[Colonol Dekker]

Spider-Woman's Big Ass is a Big Deal!:

apparently so.

[Mars]

I laughed. As far as I can tell he's correct.

[Colonol Dekker]

I'm in a state of concurrence.

[The E]

Ugh. What a painful rant. He's a got a few points, but honestly? That style isn't very good for making them.

In addition, some of his points are quite stupid. "Noone cared when this happened to <male character> a decade ago" isn't a good reason why noone should care now when a female character is depicted that way. "This has always been done this way" is not a good reason to continue doing it.

[Luis Dias]

That may be so, but the typical rant on how this is a showcase of blatant societal mysogyny, rape culture and what not, falls flat when you learn that in fact men have been depicted this way forever. Maddox is right here, this has been the comics style for ages now, and it has nothing to do with "sexism". Perhaps a charge of "hyperssexuality" can be done, and that's a lot fairer I think. Still, the fact that this was only a scandal when it hit a woman's depiction is again the usual trite that is getting old very very fast, annoying as **** when people claim to be a special target for having a specific gender. No, people, it's not that, it's just that you are ****ing lazy at observing and maths.

(This is incidentally one of the feminism worst traits, they state they are all for equality but for obvious reasons only cry foul when they feel women are being targeted, and they don't even care to look the other way if their accusations are even true in the first place. Just watch the old mantra on how Barbie dolls are patriarchal nonsense because they create this impossible to recreate image of beauty that women should crave for, Barbie has been this symbol for ages, and if you just show them a typical picture of He-Man (or any other badass human hero for which there are innumerous toys to buy) they should see how stupid their argument is, but instead they just keep at it).

And don't get me started at "viking women were also warriors". My head is still hurting for the facepalms of the last week due to this nonsense.

[The E]

There's a reason why the Hawkeye Initiative is a thing though.

[karajorma]

In addition, some of his points are quite stupid. "Noone cared when this happened to <male character> a decade ago" isn't a good reason why noone should care now when a female character is depicted that way. "This has always been done this way" is not a good reason to continue doing it.

No, but it is a good reason not to go completely up the wall about it. When you make comments like "You'd never see a man depicted like that!" which are completely and utterly false it does mean that you need to include an argument for why it's bad for a woman to be depicted that way but not a man.

Or you can just say "Hey, that's how comic books are for both sexes" and leave it at that.

What you can't do is complain about it being a sexist depiction for women, but not men and leave it at that.

[Luis Dias]

There's a reason why the Hawkeye Initiative is a thing though.

That was one of the dumbest pages I've ever seen in my life. No, that doesn't work, because what is "sexually attractive" in men is way different than what it is in women. It's no surprise all those "switches" make men not "sexy" but rather just full blown gay. Men have probably an unconscious taste for women in submissive poses, while women are the exact opposite. They like alpha males with big muscles and filled with strenght and confidence. This is why the switcheroo is just silly and fails to prove any point. Google search for "Superman", "Spider-man", "Captain America" and so on and so on, and you'll see hyperssexualized images of super heroes with super strenght, super confidence, superior alpha male beings capable of conquering it all.

And yes, their crotches are there for all to appreciate.

[The E]

Are you seriously going to claim that the power and action poses that male superheroes are drawn in and the tits & ass poses female ones usually get are the same? That they're both equivalently sexualized, or read as sexual by the intended audience?

[Bobboau]

see Goob, told you it'd be back within a couple days

[Luis Dias]

Are you seriously going to claim that the power and action poses that male superheroes are drawn in and the tits & ass poses female ones usually get are the same? That they're both equivalently sexualized, or read as sexual by the intended audience?

No, I am saying that that webpage is definitely not proving your claim.

And I'm saying that all these people making these indignated calls in the internet about how the industry is mysogynistic are lazy people who don't even fact-check their claims. They just run with it because it seems a rigtheous challenge, it looks like defending women, so go go go. That's not the way to go. See "half of viking warriors were women" for obvious example of the same asinine attitude.

Look, let me give you an olive branch here: It seems to me that prima facie all these comics are biased towards showing power fantasies for young men and sexual babes for young men. Because that's their target audience. I don't think that's even "mysoginy", it's just the market being the psychopathic bastard that it is, providing goods to cater to their demands. And I think it's appropriate to criticize it, and try to have new ideas in place, new women heroes that aren't hyperssexualized babes, go for it. But this particular thing is foolish pretensious nonsense.

