Author Topic: Those riots across the US  (Read 15881 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Those riots across the US
how they are so trigger happy that they kill 12 year old kids on the spot for having toy guns on their hands.

To waste time discussing Wilson is a waste.


I agree that the focus should be on institutional racism and the militarisation of the police.  So bringing up a similarly divisive case is not the best way to keep the focus on the subject you want. Especially given that like in the Brown case there are differing points of view and video evidence of him pointing the replica gun at the police officers who shot him!

Of course these are all divisive cases. I don't think the cops are bad people, so I'm sure they both killed Wilson and this young boy without true malice. Why do you think it being "divisive" is relevant anyway? The problem here is militarization and trigger happiness. It's also to do with the wider gun culture of America. Should the cops have behaved differently? I don't know, you tell me. All these ghastly cases seem to come from one single country, so I would imagine that other countries happen to solve these issues in a thousand times better way.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Those riots across the US
This is not the only country these things happen in.  It's just the one where they most frequently get made into (inter)national news.  Those crazy, gun-happy Americans, amirite?  :rolleyes:
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Those riots across the US
Must I have to post statistics here that prove my point beyond any reasonable doubt? Because I have work to do and basic knowledge of the world really bores me.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Those riots across the US
Well, I think Turks in Germany probably face many similar problems to what blacks in America face. Just not getting shot, which is kind of a big one.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Those riots across the US
As someone who grew up in St.Louis their entire life I can tell you the issue is more about the cops being nepotistic selfrighteous entitled ****s than racial tension. Not that there is no racial tension (honestly it's more class tension, but class is divided strongly along racial lines), but the Cops are 'I am the law' assholes and they do cover for each other. They may have been totally in the right here, but I can guarantee you we'll never be able to know one way or the other, though if the FBI  (or some such) gets involved we may be able to tell if there was a coverup.
But at least Ferguson has cops, at least Ferguson isn't East St.Louis, where Escape From New York was filmed.

but the question I have to ask is why are they burning down their own neighborhood, if they really wanted to get back at the rich white land owners they'd be throwing molotovs at the Bentleys of Chesterfield, Creve Coeur, or if they really had balls Ladue.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 10:00:20 am by Bobboau »
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Re: Those riots across the US
Quote
but the question I have to ask is why are they burning down their own neighborhood, if they really wanted to get back at the rich white land owners they'd be throwing molotovs at the Bentleys of Chesterfield, Creve Coeur, or if they really had balls Ladue.

Tear gas is flammable.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Those riots across the US
I'm not sure what you are implying. are you saying that all of the businesses torched were part of a police conspiracy? I mean I can buy that the cops destroyed evidence to protect themselves, but I just get an amusing mental image of the local fire chief knocking on the door of the local police station with an axe in his hand and a look on his face with about 30 other firefighters lined up behind him. "Commissioner! We shall have words!"
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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Those riots across the US
Prior to joining the Ferguson police force, Darren Wilson was on a force at Jennings, Missouri that was disbanded and replaced after receiving numerous allegations of corruption and excessive force. We just can't get rid of these guys.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Re: Those riots across the US
I'm not sure what you are implying. are you saying that all of the businesses torched were part of a police conspiracy? I mean I can buy that the cops destroyed evidence to protect themselves, but I just get an amusing mental image of the local fire chief knocking on the door of the local police station with an axe in his hand and a look on his face with about 30 other firefighters lined up behind him. "Commissioner! We shall have words!"

Ehr, NO?

I am just saying that the police also has a hand in making things escalate, not just the protestors.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Those riots across the US
Prior to joining the Ferguson police force, Darren Wilson was on a force at Jennings, Missouri that was disbanded and replaced after receiving numerous allegations of corruption and excessive force. We just can't get rid of these guys.
Why was he allowed to join at Ferguson, then? Perhaps the problem is at recruitment level. This kind of person should have not been allowed to join the police. Especially not after being found guilty of any sort of conduct unbecoming a policeman.

Honestly, I can say both sides are equally guilty. Last time I've heard of the case, the whole deal with the shooting itself played out more like an unfortunate accident. There was a petty thief, an armed policeman, a huge misunderstanding and a short, tragic fight. It should have ended there, with the policeman punished, the family compensated and storeowner given his stolen stuff back. Now, though, both sides are pulling increasingly implausible evidence, strange videos and various odd arguments (he paid for the stuff at the store, then pulled a toy gun at the policeman? And there's a video evidence for both? Just why would he, short of being DA-worthy idiot?). Personally, I'm not inclined to believe either side. The way the situation is developing is just appalling. What happened to the old "Protect and Serve" motto? This is what police is for, they're not supposed to be infallible, but also not free of responsibility for their mistakes, either. If a supposed "police force" neither protects the people nor serves them in any way, then why not disband it altogether? Most Ferguson cops are no "true" policemen, as far as I'm concerned, they're thugs dressed in police blues (or MARPAT, when they drop the pretense). As for the protesters, their hooligan-to-activist ratio seems about the same as policeman-to-thug ratio in Ferguson PD.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Those riots across the US
The worst are those comments everywhere in the nets saying that he got "what he deserved" because he was obviously a thief. Since when should anyone accept a society where judge Dredds are navigating through the streets killing everyone for the smallest crime they pull off?

