem, and this is where I disagree with Vega firmly, but GG/Anti-GG can't control the Trolls, and frankly after GG decided to start compiling info on some of ZQs and Anita's harassers, I think it was a big step towards trying to clear up the flak. Many members of GamerGate have been harassed and doxxed in turn, and I don't see Anti-GG bashing an eye to that.

I've seen no evidence of doxxing on our side besides claims made by GGers who have also been involved in actual harrassment, but ZQ and others have strenuously told everyone opposed to Gamergate not to accuse others of false flagging without evidence and I'm going to honor that request (astroturfing is another matter because we have quite a bit of proof on that). Now, if you can find an equivalent on the anti-gg side of entire threads devoting to doxxing people, I'd love to see it, not that GGers wouldn't be howling to us by now if there were any actual examples of that sort.

Better yet, you can point out a Gamergate supporter who has been driven from their home and your false equivalency will be less false.

[AtomicClucker]

Well this is why I do distance myself with the movement: it was founded by a coalition of strange bedfellows. From Adam Baldwin, Breitbard, to individual users, it carries a very loaded message. The fact they haven't imploded in the last three months is a strange story of somehow co-existing with so many crazies in a single cult following.

Causing the opposers to cast rather... whoa pieces like this The He-Man #gamergate-rs Club. Whatever message some gaters had, the whole movement has been co opted by anti feminists from the start. I agree with your "strange bedfellows" thing: If one is shown pieces like this, it is very hard not to draw the conclusion that Gamergate is actually an anti-feminist campaign as opposed to an "ethical journalism" one. It doesn't help that the people mentioned in that storify are all people that Lorric's first gamergate link (the posts on Eurogamer) link to.

Yes, it's anti-Feminist as it is anti-Authoritarian. Many GGers feel like they're being dictated as "What gamers should and will be." Also, many echo an anti-Feminist jingo because people feel like PC bull**** was dumped on them without concern or nary a strand of realization from the media.

I do feel angry at the attempt to "Feminize" the culture, but my argument goes that trying to send a top-down message will mostly backfire (and many stupid Feminists have tried and failed to do so). Gamers of all varying sorts have revolted at the attempt. I earnestly believe we need to introduce Feministic (that is bringing down Feminism to a Gamer level) games and culture at the bottom most level: start with gamers and end with gamers.

Gamers should not fear Feminism: they should be educated into knowing what it is and how it benefits them. Carrying out such a task isn't easy, but I argue it is doable on the common level. Problem is that gaming media seems to be stuck in a mindset that I can dictate to the populace what the culture should be. The problem is "should" is an individual basis, and as a result, takes actual decision making powers out of the populace's hands.

And if the media hasn't figured out, they do deal with a rabid animal that will snap and what it perceives as an outside threat.

Better yet, you can point out a Gamergate supporter who has been driven from their home and your false equivalency will be less false.

Here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources

Jump into its heart and follow what the hell is going on. You continually say "gimme examples" now I'm telling you to go sort out your own damn mess. The onus, the burden on you is to abandon your tower and sludge it out the cesspool. Stuck in the trenches you shell get your answer. Only by getting dirty, and directly read what they say, can you figure it out.

Until then, I bid my hat to you. Remaining in that tower only feeds the fire.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Yes, it's anti-Feminist as it is anti-Authoritarian. Many GGers feel like they're being dictated as "What gamers should and will be." Also, many echo an anti-Feminist jingo because people feel like PC bull**** was dumped on them without concern or nary a strand of realization from the media.

If they do feel that way, they certainly don't seem to be saying so; they seem to be saying that feminist criticism of games is censorship and/or unethical journalism.

I do feel angry at the attempt to "Feminize" the culture

What attempt to "Feminize" the culture?

[Lorric]

On the subject of damage being inflicted on the other side, the person who wrote that In Defence of Rape article is very distressed.

http://talesofgrim.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/gamergate-ok-but-not-ok/

[Mr. Vega]

Gamers of all varying sorts have revolted at the attempt.