[Grizzly]

That may be so, but the typical rant on how this is a showcase of blatant societal mysogyny, rape culture and what not, falls flat when you learn that in fact men have been depicted this way forever. Maddox is right here, this has been the comics style for ages now, and it has nothing to do with "sexism". Perhaps a charge of "hyperssexuality" can be done, and that's a lot fairer I think. Still, the fact that this was only a scandal when it hit a woman's depiction is again the usual trite that is getting old very very fast, annoying as **** when people claim to be a special target for having a specific gender. No, people, it's not that, it's just that you are ****ing lazy at observing and maths.

(This is incidentally one of the feminism worst traits, they state they are all for equality but for obvious reasons only cry foul when they feel women are being targeted, and they don't even care to look the other way if their accusations are even true in the first place. Just watch the old mantra on how Barbie dolls are patriarchal nonsense because they create this impossible to recreate image of beauty that women should crave for, Barbie has been this symbol for ages, and if you just show them a typical picture of He-Man (or any other badass human hero for which there are innumerous toys to buy) they should see how stupid their argument is, but instead they just keep at it).

Perhaps because He-Man and such figures are subjected to the exact same problem?. These gender stereotypes hurt men as well, but feminists are more interested in the female side because, well, they are female.

showing power fantasies for young men and sexual babes for young men. Because that's their target audience

Which is in itself, again, a stereotype being applied to men, which hurts men.

[Spoon]

Are spiderwoman comics now rated R-18 in australia?

I laughed. As far as I can tell he's correct.

+1 for that. Would upvote again.

[Luis Dias]

Which is in itself, again, a stereotype being applied to men, which hurts men.

That's debatable. What matters for the industry is what sells, and unfortunately the industry thinks boobs sell way better than characters. And unfortunately they are right.

That's what makes this spiderwoman's thing even more facepalmworthy. They could have picked so many **** from all comics. But no. They had to show this spiderwoman with the catchphrase no spiderman would be drawn like this. I mean, I could even swear this was written as a false flag operation. How dumb can you possibly be??!?

[Spoon]

I'm glad the industry thinks that way, because I happen to really like boobs.

[MP-Ryan]

Are you seriously going to claim that the power and action poses that male superheroes are drawn in and the tits & ass poses female ones usually get are the same?

In a word, yes; the artist is depicting them in a manner that the audience derives pleasure and reinforcement from.

That they're both equivalently sexualized,

Yes; comics, like many mass media, sexualize males through hyper-masculinity and alpha-male stereotypes; women are sexualized through submissive positioning and emphasis of primary+secondary biological sexual characteristics.  While female characters often are depicted showing more skin, the males are depicted as overly-muscled/chiseled, often in tight clothing to emphasize those features.  That the depictions are rendered differently does not make one more or less sexualized than the other.

or read as sexual by the intended audience?

Consciously?  No.  Subconsciously?  Absolutely.  There is a reason that male characters designed to appeal to a male audience (particularly adolescents) are not depicted as obese, slovenly, smelly, with neckbeards and a penchant for their mother's basements.  The structure of sexual objectification of men and women in media is different, but the outcome is nearly identical.

[karajorma]

These gender stereotypes hurt men as well, but feminists are more interested in the female side because, well, they are female.

The immediate response to which is usually "Well, why should we men give a flying **** about gender stereotypes which hurt women then?"


If you don't go after the root cause (gender stereotypes) you only hurt your argument because you allow people to point at things like He-man, etc and ask why they aren't being dealt with. This is actually my biggest problem with modern feminism. If you concentrate only on "women's problems" you quickly lose half your audience.

[deathfun]

"This has always been done this way" is not a good reason to continue doing it.

In the cases of artistic style, there is no viable reason to tell someone to change drawing techniques.
Basically, what I'm saying is that there is no good reason to force someone to stop doing it

Specially in these cases where it's basically life drawing with paintjobs for both sexes

[Luis Dias]

Well to be fair, in the case of most women, they are only half, at best, painted.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Male power fantasies are not female sexual fantasies (which is not to say there is no overlap, but the primary purpose is not the titillation of female readers).