Author Topic: Spider-Woman's ass  (Read 23428 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Let me just say three things.

It's not impossible to change a culture. It's been done countless times, with far greater obstacles. Those who say otherwise have their mind trapped within the next week, next month, next year. The question I and people like Anita are asking is, what kind of culture do we really want? Is this really how we want things to be?

Two, ok, so we can talk about things like gender pay gaps and domestic violence rates, but not the attitudes that lie behind them? That often reveal themselves in places like comics and video games? Or perhaps, if i want escapism, I want escape from having to deal with that **** too. The 'importance' argument is a lazy argument, and a bad one.

Three, I am under no obligation to listen to anyone who rants about "feminazis", and anyone who expects me to does not think highly of my self worth. Saying things like that tell me enough about one's character to allow me to dismiss them as much as I please. AC, do you have the balls to call me a feminazi? Yes, I am a man. A man who calls himself a passionate feminist, and who fully supports Anita and Zoe Quinn. Are you willing to say the same thing to someone's face that you said about others from a safe distance? I'd like to see how important the word is to you.

Also, this is Third Generation feminism, not Second. First was the Suffragettes. Second was 1960s (Women's Liberation). Third is what you're ranting about now. At least get your terms right.

[Note to admins. I'm not trying to start a fight. I actually want to see what his answer is.]
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 01:49:34 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Also, this is Third Generation feminism, not Second. First was the Suffragettes. Second was 1960s (Women's Liberation). Third is what you're ranting about now. At least get your terms right.

To be fair, he referred repeatedly to post-second wave feminism, not second wave.  Which is a perfectly reasonable term, in that there is frequently a debate (with some second-wave feminists being among the loudest) if there is actually a distinct third-wave feminism at all, as the feminists who are supposedly a part of it are quite a diverse lot with diverse objectives (ranging from the extreme bat**** "we don't need men to continue the human race" strains of radfem to much more moderate feminists who have adopted queer and racial interests into feminism generally).

</clarifying nitpick>

Carry on.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Flipside

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Quote
It's not impossible to change a culture. It's been done countless times, with far greater obstacles. Those who say otherwise have their mind trapped within the next week, next month, next year. The question I and people like Anita are asking is, what kind of culture do we really want? Is this really how we want things to be?

I don't want things to be puritanical either, look where that led last time.

There's a line it's incredibly easy to cross when 'protecting women' where we are actually protecting our own stereotype of what women like and want instead of actually talking to a representative group of women. And by representative, I mean 'not just those that see sexism in it'.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 03:09:34 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Male power fantasies are not female sexual fantasies (which is not to say there is no overlap, but the primary purpose is not the titillation of female readers).

I don't see anyone actually saying that they are...
Quote
That they're both equivalently sexualized,

Yes; comics, like many mass media, sexualize males through hyper-masculinity and alpha-male stereotypes; women are sexualized through submissive positioning and emphasis of primary+secondary biological sexual characteristics.  While female characters often are depicted showing more skin, the males are depicted as overly-muscled/chiseled, often in tight clothing to emphasize those features.  That the depictions are rendered differently does not make one more or less sexualized than the other.

...and I then went on to explain how that sexualization of males is directed at a male audience for their purposes in the very next paragraph.  See:

Quote
Quote
or read as sexual by the intended audience?

Consciously?  No.  Subconsciously?  Absolutely.  There is a reason that male characters designed to appeal to a male audience (particularly adolescents) are not depicted as obese, slovenly, smelly, with neckbeards and a penchant for their mother's basements.  The structure of sexual objectification of men and women in media is different, but the outcome is nearly identical.

Seriously, everyone, stop picking single lines out of entire posts on a subject to nitpick an argument the original author is NOT making.
My entire point is that it isn't a sexual fantasy; it's a power fantasy.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Also, this is Third Generation feminism, not Second. First was the Suffragettes. Second was 1960s (Women's Liberation). Third is what you're ranting about now. At least get your terms right.

To be fair, he referred repeatedly to post-second wave feminism, not second wave.  Which is a perfectly reasonable term, in that there is frequently a debate (with some second-wave feminists being among the loudest) if there is actually a distinct third-wave feminism at all, as the feminists who are supposedly a part of it are quite a diverse lot with diverse objectives (ranging from the extreme bat**** "we don't need men to continue the human race" strains of radfem to much more moderate feminists who have adopted queer and racial interests into feminism generally).