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Those riots across the US
I just want to add a little something on behalf of law enforcement personnel everywhere. I've been in situations where you're dealing with a populace that is generally hostile and potentially dangerous to you. In such cases, behavioral cues are huge, but there's also plain bald statistics that people like to dismiss if they happen to have any racial connotations.

For example, the 18-35 demographic is far more likely to participate in unlawful, violent acts than the 35-55 demographic. Simple fact of life, stupidity of youth, etc. I don't think anyone would have much issue with that statistic.

Here's another one. People of ethnic group ABC are statistically more likely to not pick their dog's poop up than people of ethnic group XYZ. Perhaps it's a cultural thing among ABCers... they do tend to live clumped into their own neighborhoods and not intermingle with the XYZians, after all. However "racist" it may be, this simple fact can and will guide my actions - I see an ABCer waking their dog down the street towards my house, I'm going to keep a close eye on them to make sure they pick that **** up. Not because I hate ABCers, or think they're inferior, but because simple statistics show that that's the wise thing to do if I want to keep my lawn turd-free.

Bringing this back to law enforcement personnel, they deal with potential life-threatening situations on a daily basis. They probably don't want to die our even get injured themselves, so they'll do the wise thing (typically) and be more wary of those ethnic groups who STATISTICALLY-SPEAKING are more likely to cause them harm. If you want to pull the racist card in such situations, look first to the statistics before you go blaming the people.

Now, let me close by saying that what I just wrote may not apply whatsoever to the Brown/Wilson incident, because of this history of past behavior or that video evidence... I don't care because I'm addressing the general topic of racism in the police forces overall, not this specific case.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Those riots across the US
Now, though, both sides are pulling increasingly implausible evidence, strange videos and various odd arguments (he paid for the stuff at the store, then pulled a toy gun at the policeman?

I believe you are mixing up two recent shootings here..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice

lol!
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Those riots across the US
The jury heard a lot more evidence than anybody who was not in that courtroom, and the justice system says that what they decided is right.
The actual truth, whether it matches the decision or not, is not what the jury is there to decide.
And it's certainly not for people who were neither present at the incident or at the trial to judge.

The riots are just stupid.
When there are people in other parts of the world protesting and rioting over real, actual problems, these idiots are destroying things for no reason.

This is exactly the problem. Techdirt does a good job explaining what is so stupid about the hearing.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Those riots across the US
I just want to add a little something on behalf of law enforcement personnel everywhere. I've been in situations where you're dealing with a populace that is generally hostile and potentially dangerous to you. In such cases, behavioral cues are huge, but there's also plain bald statistics that people like to dismiss if they happen to have any racial connotations.
Not sure exactly what you're advocating for, but the acceptance of racial profiling is the complete opposite of what is needed here. Racial profiling is a direct cause of these riots and should be condemned, not justified. The problem is law enforcement (along with the rest of the general population) being conditioned to treat blacks like criminals.

 

Offline Beskargam

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Re: Those riots across the US
I'd like to see national standards for police training and practices. In addition is it possible to reduce the escalation of a conflict, say instead of going for the gun, use a stun gun or a I-can't-remember-the-name-of-the-pole-thing-used-in-martial-arts while still maintaining a reasonable level of safety for the officer in question? I believe being a police officer is not just another job, and that taking on that duty entails more risk than what is the norm, and that an officer must be willing to take risks to his/her own personal safety to do the job. Rather than focus on the safety of the officer at all costs.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Those riots across the US
Not sure exactly what you're advocating for, but the acceptance of racial profiling is the complete opposite of what is needed here. Racial profiling is a direct cause of these riots and should be condemned, not justified. The problem is law enforcement (along with the rest of the general population) being conditioned to treat blacks like criminals.

Oh please. The definition of racism these days has been blurred and diluted to the point where it can be (mis)applied to virtually anything. Allow me to clarify things for you.

Statistics - both impersonal (what we read about / see on the news / hear from other people) and personal (what we ourselves have experienced) -  guide behavior in all living things. For example, domestic cats statistically have positive interaction with humans, and thus are typically not afraid of us. Garbage cats statistically have negative interactions with humans, leading to their being wary and fearful of us.

For humans, negative experience is called "learning the hard way". Touch a fire -> get burned -> obtain valuable survival behavior that fire damages us and shouldn't be touched. We're not being racist against fires (let's ignore the issue that fires don't have a "race" to begin with). We're acting out of preservation of our own lives based on past experiences - each time we touched that fire in the past, we got burnt, so based on statistics, it'll probably happen every time we do so in the future - and it's likely that it will happen no matter which fire we touch.

