[InsaneBaron]

Aesaar, Hitchens isn't really worth taking seriously as a debater. All he does is rant. By citing him, you characterize yourself that way.

God gave us a choice to be sick or well, and we decided to be morons and chose to be sick, at which point God got himself nailed to a cross to give us a second chance to be well.

[Edhotmetal]

sin and sickness entered the world

entered from where?

Adam and Eve cursed themselves by eating the fruit. God cursed the world by his mercy so that they could live in it. Essentially ruining his creation so that the humans who cursed themeselves could have a second chance.
EDIT:
Just to clarify. The sin did not come from God. His curse on the world consisted of allowing Satan to bring sin into the world.

[Mr. Vega]

Yeah.  I totally choose to be attracted to guys.  That's God's honest truth.  No way it's not a choice, not a one.

We choose what we do, not necessarily what we desire.

But look, that's not what I came back to this thread for. I've made it clear I don't condemn you any more than I condemn myself. That said, I'm done.

Aessar, try quoting someone more serious than Hitchens.

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" -Socrates

He serious enough for you?

[Aesaar]

Aesaar, Hitchens isn't really worth taking seriously as a debater. All he does is rant. By citing him, you characterize yourself that way.

God gave us a choice to be sick or well, and we decided to be morons and chose to be sick, at which point God got himself nailed to a cross to give us a second chance to be well.

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?  And if God didn't want us to be gay, why did he create our biology in such a way that some people would be born that way?  Seems like a pretty simple fix for a god that allegedly created the whole universe.

Hitchens ranted, and in those rants, he frequently made excellent points.  If your only response to those points is an ad hominem attack, that's your problem more than mine.

[Edhotmetal]

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" -Socrates

He serious enough for you?

God loves us whether or not we obey him. That's why we all aren't dead yet.

 

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

[Aesaar]

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

It wasn't his choice.  People are born gay or straight.  At no point is there a conscious or unconscious decision to prefer men or women.  This isn't in doubt.  It's not something you can argue against.  It's simple fact. 

God made him that way, and will sentence him to eternal torture if he doesn't resist the urge God programmed into him.

[Mr. Vega]

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

It wasn't his choice.  People are born gay or straight.  At no point is there a conscious or unconscious decision to prefer men or women.  This isn't in doubt.  It's not something you can argue against.  It's simple fact. 

God made him that way, and will sentence him to eternal torture if he doesn't resist the urge God programmed into him.

Like I said, you're better off claiming Demiurge is the God of the Old Testament.

[Edhotmetal]

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

It wasn't his choice.  People are born gay or straight.  At no point is there a conscious or unconscious decision to prefer men or women.  This isn't in doubt.  It's not something you can argue against.  It's simple fact. 

God made him that way, and will sentence him to eternal torture if he doesn't resist the urge God programmed into him.

Didn't I just say that God didn't put sin in the world? Therefore God did not program him to be gay. Satan did that. God gave his son to help people change. We have a choice to accept that help or not. I did not say scotty chose to be gay.

[Mr. Vega]

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

It wasn't his choice.  People are born gay or straight.  At no point is there a conscious or unconscious decision to prefer men or women.  This isn't in doubt.  It's not something you can argue against.  It's simple fact. 

God made him that way, and will sentence him to eternal torture if he doesn't resist the urge God programmed into him.

Didn't I just say that God didn't put sin in the world? Therefore God did not program him to be gay. Satan did that. God gave his son to help people change. We have a choice to accept that help or not. I did not say scotty chose to be gay.

And God lets Satan do this because......?

[Edhotmetal]

And God lets Satan do this because......?

 Please refer to my previous post

sin and sickness entered the world

entered from where?

Adam and Eve cursed themselves by eating the fruit. God cursed the world by his mercy so that they could live in it. Essentially ruining his creation so that the humans who cursed themeselves could have a second chance.
EDIT:
Just to clarify. The sin did not come from God. His curse on the world consisted of allowing Satan to bring sin into the world.

[Aesaar]

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

It wasn't his choice.  People are born gay or straight.  At no point is there a conscious or unconscious decision to prefer men or women.  This isn't in doubt.  It's not something you can argue against.  It's simple fact. 

God made him that way, and will sentence him to eternal torture if he doesn't resist the urge God programmed into him.

Didn't I just say that God didn't put sin in the world? Therefore God did not program him to be gay. Satan did that. God gave his son to help people change. We have a choice to accept that help or not. I did not say scotty chose to be gay.

So, God lets Satan change the basic biological makeup of a person so that they are unable to not sin, and it's somehow that person's fault for sinning like their biology tells them to do, so they deserve eternal torture.  It's not their choice.  They can't help it, but that doesn't matter to God.  Punish them anyway.

