Author Topic: Hail Satan!  (Read 20999 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Satan is Shivans.

Discuss.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline karajorma

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If you presume the existence of God, and he is not the good guy in your evaluation, then who exactly is?

That is such a loaded question.

You assume that there is a good guy. There are a fairly large number of plausible scenarios that could result in an impostor impersonating a real creator (who simply doesn't care or got replaced by an impostor). Or you could have an impostor taking the credit for creation when there wasn't ever any such thing. You wouldn't even need to be divine or supernatural to get away with it. In fact you could probably get away with it with modern technology if you had access to the kind of technologically primitive people around 2-3 thousand years ago.

Hell, there's no real logical reason to suppose that even if there was a some such "God" that he's still around now. He could have bull**** a whole bunch of people into thinking he's great and had no idea that people would still be telling stories about thousands of years later on cultural inertia.

If you're still confused, I'd suggest watching more Stargate.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline An4ximandros

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Remember Yahweh started as a Semitic warrior-god; Ahura Mazda supplanted a pantheon; Odin replaced Tyr as the "overgod" among the Norse, etc. Nothing is fixed.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Wouldn't it depend in whether you are looking at Satans direct or indirect actions that lead to death? You rarely hear about him smiting people, but you can make the case that by tempting (influencing) individuals to do sin (evil) to say kill, the body count could be very high.
So why must there be a good guy in the first place?  Seems to me it's just a choice between two douchebags.  Only difference is that one of them excuses his actions by claiming he's the only objective "good", so no matter what he does, it's good, and if you think differently, you're wrong.

 

Offline Bobboau

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or how about humanity is the good guy? I mean without people the word "good" and "bad" sort of looses it's meaning
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Offline Dragon

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"Humanity"? Remember, both Hitler and Gandhi were humans. It's too general of a term to apply to en entire species. It's true, though, that there's no other way to define "good" and "bad" than through a sentient species of your choice (humanity being the most useful one to us).
You assume that there is a good guy. There are a fairly large number of plausible scenarios that could result in an impostor impersonating a real creator (who simply doesn't care or got replaced by an impostor). Or you could have an impostor taking the credit for creation when there wasn't ever any such thing. You wouldn't even need to be divine or supernatural to get away with it. In fact you could probably get away with it with modern technology if you had access to the kind of technologically primitive people around 2-3 thousand years ago.
Why would you need an "impostor" at all? There's no reason for a creator entity to be good. Indeed, there is no reason for it to be even capable of being interpreted in terms of human morality. It's likely mindless, by human standards, or so much beyond our comprehension that we wouldn't be able to tell. That being would be working on massive spacetime scales, on which we are an insignificant thermodynamic fluctuation. It would operate by mathematics so alien that even our brightest minds wouldn't truly be able to understand them, though they might be able to work with them anyway (sort of how I manage to get anything done on the mathematical analysis course :)). We're talking about a being to which 4-dimensional tensor algebra would be what being able to count is for a human. To create a world like ours, with all its intricacies, would take a mind completely beyond what is possible to achieve via evolution.

Indeed, the way I see it, the notion of an omnipotent cosmic being in any way interested in humans is far fetched. If there's God, he's likely a local phenomenon (just like we are), and not the creator of the universe. He could be a creator of life, but that's all (here's a thought: if God is a local phenomenon, perhaps every planet has one. Ours is just more competent than, say, Venusian one and managed to make life that actually lasted). Also, he'd likely still be beyond our comprehension, but much less so than any that would be a global (universal-level) phenomenon. Evolution would shape the human species to conform with God's behavior, but it would not give us any way to actually understand the reasons for it. "Good" would merely be what makes God not to harm us, while "bad" would be something that makes him do so. We'd take it as something unshakable laws of universe, but they could very well results from completely meaningless (but consistent) behavior patterns of God.

Imagine rabbits learning how to run from cars. Those that do it right, live, those that don't, die. Over time, only the ones that do remain, and they will always run from cars the same way, and cross the road when they're least likely to be ran over. Yet, they never grasp the concept of a "rush hour" or even why cars move down the road, or why they exist, for that matter. It's bad to cross the road in the morning or evening, it's good to do so late at night. Our grasp of "good" and "bad" might work the same way, and come from something similar. God does not even have to realize we exist.

Yeah, I've been reading up on Lovecraft. Why do you ask? :)

 

Offline karajorma

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Why would you need an "impostor" at all? There's no reason for a creator entity to be good.

Cause I was referring to the actual Christian God as described in the bible rather than an arbitrary creator deity. While I don't necessarily disagree with anything else you've said, if we're saying that the God of the bible really does exist he couldn't be the deity you're referring to as he obviously does care about meddling with the affairs of humans.

I was giving examples as if the bible was true, but only in the same way that a politicians speech is true.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Christian God is anything but good. Id rather there be no God than the highest being in the universe being so immoral.

