[Flipside]

I think comics is possibly a bad place to look anyway if you are just going to go on appearances. The styles used are based on Renaissance statues of heroic proportions, and ironically what most people remember about those Statues is that David had a small willy....

I suppose if you look at just the pictures and didn't read the stories, you could say it's objectifying women, but then, just by looking at the women and not bothering to take their opinions and actions into account, that's objectifying them to the same degree.

This is always a point where things tend to trip up by trying to help too hard. Objectifying women isn't just the fact that they dress scantily etc, women should have as much right to do that as they wish, same as anyone else, objectification is when those women are depicted as vacuous, silly and incapable of taking care of themselves.

Fact of the matter is that most of the women in the Comic Universe are strong, independent and perfectly capable defending themselves. Yes, they may be drawn as power fantasies, but that's just one aspect of the character, and it isn't really fair to just judge by one aspect.

Now, that doesn't get Comics completely off the hook, there have certainly been characters that don't meet those criteria (many of them dragged along like a comet-tail for 50ish years)

I suppose the way I see it is that there's nothing wrong with a scantily clad, strong woman. If we, however, start seeing the scantily clad before the strong, then aren't we just as guilty of jumping to conclusions from appearances as the very people we stand against?

[MP-Ryan]

Male power fantasies are not female sexual fantasies (which is not to say there is no overlap, but the primary purpose is not the titillation of female readers).

I don't see anyone actually saying that they are...

[Nuke]

this is me not caring. i never liked spiderman anyway, dont care that they made the female version a prostitute. superheroes never much appealed to me, and one of the reasons was the hypersexuality of both genders. i dont understand the practicality of wearing a skin tight outfit that could neither withstand combat nor huge changes in temperature, both of which are things superheroes have to face on a regular basis, and it just looks silly. modern incarnations of batman are at least somewhat practical in their costumes, fully clothed and decked out in body armor. you still got abs of steel but batman is a ninja and that is to be expected. its even less practical for someone like superman who could do the same job in jeans and a t shirt and would probibly be fat because of earth's relatively low gravity. there are just too few justifications for being scantily clad regardless of gender.

[666maslo666]

Nobody takes kindly to hypersensitive people who see -isms everywhere. If you want to show examples of sexism you should pick solid ones otherwise it is likely to do more damage than good to the cause.

[Flipside]

this is me not caring. i never liked spiderman anyway, dont care that they made the female version a prostitute. superheroes never much appealed to me, and one of the reasons was the hypersexuality of both genders. i dont understand the practicality of wearing a skin tight outfit that could neither withstand combat nor huge changes in temperature, both of which are things superheroes have to face on a regular basis, and it just looks silly. modern incarnations of batman are at least somewhat practical in their costumes, fully clothed and decked out in body armor. you still got abs of steel but batman is a ninja and that is to be expected. its even less practical for someone like superman who could do the same job in jeans and a t shirt and would probibly be fat because of earth's relatively low gravity. there are just too few justifications for being scantily clad regardless of gender.

You seem to be under the impression that comics are real, you could just as justifiably ask why Cyclops doesn't burn his own face off, or how do these heroes manage to talk to each other in space. The reason for lack of clothes or skin-tight ones is that it is supposed to enhance the physique of the character. It's not about having an excuse to do it, it's about projecting an image of strength.

As I mentioned earlier about the statue of David, he isn't naked with his cock out for the titillation of others, he's doing it because it is the purest form of human physique, people's problem with nudity is their problem, not the comics, but it's easier in our minds to change the comics than to change ourselves.

[Nuke]

it just seems excessively shallow. i know thats what comic readers expect. its probibly also why i dont give two ****s about comics.

[Flipside]

I think the problem is we need to draw a line (if you'll pardon the pun) between women being 'sexy' and women being 'sex objects'. Women may want to be sexy, but they don't want to be sex objects.

Take the She-Hulk as an example, partly because there was some Drama over her recently with her being referred to as a 'Big Green Porn Star'. It seems strange to me that the person who said this completely ignored the fact that she is also depicted as an intelligent, qualified lawyer, a team leader and someone who will willingly sacrifice herself for others. Those attributes were ignored and instead someone only saw green boobies and then claimed he's defending women's rights by doing so.

There's nothing wrong with her character enjoying being 'sexy', the problems arise when other people claim that her attitude is evidence of sexism, because they are, quite literally, just judging by appearances.