I'm glad you speak for everyone. Including me, my RL friends who I play games with, people on this forum who disagree with you, all the gamer developers and game journalists I've previously mentioned, and tons of people I've run into on the internet who have openly expressed support for Anita and Leigh Alexander. Dude, maybe we're not your shield. Who the **** do you think funded Anita's Kickstarter? If you think this is Feminist outsiders vs Gamers, you are just totally delusional. There is a much stronger bottom-up component to this than you want to admit.

And if the media hasn't figured out, they do deal with a rabid animal that will snap and what it perceives as an outside threat.

They send a barrage of rape and death threats?

The violent metaphors are not helping you.

[AtomicClucker]

Yes, it's anti-Feminist as it is anti-Authoritarian. Many GGers feel like they're being dictated as "What gamers should and will be." Also, many echo an anti-Feminist jingo because people feel like PC bull**** was dumped on them without concern or nary a strand of realization from the media.

If they do feel that way, they certainly don't seem to be saying so; they seem to be saying that feminist criticism of games is censorship and/or unethical journalism.

I do feel angry at the attempt to "Feminize" the culture

What attempt to "Feminize" the culture?

Well, the cultural attempt at "Feminizing" was lead by Anita with her criticism, and the body readily spat it back out with vitriol than even shocked me. Anita was the first to push the boulder down, and many followed in her wake. The problem is that the Gamers, already stuck on their own rut, felt quite defensive about it and some decided they could harass and threaten Anita to silence her. Was she in the right to criticize? I think she has plenty of room to do so. But the quality of that criticism? That's where I drew my personal line and opinions.

Since then, we've been in a continual circle of vehement threats, anger and rage over "criticism" but I felt the actual criticism could have been handled better on the parts of many of the critics. In typical Feminist fashion, many critics just threw out criticism (and fewer actually tried to contextualize it) to the point most gamers treated it as a threat to their existence. Rather than trying to study, understand, and comprehend why many gamers were antagonized, the line was towed that "Gamers are misogynists and have to be told what's right and wrong..."

The fact that toxic gamers have made it worse is a no-brainer. They took the criticism as "censorship" in the wrong ways.

Ultimately, I feel the "criticism" has to evolve with the medium and culture, and the criticism, has in a certain way, failed to do so. I get more of my game reviews, cultural outings, and other tidbits from Youtube personalities than I do the gaming media. The gaming media, especially with the entire bruhaha, has steadily retreated while other outlets have taken up that slack. Do Youtubers pander to GamerGate? Actually of them don't. But since they are in more general contact with gamers, many seem quite sympathetic because they are in steady contact and dialogue with their audience.

Anita has little or no contact with the audience (and she is perceived as an outsider), and her reception has been utterly horrible. But on the other hand, she didn't seem to study her audience first before making statements. I think what has happened with "Critics" is the notion that we need to know our audience has vanished. And as a principle, I think its high-time that the notion be reintroduced.

And before you tell me "You're censoring the critics!" it's actually recusing my own views that half of criticism is knowing your enemy.

[Mr. Vega]

Anita has little or no contact with the audience (and she is perceived as an outsider), and her reception has been utterly horrible.

Maybe in your circles, but not in mine. You're going to have to call me, Ralwood, Tim Schafer, and everyone else who's spoken positively of Anita outsiders for this to work.

[AtomicClucker]

Anita has little or no contact with the audience (and she is perceived as an outsider), and her reception has been utterly horrible.

Maybe in your circles, but not in mine. You're going to have to call me, Ralwood, Tim Schafer, and everyone else who's spoken positively of Anita outsiders for this to work.

Well, I could reason with you all I want. But as I said, trying to get you to leave your castle is nigh impossible. I'm just leaving the invitation for you to get dirty.

Getting back to critics, is it necessary for them to have an Art History degree? No. But I feel it would help from a rational basis on contextualization.

[Mr. Vega]

Well, I could reason with you all I want. But as I said, trying to get you to leave your castle is nigh impossible. I'm just leaving the invitation for you to get dirty.