</clarifying nitpick>

Carry on.
Look above that. "Outmoded second-wave feminists."
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline AtomicClucker

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Let me clarify it simply, "Feminazi" perhaps isn't the best term, being a monstrosity coined by Rush Limbaugh. And perhaps it was too harsh and loaded.

But I'll stand by my point they're idiots, like the MRAs and other morons they argue with.

But I tend to argue (I studied under Post-Second Wave and Third Wave feminism), that the Internet Feminists are so firmly ego-tied that they literally worship the "Myth of Feminism," similar to how certain "Myths" were the foundations of Nazi and Marxist ideologies. They spout near-religious tenets and rabid idiocy that makes me wonder if it's a Cult of Personality rather than a movement (and I most assure you Feminism IS a movement, not a Party). Second Wave feminism brought up lots of points, and certainly lots of yelling, and helped to push through social changes that started with the First Wave. Then issues such as free expression, self-determined sexuality, and yep, pr0n, came along and shook Second Wave Feminism to pieces.

Third Wave feminism, is a lot more fragmented, but opened a can of worms about female sexuality that Second Wave feminists considered degrading and oppression, whereas several former Second Wave feminists began to ask question about self-determination, a woman's right to her own sexual expression and determination that lead to a split. But I consider Third Wave's greatest achievement was the "recognition of the self" as opposed to a lot of Second Wave organizations that tended to lean towards group think. There are 3rd Wave Feminists who actually find Pr0n empowering, while others get involved in artwork that deals with female erotica and touching things the Second Wave would shriek at like a bunch of stuttering hens.

There's a clear difference when a counter-organization finally recognizes the need for women to start changing the culture, i.e. Fine Young Capitalists, and they've been getting some **** from the Twitteristsa and Tumlbrinas for actually trying to do something.

It's an outdated, ill-informed, and often dumb idea to attempt to demand culture to change without actually doing anything, and even neglecting to speak from a woman's perspective. Let's take the Feminist Art for example, I use Judy Chicago as an important goal-post, because hell, she actually did something, and rather than complain, she actually tried to speak and celebrate the idea, the notion, of women. A lot of Feminist Art was driven less by the need to "criticize" the Patriarchy and more to speak to the audience about a woman's world. And frankly a lot of Feminist artists are UNDER fire by Feminists for not appealing to set base of ideas, the problem rooted back to Feminism being a loosely affiliated movement instead of a centralized organization.

There's no central tenets to Feminism aside from striving for gender equality and women's enfranchisement.

Frankly, those are so much more powerful than a women squawking about "Gamers being misogynist,"

Women making games, comics, and other things, plus getting those works recognized and sold, would be more successful, and I dare say, intimate to the audience, than trying to force the AAA games industry to shill out to meet "Politically Correct" goals. Plus with the Internet crowd sounding like they came several decades behind the curve, it leads me to challenge their actual legitimacy to understanding what is Feminism.

Edit: I should clarify there's a distinct difference between Post-Second Wave and Third Wave feminists. Post-Second Wave feminists still maintain a strong connection to the fireworks of the Second Wave movement, but the Third Wave feminists actually "evolved" with the times and began to ask new questions, and gasp, worry less about the Patriarchy, and work on more personal and intimate levels.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 04:10:27 pm by AtomicClucker »
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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My entire point is that it isn't a sexual fantasy; it's a power fantasy.

I think it's actually a combination of the two, but not a female sexual fantasy as you appeared to believe I was saying earlier.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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My entire point is that it isn't a sexual fantasy; it's a power fantasy.

I think it's actually a combination of the two, but not a female sexual fantasy as you appeared to believe I was saying earlier.
If it were intended as a direct response to you, I would have quoted you directly in the original post, even given the extra time it would have taken due to being on a phone; regardless, as I said, just because it can double as a sexual fantasy doesn't mean that was the intent behind its inclusion.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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If it were intended as a direct response to you, I would have quoted you directly in the original post, even given the extra time it would have taken due to being on a phone; regardless, as I said, just because it can double as a sexual fantasy doesn't mean that was the intent behind its inclusion.