[deathfun]

As I mentioned earlier about the statue of David, he isn't naked with his cock out for the titillation of others, he's doing it because it is the purest form of human physique, people's problem with nudity is their problem, not the comics, but it's easier in our minds to change the comics than to change ourselves.

Alternatively, we force everyone to take Life Drawing classes
Which is honestly, an experience everyone should go through because it teaches more than just how to draw

[Mars]

The narrative I often see in the ultra-conservatives is that nudity is bad and is thought of as the result of excessive 'feminism.' I think the theoretically more open minded seeing nudity as a sexist thing does no one any good - it all just removes attention from real issues that at least the United States has in terms of gender equality. This most definitely including the large relative consequences of nude photos for women compared to men.

 Yes the points weren't all  well thought out- but any form of media that dismisses criticism of what amounts to simple nudity, I tend to see as a good thing.

[AtomicClucker]

Personally I'm sick of the bull**** that Internet Feminazis dredge up to assault Geekdom daily. Rather than promoting and strengthening the depiction, representation, and even exploring the issues of women, they just *****.

"Oh, look those misogynists!"

"How dare they think like men!"

"Men are rapists, Troll roflmo!"

These dip****s can safely sit behind a veil of Internet (mainly Tumblerinas and Twitteristas) spouting bull**** that would make my former Philosophy Department's Women's Studies unit to commit seppuku several times over. There is indeed a problem with sexism, depiction of women, etc. There are all legitimate problems, but between the "Gamer" raeg, death threats, idiot logic of Anita Sarkesian and ****ing outmoded Second-Wave feminists who happily ride the ego train on Twitter and Tumblr, I think there's a serious problem within radical Feminism itself. Gamers are stupid, that's a given, and prone to really dumbass behavior such as rape threats and death threats, still not okay by any moral or ethical means.

We've still got issues with pay gaps between women and men, sexual harassment, issues of gender/sexual culture gaps, and even the advertising industry's idiocy. What these Internet "stars" want is nothing more than attention, ego boosting, and blind followers rather than working towards the empowerment, progression of women, and bringing women's issue to the foreground. They stupidly believing that by "changing" men they can make progress. As one crazy put it, after a contestant on Miss America said women have a right to defend themselves, "No! Men have to be taught not to rape women!"

What?! Is she (said Feminazi) delusional in believing that women don't have a right to defend themselves? Quite frankly so.

I.E. It's mostly hot-air that gets idiots on all sides riled up. I bet ya most of these "Feminists" would break if they actually tried to make a game or similar media that spoke on women's issues. Frankly, most Post-Second Wave feminists only know how to *****, whine, and ***** some more than rolling up sleeves and getting **** done. Most Feminists are known to cry wolf, few actually get a rifle and shoot the wolf.

Internet Feminists make my brain hurt by many degrees, and I can understand the reason why many in the middle ground don't bother getting involved. You can't reason with nutcases.

So what, Spider Woman's ass?

Doesn't change the fact that these same critics (yes, I'm railing hard on the Post-Second Wave feminists) are easy to lay blame, neglectful to try and change the perception by hard work and sweat. Literally my geek/nerd/Intellectual side is firmly insulted by the quagmire over really dumb things.

So end of my crazy rant?

In a nutshell, complaining about Spiderwoman's ass is just that, complaining, Most internet feminists are downright lazy, and insult the "title" they try to hold.

Critques are valid, indeed, but in a day and age where anyone has a right to complain, the sole few actually work to make a positive change. As my usual line: "More women into the Geek industries, more stories, games, comics, and stuff that speaks from a woman's experience and issues."

[Dragon]

It's a bit funny that comics, of all things, were attacked here. Not only I found them (well, the movies and cartoons, anyway. I rarely read actual comics) fairly even with regards to their treatment of men and women, they're highly stylized and employ numerous tropes so characteristic of the genre that without them, they'd be unrecognizable. I'd say, from a logical point of view, there's little a reason for some of the most powerful Superheroes to even wear any clothing, other than "traditional" human modesty (see Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen, who came to that very conclusion after a while). Yes, they're sexualized to a degree, but it's arguably a degree acceptable to most people or either gender. Both men and women will show skin and wear form-fitting clothing if they're comfortable with how they look. Nudity, even being completely nude, isn't wrong. What is wrong is seeing other people only in sexual terms. And I'd say, comic book heroines (and heroes as well) do well in that regard, too. They are interesting, intelligent characters. There is a tendency for female heroes to have female villains (and vice versa, male heroes and male villains), but that seems to be pretty well mixed up, too.