If it's an a priori fact that I'm the one in the castle then we need to stop discussing this, because I'm by definition incapable of saying anything that you would listen to.

Moving on,

If someone wants to talk about corruption, yay! But GG is a name birthed in harassment and still being run in its main part as a harassment movement out of 4/8chan. If you get a new name, one without all the history and connotations gg has picked up, you'll be able to get out from the shadow of everything in gg that isn't about corruption. You won't have to say that you're a 'moderate' that doesn't like doxxing and death threats. You'll be able to focus on what actually matters to you, for real. As for us anti-GGers, it would really help if the reasonable ones would separate yourself from the 8channers so we could talk to you without waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Again, we're asking them to drop a name. If they say the name doesn't matter to them, why won't they ditch it if it's so toxic to so many people? I'd like to see actions line up with words, that's all I'm asking.

You could say something similar about Feminism though. While I'm no particular fan of the people who say it, it's quite clear that there are quite a few people who view feminism as basically being RadFem. Rebranding under a name such as equalism or some such would help with that. There would be no need to explain that you're a moderate feminist and not one of those RadFem nutcases. It would help if the reasonable ones would separate themselves from the idiots who believe that only lesbians can truly be feminists or the other nonsense I've heard from RadFem.

Hell, you could say much the same thing about almost any group which has extremists in it. Why don't Muslims rebrand so that everyone knows they aren't connected to ISIS?

Or Christians?

Or Bronies?


Rebranding may make it much easier for the people on the outside to box up people and decide who really is the enemy but is it really a sensible choice for the people in that group? If so, why hasn't anti-GG come up with their own classifications so that everyone knows who are the people that think gamers are neckbeards living in their mother's basements?

Whether or not Gamergate initially started out as a bunch of absolute tossers involved in hacking and trolling, that might not be all it is now. At the moment there are probably a lot of reasonable people in the GG movement who think it easier to take over the existing movement and make it into a useful tool for changing the way the gaming companies deal with the press than it ever would be to start from scratch. Engaging with them is a far more reasonable thing to do than to assume that everyone in the group must be a sexist arsehole simply because they won't change their name. I'm not saying that they shouldn't distance themselves from the name, just that I can see good reasons why they aren't willing to do so.


In the end, I'm fairly neutral on the whole picking sides thing because to be honest, I think both sides are claiming to have goals I support. I just wish they'd both put the energy they're putting into misunderstanding each other and arguing the same stupid talking points into something productive.

Are we going to compare Gamergate to feminism, Islam, the entire tradition of socialism and anarchism, or Darwinist theory? Do you think it deserves the same consideration the aforementioned received when bunch of morons some of whom started the whole damn thing do something terrible in their name?

It's hate movement that matured into an incredibly incompetent reaction against corruption in Video Games Journalism that somehow still wined and dined everyone from the earlier hate stuff so that noone could tell where one ended and the other began. What exactly is being lost when it dies?

[Flipside]

I will say that sometimes there is misconception in some of the arguments about Discrimination and Objectification in games.

What I mean by that is, take something like the 'Damsel in Distress' meme. The question as to whether it is belittling to women is a little more complex than it is made out to be, because it doesn't take into account the fact that stories tend to need a motivation and, in the toolbox of storytelling, rescuing the woman you love is kind of like the Hammer.

The meme does not exist to attack women in general, though FF raises some very good points about how it objectifies them, but there has been a natural drop in those kinds of storylines anyway for two reasons, firstly, because as the number of female gamers increases, that need to fulfill the male requirement to protect and be admired for such has reduced, and secondly because people are far more demanding in the way of storyline in games anyway.

That need in men has probably existed since we existed in Hunter/Gatherer groups and used to raid each other for resources (which, at that stage of our development, often included women).

Fixing that problem is going to require going far deeper into the male psyche than simply telling them it is 'wrong', it's hard-coded into us genetically and I can understand why men feel it is a threat to their masculinity as easily as I can see what is wrong perpetuating the meme that women exist to be rescued by men. It's lizard-brain stuff, and it's going to take a heck of a lot of work to untangle it properly.