And the same applies to intelligent aliens. I hope we are alone and life is simply rare, its the only benign resolution to the Fermi paradox.
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Offline Dragon

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I was giving examples as if the bible was true, but only in the same way that a politicians speech is true.
Indeed. My reasoning only assumed that there exists at least one deity. However, given who wrote it, I find that Bible being literal truth is an extremely unlikely outcome under any set of assumptions. It was written by humans a few thousand years ago, not by any sort of divine being. As such, it's bound to be a human interpretation of God's "words", nothing more. A dead giveaway would be it being in a human language. There's no more reason for God to speak Hebrew any more than it is for him to speak any other language, and if he doesn't speak a language, just beams words into the receiver, they're subject to (mis)interpretation by his mind (as with Genesis. The author wrote "7 days" because "5 billion years" were just too much for him to fathom). It would be a strange (unlikely, I would say) world where a bunch of shepherds 5000 years ago had a better idea about the shape of the world than modern scholars (or modern shepherds, for that matter. :) ). While it's conceivable that we don't really know more than they did, it'd be odd to assume they knew more.
And the same applies to intelligent aliens. I hope we are alone and life is simply rare, its the only benign resolution to the Fermi paradox.
I don't think we have to worry about aliens. They're unlikely to be like anything we know from Earth, anyway. Almost certainly beyond our comprehension as well, and we would be likewise beyond them. As far as I'm concerned, Stanislaw Lem nailed it in his later books. The Ocean from Solaris, the signal from His Master's Voice, things like that. We would likely know that the alien is alive, but their intelligence might be really hard to work out, contact (with mutual understanding) will be hard to impossible. If we're lucky, we'll learn to exchange mathematical theorems with them, since some things (like the famous sequence of primes) are universal, and if you manage to work out enough basics, you can build entire mathematics on them.

I'd say, there isn't much to worry about either way. Given the distances involved, they're likely to be mostly harmless. Almost certainly, they'll be a fascinating subject to research, but

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Good grief people! By standing up for Satanism like that, you're providing a more crushing refutation of liberalism than anything I could come up with!
:jaw:
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move." - Captain America

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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This famous prime sequence list, what happens if the aliens highest intellect is no greater than Adrian stone who I went to school with? He was very adept at football. But he was a ****ing idiot :yes:
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline SypheDMar

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Good grief people! By standing up for Satanism like that, you're providing a more crushing refutation of liberalism than anything I could come up with!
:jaw:
Just to be sure, Satanism in this sense is personal freedom. Nobody is really worshipping Satan.

 

Offline Scotty

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Good grief people! By standing up for Satanism like that, you're providing a more crushing refutation of liberalism than anything I could come up with!
:jaw:

Yes, standing up for the right to believe in and worship who and what you want to is such a horrendous thing.  I can't imagine founding a country based on that.

 

Offline Mars

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Particularly when a central point is Satan could easily be seen as being more ethical and "good" than God in the Christian text.

How dare anyone support the worship of the supernatural guy not known for smiting people in the Bible!

 

Offline Goober5000

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Hell, there's no real logical reason to suppose that even if there was a some such "God" that he's still around now. He could have bull**** a whole bunch of people into thinking he's great and had no idea that people would still be telling stories about thousands of years later on cultural inertia.

Except that the Bible was written over the course of a couple thousand years.  If God stuck around for that long he could easily have stuck around for another few thousand more.

Especially when he made such a big deal about coming back.


Particularly when a central point is Satan could easily be seen as being more ethical and "good" than God in the Christian text.

By what objective standard?

 

Offline Aesaar

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By what objective standard?
Why is one necessary?

 

Offline Scotty

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Particularly when a central point is Satan could easily be seen as being more ethical and "good" than God in the Christian text.

By what objective standard?

I'll go one better, and nominate the entire book of Job as a prime example of Satan > God in terms of objective morality.

 

Offline Goober5000

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By what objective standard?

Why is one necessary?

Judging entity A as more or less ethical and good than entity B requires an objective standard against which to judge.  Otherwise the judgement is meaningless.

  

Offline Bobboau

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Good grief people! By standing up for Satanism like that, you're providing a more crushing refutation of liberalism than anything I could come up with!
How so?
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Aesaar

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By what objective standard?

Why is one necessary?

Judging entity A as more or less ethical and good than entity B requires an objective standard against which to judge.  Otherwise the judgement is meaningless.
Arguing that God provides an objective moral standard requires you to actually know what moral standard God "promotes".  I really hope you're not going to argue that the Bible provides that.

And if not the Bible, then what?  Your own interpretation of it?  Your personal relationship with God?  That's all pretty subjective.

No, I'm a thinking person and am perfectly capable of making moral judgments based on my own sense of morality.  I don't need a magic sky daddy to tell me what's right and wrong.  I can figure it out for myself, and I think everyone else can as well.