[Beskargam]

The strong backlash and use of terms like feminazis really hurts any argument madeon this topic. You are comparing some feminists to the actual Nazis, which we associate with WW2 and the holocaust. Are those feminists killing large numbers of people? No. The comparison is ludicrous and insulting and does nothing to further this debate.


Especially as hlp is a primarily male audience, it behooves us to be a little more careful about the tone and the terms used in sensitive topics like this one. Have a little respect, even when you disagree. Sweeping generalizations, dismissive/derogatory tones should have no place in this discussion.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Male power fantasies are not female sexual fantasies (which is not to say there is no overlap, but the primary purpose is not the titillation of female readers).

I don't see anyone actually saying that they are...

That they're both equivalently sexualized,

Yes; comics, like many mass media, sexualize males through hyper-masculinity and alpha-male stereotypes; women are sexualized through submissive positioning and emphasis of primary+secondary biological sexual characteristics.  While female characters often are depicted showing more skin, the males are depicted as overly-muscled/chiseled, often in tight clothing to emphasize those features.  That the depictions are rendered differently does not make one more or less sexualized than the other.

[azile0]

I wholly agree with Besk. Care needs to be taken when discussing feminism online, because dropping terms like 'femininazi' severely undercuts your credibility. Complaining about feminists complaining does nothing but ignite hot heads and keep bad blood, and isn't a contribution to debate.

[Flipside]

Good to see people trying to calm things down, I was worried that post was going to be the start of a long depressing spiral.

The thing is, it's never wise to judge a group by their most extreme exponents, and yet every side tends to do it. It's like saying that mainstream Christianity is accurately represented by the Westboro Baptist Church. Yes, you can argue that they simply take Christian views and stretch them to the limit, but that's kind of what every extremist group does with its views.

'The Gaming Community', that mysterious homogenous group that doesn't strictly exist, is judged by the 'Trolls', feminists are judged by the 'Feminazis' etc.

That's not the way to do it.

[Luis Dias]

While I agree with the sentiment regarding terms like "feminazi" I'm a bit disappointed that that was the only take people got out of AtomicClucker. Then again, it proves his point that with all the **** flowing around in the internet regarding those tumblerite arguments, sensible people with common sense reasoning will just rather not get involved.

And I even think that's not only reasonable, it's absolutely the rational thing to do. Which, in turn, is probably for the worst...

[Flipside]

Agreed, AC does make some points that are perfectly valid, however, the moment I saw that word I thought 'Well, there goes the thread....'

[Turambar]

I think this thread needs more pics of SpiderWoman's ass.  If possible, some pics from the comic as well.

This should help us make a clearer judgement on whether or not it's offensive, or simply fantastic.

[karajorma]

You are comparing some feminists to the actual Nazis, which we associate with WW2 and the holocaust. Are those feminists killing large numbers of people? No.

While it's a completely unfair depiction of even many radical feminists, there are some really radical ones who kind of remind me of Karl Marx in that what they write makes kind of sense on paper, but would lead to disaster on a national scale if it was ever put into practice.

Still, it's not a good term because there's no self-identification. The result is that even fairly reasonable feminists get lumped in with the idiots.

[MP-Ryan]

Male power fantasies are not female sexual fantasies (which is not to say there is no overlap, but the primary purpose is not the titillation of female readers).

I don't see anyone actually saying that they are...

That they're both equivalently sexualized,

Yes; comics, like many mass media, sexualize males through hyper-masculinity and alpha-male stereotypes; women are sexualized through submissive positioning and emphasis of primary+secondary biological sexual characteristics.  While female characters often are depicted showing more skin, the males are depicted as overly-muscled/chiseled, often in tight clothing to emphasize those features.  That the depictions are rendered differently does not make one more or less sexualized than the other.

...and I then went on to explain how that sexualization of males is directed at a male audience for their purposes in the very next paragraph.  See:

or read as sexual by the intended audience?

Consciously?  No.  Subconsciously?  Absolutely.  There is a reason that male characters designed to appeal to a male audience (particularly adolescents) are not depicted as obese, slovenly, smelly, with neckbeards and a penchant for their mother's basements.  The structure of sexual objectification of men and women in media is different, but the outcome is nearly identical.

Seriously, everyone, stop picking single lines out of entire posts on a subject to nitpick an argument the original author is NOT making.