[AtomicClucker]

Well, I could reason with you all I want. But as I said, trying to get you to leave your castle is nigh impossible. I'm just leaving the invitation for you to get dirty.

If that I'm the one in the castle is an a priori fact to you then we need to stop discussing this, because I'm by definition incapable of saying anything that you would listen to.

You could say something similar about Feminism though. While I'm no particular fan of the people who say it, it's quite clear that there are quite a few people who view feminism as basically being RadFem. Rebranding under a name such as equalism or some such would help with that. There would be no need to explain that you're a moderate feminist and not one of those RadFem nutcases. It would help if the reasonable ones would separate themselves from the idiots who believe that only lesbians can truly be feminists or the other nonsense I've heard from RadFem.

Hell, you could say much the same thing about almost any group which has extremists in it. Why don't Muslims rebrand so that everyone knows they aren't connected to ISIS?

Are we going to compare Gamergate to feminism, Islam, the entire tradition of socialism and anarchism, or Darwinism? Do you think it deserves the same consideration the aforementioned received when some moron does something terrible in their name?

It's hate movement that matured into an incredibly incompetent reaction against corruption in Video Games Journalism that somehow still wined and dined everyone from the earlier hate stuff so that noone could tell where one ended and the other began. What exactly is being lost when it dies?

It takes two to dance to a party. I feel it helps to analyze and discuss what lead to these events and why the atmosphere is so toxic. The Anti-GG side is quite vehement to it, and your insistence on moral high ground is exactly why we continue to have this problem. GG has declared they're not going to die until its mutual exhaustion. I think its important that we place GamerGate under scrutiny and understand its motivations. Hell, it's why I don't associate myself with the movement. They got lots of things I disagree with.

You can be "right," but that doesn't preclude you from engaging the other side in discussion. I'm insisting the moral high-ground has been destroyed by both factions.

[Mr. Vega]

Fixing that problem is going to require going far deeper into the male psyche than simply telling them it is 'wrong', it's hard-coded into us genetically and I can understand why men feel it is a threat to their masculinity as easily as I can see what is wrong perpetuating the meme that women exist to be rescued by men. It's lizard-brain stuff, and it's going to take a heck of a lot of work to untangle it properly.

Even if it's not true that you're overreacting in thinking male anxiety towards women is hardcoded based upon the transient problems we're facing now, the moment we mastered language the lizard brain stuff didn't matter to us as much. Culture is by its very nature not just based upon our genetic heritage. The same genes can produce wildly different social organizations and hierarchies, thought patterns, gender and age roles. We've already violated whatever how we were "programmed" to behave a billion times. Why stop now? What's so special about gender inequality?

[Mr. Vega]

Well, I could reason with you all I want. But as I said, trying to get you to leave your castle is nigh impossible. I'm just leaving the invitation for you to get dirty.

If that I'm the one in the castle is an a priori fact to you then we need to stop discussing this, because I'm by definition incapable of saying anything that you would listen to.

You could say something similar about Feminism though. While I'm no particular fan of the people who say it, it's quite clear that there are quite a few people who view feminism as basically being RadFem. Rebranding under a name such as equalism or some such would help with that. There would be no need to explain that you're a moderate feminist and not one of those RadFem nutcases. It would help if the reasonable ones would separate themselves from the idiots who believe that only lesbians can truly be feminists or the other nonsense I've heard from RadFem.

Hell, you could say much the same thing about almost any group which has extremists in it. Why don't Muslims rebrand so that everyone knows they aren't connected to ISIS?

Are we going to compare Gamergate to feminism, Islam, the entire tradition of socialism and anarchism, or Darwinism? Do you think it deserves the same consideration the aforementioned received when some moron does something terrible in their name?

It's hate movement that matured into an incredibly incompetent reaction against corruption in Video Games Journalism that somehow still wined and dined everyone from the earlier hate stuff so that noone could tell where one ended and the other began. What exactly is being lost when it dies?