There is a word for behavior that ignores statistics such as past experiences and blindly attempts again and again to touch fires, thinking that perhaps this time it will go differently even though nothing else has changed: insanity.

NSFW (language):

Now, there's a fine line between allowing such statistics and experiences - whether they are based on a person's race, age, behavior, clothing, or whatever - to inform our behavior in potentially dangerous situations, versus discriminating against a person with no cause to do so.

Let me give you an example from my actual, daily life. I live in Jerusalem. We have neighborhoods that are predominantly Arab, Jewish, etc. Based on statistics, I'm not going to wander through the Arab neighborhoods willy-nilly. Statistically, Arabs have been more prone to violence than other ethnic groups in Jerusalem (especially recently). So my avoidance of those areas of the city is not out of racism, but the desire to preserve my life and well-being. Now, all else being equal (quality, etc), I have no problem whatsoever with buying from Arab vendors vs Jewish vendors in the market across the street from my office. To date, there has been no reason for such behavior - no spates of poisonings or anything like that. So to discriminate against Arab market vendors just because they're Arab would be racism.

Do you see the difference here? Racism is discriminating against someone for no other reason than their race. Learning from past experiences isn't racism - it's sanity. When those past experiences show that the people engaging in negative behavior all wear pink poodle fur hats? Well, maybe the pink poodle fur hats are mind controlling the people to do bad things, and maybe not, but either way - you'd do best to steer clear of pink poodle hat wearers if you want to avoid their negative behavior.

Also, I'll tack this on here even though it should probably be integrated into my post somehow, but I only just thought of it. That learning from statistics and past behavior thing actually has two factors, not just one. I mentioned one factor, the "who", but the other factor is the situation itself. Example: Pink Poodle Hat person walking down the sidewalk towards me, brandishing a butcher knife? I'd be pretty wary. Change the situation though, and have Pink Poodle Hat standing in his meat stall at the market brandishing a butcher knife? Significantly less threatening.
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Those riots across the US
And now for a blatant case of prosecutorial misconduct.

Quote
Before Wilson testified to the grand jury on September 16, prosecutors gave grand jurors an outdated statute that said police officers can shoot a suspect that's simply fleeing. This statute was deemed unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court in 1985; the court ruled that a fleeing suspect must, at least in a police officer's reasonable view, pose a dangerous threat to someone or have committed a violent felony to justify a shooting.

Prosecutors, who had full control of the evidence presented to the grand jury, took more than two months to correct their mistake, O'Donnell said. The prosecutors on November 21 — just three days before the grand jury reached a decision — gave the correct standards to the grand jury. But as O'Donnell explained, the prosecutors didn't specify what exactly was wrong with the outdated statute — and they didn't even clearly say, after they were asked, to the grand jurors that Supreme Court rulings do indeed override Missouri law.
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Offline Hellzed

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Re: Those riots across the US
Not sure exactly what you're advocating for, but the acceptance of racial profiling is the complete opposite of what is needed here. Racial profiling is a direct cause of these riots and should be condemned, not justified. The problem is law enforcement (along with the rest of the general population) being conditioned to treat blacks like criminals.

Now, there's a fine line between allowing such statistics and experiences - whether they are based on a person's race, age, behavior, clothing, or whatever - to inform our behavior in potentially dangerous situations, versus discriminating against a person with no cause to do so.

The big problem with your reasoning is that the criteria you are likely to pick to build statistics (or recollections of your past personal experiences) are social constructs, not physical laws.
You know that fire burns because it's hot and your skin cells can't handle it.
You know that Black and Arab people are dangerous because ... ?

If you accept racial profiling under the assumption that it will help law enforcement, you are willingly ignoring causality, and thus taking the risk of hurting a lot of innocent people who are part of the group(s) you have selected as your main target(s). (and I'm not even bringing up Human Rights...)
Strange thing: in many places around the world, and especially in the USA, there is a huge bias towards considering "race" to be the most relevant.

There is also a strong link between police discrimination and other types of discrimination : who would want to hire, or just hang out with someone who is part of a group known to be targeted by the police forces ? A sane person wouldn't want to be associated with the "wrong crowd". A sane person wouldn't want to live in a neighbourhood where the main access point happens to be a police checkpoint because a majority of the people living there have the "wrong" skin colour.
Whether you like it or not, racial profiling is a huge incentive for everyone (business owners, landlords, everyone else...) to build a more segregated society, and the only reason to support that would be... well... plain, old, racism.
So yes, supporting racial profiling makes you a racist, sorry for that.

 

Offline Kopachris

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Re: Those riots across the US
Tear gas is flammable.

Tear gas is slightly flammable; it must be heated first, with a flash point >200°F.  The organic solvent used to aerosolize it may be flammable; the solvent used in the Waco Siege, dichloromethane, has similar flammability to the tear gas itself.  The propellant may be flammable; the ignition source would need to be near the nozzle.

or a I-can't-remember-the-name-of-the-pole-thing-used-in-martial-arts

A baton/nightstick?
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