True; although, if we're to consider direct conscious intent as being relevant to the assessment of inclusion of elements of sexual objectification in a piece, it also excludes a fair proportion of what may be perceived of as male sexual fantasy (female sexual objectification).  Very few artists actually show evidence of conscious intent behind their renderings which are sexually objectifying (it's not as if virtually anyone states it outright).

Either intent matters, or it does not.  If one wants to argue that certain depictions of females are sexually objectifying regardless of intent, then one cannot argue that male power fantasies are irrelevant as sexual objects because they were not intended as such.  The converse is also true.

Personally, I think context matters, but intent (being a purely subjective determination) does not.  Which leads to my earlier conclusion:  sexual and power fantasies/politics strongly overlap for all gender identities (wave to Foucault everyone).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 05:51:31 pm by MP-Ryan »
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

  

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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If it were intended as a direct response to you, I would have quoted you directly in the original post, even given the extra time it would have taken due to being on a phone; regardless, as I said, just because it can double as a sexual fantasy doesn't mean that was the intent behind its inclusion.

True; although, if we're to consider direct conscious intent as being relevant to the assessment of inclusion of elements of sexual objectification in a piece, it also excludes a fair proportion of what may be perceived of as male sexual fantasy (female sexual objectification).  Very few artists actually show evidence of conscious intent behind their renderings which are sexually objectifying (it's not as if virtually anyone states it outright).

Either intent matters, or it does not.  If one wants to argue that certain depictions of females are sexually objectifying regardless of intent, then one cannot argue that male power fantasies are irrelevant as sexual objects because they were not intended as such.  The converse is also true.

Personally, I think context matters, but intent (being a purely subjective determination) does not.  Which leads to my earlier conclusion:  sexual and power fantasies/politics strongly overlap for all gender identities (wave to Foucault everyone).
First you use "conscious intent", then you switch to just "intent", as though the terms were synonymous. They are not; there is such a thing as subconscious intent. You'll note that the word "conscious" was likewise missing from my own post.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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I don't want things to be puritanical either, look where that led last time.

This. There are issues of obvious sexism in media where we should strive for some cultural change. Then there are issues like this spider womans ass (or strip club scene in Hitman) where there is no real evidence of sexism. People complaining about such things are either misinformed and should be corrected, or indeed, just puritanical, dont like to see stuff with a hint of sexuality in it, and then they should be actively opposed.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Quote
no real evidence of sexism

Assigning any sort of absolute terms to something which is not in any way absolute (such as gender and the issues surrounding it) is problematic. Esp. when those things occur in art. There is not a hard line to be drawn here, and if there is, it's not up to you.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 02:31:08 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Assigning any sort of absolute terms to something which is not in any way absolute (such as gender and the issues surrounding it) is problematic. Esp. when those things occur in art. There is not a hard line to be drawn here, and if there is, it's not up to you.

When you take into account that Spiderman was also usualy depicted in tight clothing with prominent ass when crawling around just like Spiderwoman, then yes, all claims of sexism (concerning this particular photo) evaporate with pretty absolute certainty.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Assigning any sort of absolute terms to something which is not in any way absolute (such as gender and the issues surrounding it) is problematic. Esp. when those things occur in art. There is not a hard line to be drawn here, and if there is, it's not up to you.

When you take into account that Spiderman was also usualy depicted in tight clothing with prominent ass when crawling around just like Spiderwoman, then yes, all claims of sexism (concerning this particular photo) evaporate with pretty absolute certainty.
Yes, because cultural context is completely irrelevant and two identical poses couldn't possibly have different meanings under any circumstances.

 :rolleyes:
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Yes, because cultural context is completely irrelevant and two identical poses couldn't possibly have different meanings under any circumstances.
 :rolleyes:

Yes, something like that actually. Women in tight clothing with prominent ass = men in tight clothing with prominent ass. Thats not sexism, thats just mildly sexualy explicit images, which I am OK with sometimes cause I am not a puritan. Any "cultural context" implying sexism is merely in your head and then it is you, not the society or art that has a problem to solve.

If Spidey was depicted with loose covering clothing while Spiderwoman was all tight and revealing for no good reason, that would be actual sexism and a cause for some activism. Not otherwise.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 04:04:21 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
That's debatable. What matters for the industry is what sells, and unfortunately the industry thinks boobs sell way better than characters. And unfortunately they are right.