It takes two to dance to a party. I feel it helps to analyze and discuss what lead to these events and why the atmosphere is so toxic. The Anti-GG side is quite vehement to it, and your insistence on moral high ground is exactly why we continue to have this problem. GG has declared they're not going to die until its mutual exhaustion. I think its important that we place GamerGate under scrutiny and understand its motivations. Hell, it's why I don't associate myself with the movement. They got lots of things I disagree with.

You can be "right," but that doesn't preclude you from engaging the other side in discussion. I'm insisting the moral high-ground has been destroyed by both factions.

AtomicClucker: All Gamers have been offended by this!
Mr. Vega: Allow me to give counter examples, starting with myself. Am I not a gamer?
AtomicClucker: You're in your castle with the other people who criticize Gamers, I can't debate with you.
Mr. Vega: That's your choice to decide I'm in a "castle".
AtomicClucker: You're not willing to engage with the other side!

Mr. Vega: I'm going to ignore the hypocrisy in your last statement and ask you again. So does this mean you don't think I'm a gamer? Let's forget everything that's been said up to this point. You claim that Gamers (with a capital G!) have all condemned Anita's feminist criticism. I don't. Do you get to decide who gets to be called Gamer and outsider? Better yet, why does the distinction matter so goddamn much to you?

[Lorric]

Well, I could reason with you all I want. But as I said, trying to get you to leave your castle is nigh impossible. I'm just leaving the invitation for you to get dirty.

If that I'm the one in the castle is an a priori fact to you then we need to stop discussing this, because I'm by definition incapable of saying anything that you would listen to.

You could say something similar about Feminism though. While I'm no particular fan of the people who say it, it's quite clear that there are quite a few people who view feminism as basically being RadFem. Rebranding under a name such as equalism or some such would help with that. There would be no need to explain that you're a moderate feminist and not one of those RadFem nutcases. It would help if the reasonable ones would separate themselves from the idiots who believe that only lesbians can truly be feminists or the other nonsense I've heard from RadFem.

Hell, you could say much the same thing about almost any group which has extremists in it. Why don't Muslims rebrand so that everyone knows they aren't connected to ISIS?

Are we going to compare Gamergate to feminism, Islam, the entire tradition of socialism and anarchism, or Darwinism? Do you think it deserves the same consideration the aforementioned received when some moron does something terrible in their name?

It's hate movement that matured into an incredibly incompetent reaction against corruption in Video Games Journalism that somehow still wined and dined everyone from the earlier hate stuff so that noone could tell where one ended and the other began. What exactly is being lost when it dies?

It takes two to dance to a party. I feel it helps to analyze and discuss what lead to these events and why the atmosphere is so toxic. The Anti-GG side is quite vehement to it, and your insistence on moral high ground is exactly why we continue to have this problem. GG has declared they're not going to die until its mutual exhaustion. I think its important that we place GamerGate under scrutiny and understand its motivations. Hell, it's why I don't associate myself with the movement. They got lots of things I disagree with.

You can be "right," but that doesn't preclude you from engaging the other side in discussion. I'm insisting the moral high-ground has been destroyed by both factions.

AtomicClucker: All Gamers have been offended by this!
Mr. Vega: Allow me to give counter examples, starting with myself. Am I not a gamer?
AtomicClucker: You're in your castle with the other people who don't agree with Gamers, I can't debate with you.
Mr. Vega: That's your choice to decide I'm in a "castle".
AtomicClucker: You're not willing to engage with the other side!

Mr. Vega: So does this mean you don't think I'm a gamer? Let's forget everything that's been said up to this point. You claim that Gamers (with a capital G!) have all condemned Anita feminist criticism. I don't. Do you get to decide who gets to be called Gamer and outsider? Better yet, why the the distinction matter so goddamn much to you?

That's not how I've interpreted this interaction at all. He's talking about a bunch of people, not everyone.

On you being "in your castle", it also doesn't help you to be going around with

I think #gamergate is the most embarrassed I've ever felt about being a "gamer". A movement? A BOWEL movement.
-Rob Florence

in your sig.

[Mr. Vega]

Gamergate: a movement supposedly about corruption in games journalism being harshly condemned by a man who actually left his job in disgust when he was censored for reporting on corruption. He was used as evidence of GG's rightness. Why then is he trashing them when you'd expect him to treat them like the cavalry coming to the rescue? Why is HE (and Jeff Gerstmann) anti-GG? Think about it. That's why I have the quote there.

C'mon, I dare you to brand Rob freaking Florence a close minded SJW.

[AtomicClucker]

Well, I could reason with you all I want. But as I said, trying to get you to leave your castle is nigh impossible. I'm just leaving the invitation for you to get dirty.

If that I'm the one in the castle is an a priori fact to you then we need to stop discussing this, because I'm by definition incapable of saying anything that you would listen to.

You could say something similar about Feminism though. While I'm no particular fan of the people who say it, it's quite clear that there are quite a few people who view feminism as basically being RadFem. Rebranding under a name such as equalism or some such would help with that. There would be no need to explain that you're a moderate feminist and not one of those RadFem nutcases. It would help if the reasonable ones would separate themselves from the idiots who believe that only lesbians can truly be feminists or the other nonsense I've heard from RadFem.

Hell, you could say much the same thing about almost any group which has extremists in it. Why don't Muslims rebrand so that everyone knows they aren't connected to ISIS?

Are we going to compare Gamergate to feminism, Islam, the entire tradition of socialism and anarchism, or Darwinism? Do you think it deserves the same consideration the aforementioned received when some moron does something terrible in their name?

It's hate movement that matured into an incredibly incompetent reaction against corruption in Video Games Journalism that somehow still wined and dined everyone from the earlier hate stuff so that noone could tell where one ended and the other began. What exactly is being lost when it dies?

It takes two to dance to a party. I feel it helps to analyze and discuss what lead to these events and why the atmosphere is so toxic. The Anti-GG side is quite vehement to it, and your insistence on moral high ground is exactly why we continue to have this problem. GG has declared they're not going to die until its mutual exhaustion. I think its important that we place GamerGate under scrutiny and understand its motivations. Hell, it's why I don't associate myself with the movement. They got lots of things I disagree with.

You can be "right," but that doesn't preclude you from engaging the other side in discussion. I'm insisting the moral high-ground has been destroyed by both factions.

AtomicClucker: All Gamers have been offended by this!
Mr. Vega: Allow me to give counter examples, starting with myself. Am I not a gamer?
AtomicClucker: You're in your castle with the other people who criticize Gamers, I can't debate with you.
Mr. Vega: That's your choice to decide I'm in a "castle".
AtomicClucker: You're not willing to engage with the other side!

Mr. Vega: I'm going to ignore the hypocrisy in your last statement and ask you again. So does this mean you don't think I'm a gamer? Let's forget everything that's been said up to this point. You claim that Gamers (with a capital G!) have all condemned Anita's feminist criticism. I don't. Do you get to decide who gets to be called Gamer and outsider? Better yet, why does the distinction matter so goddamn much to you?

Well, like my conversations with GGers, I'm done attempting to host a dialogue with you because, simply, you've closed the gates. GameGate is no mere hate or slander movement, it's the nexus of a toxicity that's very hard to examine and decipher. Your stubborness to change opinions or examine the circumstances is what leads me to ask, Wut happened?

Edit: @mods, I'll refrain from engaging Vega further, it's been a merry-go-round for a while.

[Lorric]

Gamergate: a movement supposedly about corruption in games journalism being harshly condemned by a man who actually left his job in disgust when he was censored for reporting on corruption. He was used as evidence of GG's rightness. Why then is he trashing them when you'd expect him to treat them like the cavalry coming to the rescue? Why is HE (and Jeff Gerstmann) anti-GG? Think about it. That's why I have the quote there.

C'mon, I dare you to brand Rob freaking Florence a close minded SJW.

You're missing the point.

If you're going to have a reasonable and open minded discussion with someone about Gamergate, what kind of message do you think that sig is going to send before you even get started?