Some sort of inner-necro, but - I see this getting thrown around a lot, but I have never actually seen some solid stuff on why this is true, if at all.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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First you use "conscious intent", then you switch to just "intent", as though the terms were synonymous. They are not; there is such a thing as subconscious intent. You'll note that the word "conscious" was likewise missing from my own post.

Mine was shorthand; there actually is *not* such a thing as "subconscious intent."  Conscious intent and intent are precisely the same thing.

Quote

intent

[mass noun]
Intention or purpose

 adjective

1 (intent on/upon) Determined to do (something):

intention

 noun
1A thing intended; an aim or plan:

1.1 [mass noun] The action or fact of intending:

Subconscious motivations do not constitute intent for any legal or philosophical purpose.

So again, either intent matters, or it does not.  One cannot have it both ways when it is convenient to make a point about sexual objectification of women while ignoring the same objectification in similar contexts of men (and transgendered, and the myriad of other gender identities).  The fundamental point I'm making here is that some forms of media - comics among them - objectify both genders on both the basis of power and sexuality together with great frequency, and focusing merely on a quarter of the whole picture (sexual objectification of women specifically) does the greater potential injustices a serious disservice.

This is one of the problems I have with some forms of feminism that I brought up in an earlier thread:  some feminists get so caught up in looking at single examples or areas of objectification directed specifically at women that they have a habit of ignoring the larger context which is actually more problematic to begin with.  I think that's a fair bit of what's going on in the case of Spiderwoman.  There are so many problems with power/gender depictions in comics that it's absolutely laughable to pick one depiction of Spiderwoman as a serious case study of how women specifically are being objectified while other gender identities are not.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 09:43:15 am by MP-Ryan »
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Some sort of inner-necro, but - I see this getting thrown around a lot, but I have never actually seen some solid stuff on why this is true, if at all.

It's probably a hard statement to prove. Perhaps more solid would be to state that it is a lot easier to draw boobs than designing complex rich likeable characters filled with great writing. And they still sell. A great boob in a cover will sell quite a lot.




 

Offline Mr. Vega

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First you use "conscious intent", then you switch to just "intent", as though the terms were synonymous. They are not; there is such a thing as subconscious intent. You'll note that the word "conscious" was likewise missing from my own post.

Mine was shorthand; there actually is *not* such a thing as "subconscious intent."  Conscious intent and intent are precisely the same thing.

Quote

intent

[mass noun]
Intention or purpose

 adjective

1 (intent on/upon) Determined to do (something):

intention

 noun
1A thing intended; an aim or plan:

1.1 [mass noun] The action or fact of intending:

Subconscious motivations do not constitute intent for any legal or philosophical purpose.

So again, either intent matters, or it does not.  One cannot have it both ways when it is convenient to make a point about sexual objectification of women while ignoring the same objectification in similar contexts of men (and transgendered, and the myriad of other gender identities).  The fundamental point I'm making here is that some forms of media - comics among them - objectify both genders on both the basis of power and sexuality together with great frequency, and focusing merely on a quarter of the whole picture (sexual objectification of women specifically) does the greater potential injustices a serious disservice.

This is one of the problems I have with some forms of feminism that I brought up in an earlier thread:  some feminists get so caught up in looking at single examples or areas of objectification directed specifically at women that they have a habit of ignoring the larger context which is actually more problematic to begin with.  I think that's a fair bit of what's going on in the case of Spiderwoman.  There are so many problems with power/gender depictions in comics that it's absolutely laughable to pick one depiction of Spiderwoman as a serious case study of how women specifically are being objectified while other gender identities are not.
Personally I think it's laughable that we've been spending most of our time talking about how "some feminists" get the issue wrong than the issue itself. This is what actual anti-feminists do to obfuscate and distract. Why the hell are we doing it? Exactly what is the threshold for something that's ok to comment about, MP-Ryan? How dare he use one example you didn't think was important enough! What, does he need to add one more to get certified?

Seriously, this is nitpicking disguised as serious concern. If you can't  stand discussing casual sexism in comics and games because they're 'trivial', why don't we go into the more serious stuff then that might interest you?
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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For the record.




Miss Marvel is better.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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