I'm not going to dress this up: This is like blaming a rape victim for being raped.  I mean, the Bible does that a lot too, but still.  A person was forced into something by a third party, and you still blame them for it.  What's worse, God has the power to undo it, and chooses not to.  "I could make you better, but instead, I'm going to torture you for eternity for something you had no control over."

Yeah, that's much, much better.

BTW, you're giving Satan a lot of power over creation.  I was under the impression he was limited to tempting mortals to sin, not directly influencing God's creation.

And you'd think God might take a little responsibility, given that Satan was his ****up, not humanity's.

[Bobboau]

The sin did not come from God. His curse on the world consisted of allowing Satan to bring sin into the world.

and how is it that Satan was able to make sin? this is before the fall of man remember, everything was still perfect.
also does Satan have free will?

[Edhotmetal]

At what point did Scotty choose to be gay?

Whether or not he chose to be gay doesn't matter. He has a choice to be different. I won't judge him if he chooses to stay the way he is. I respect his choice even if I don't agree.

It wasn't his choice.  People are born gay or straight.  At no point is there a conscious or unconscious decision to prefer men or women.  This isn't in doubt.  It's not something you can argue against.  It's simple fact. 

God made him that way, and will sentence him to eternal torture if he doesn't resist the urge God programmed into him.

Didn't I just say that God didn't put sin in the world? Therefore God did not program him to be gay. Satan did that. God gave his son to help people change. We have a choice to accept that help or not. I did not say scotty chose to be gay.

So, God lets Satan change the basic biological makeup of a person so that they are unable to not sin, and it's somehow that person's fault for sinning like their biology tells them to do, so they deserve eternal torture.  It's not their choice.  They can't help it, but that doesn't matter to God.  Punish them anyway.

I'm not going to dress this up: This is like blaming a rape victim for being raped.  I mean, the Bible does that a lot too, but still.  A person was forced into something by a third party, and you still blame them for it.  What's worse, God has the power to undo it, and chooses not to.  "I could make you better, but instead, I'm going to torture you for eternity for something you had no control over."

Yeah, that's much, much better.

BTW, you're giving Satan a lot of power over creation.  I was under the impression he was limited to tempting mortals to sin, not directly influencing God's creation.

And you'd think God might take a little responsibility, given that Satan was his ****up, not humanity's.

I have said already that because God loves you more than you can imagine, He provided his Son as a way of salvation from Satan's influence. We have a choice to accept that salvation or not. Would you give up your son for someone who didn't listen to a thing you said?
Satan was not God's fault. Satan chose rebel and got sent to hell.
Give me a verse that blames a rape victim for being raped and I take it all back.

The sin did not come from God. His curse on the world consisted of allowing Satan to bring sin into the world.

and how is it that Satan was able to make sin? this is before the fall of man remember, everything was still perfect.
also does Satan have free will?

Sin is disobeying God's design. Satan was designed to be an Angel serving God.  Sin was around before Satan rebelled. Satan simply chose to sin. Satan has free will just like the angels that joined him.

[karajorma]

Here's a verse for you

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death."
If a woman is raped in the country, then only the man shall die (since there was no one to hear her if she cried out.) Deuteronomy 22:23-25

[Bobboau]

ok, so sin was around before the fall of man and before the fall of lucifer? where did it come from?

I often hear that the reason god no longer reveals himself to humanity is because it would violate our free will, do you prescribe to that and if so how do you recon that with the fact that satan who has intimate experience of gods presence chose to rebel?

[Edhotmetal]

Karajorma, what version is that?
The King James Version says,
"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you"
Deuteronomy 22:23-34
The KJV says that if she sleeps with him willingly without crying out, then she should be stoned

[Aesaar]

I have said already that because God loves you more than you can imagine, He provided his Son as a way of salvation from Satan's influence. We have a choice to accept that salvation or not.
Satan was not God's fault. Satan chose rebel and got sent to hell.
Give me a verse that blames a rape victim for being raped and I take it all back.

Yeah, God loves you so much that rather than fix you like he can because he's all-powerful (or admit you're not broken), he'll torture you for eternity for being who you are.  So loving.

Unless salvation through Jesus can suddenly make a gay person straight?

I wonder if I should get into how roundabout a solution the whole human sacrifice thing is?

BTW:

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

"If no one heard her scream, she must have wanted it, so kill her."  You may excuse this however you like, but this is the classic victim-blaming excuse, and you hear it all the ****ing time.

The KJV says that if she sleeps with him willingly without crying out, then she should be stoned

No, it says that if no one hears her scream, she must have wanted it.

Sin is disobeying God's design. Satan was designed to be an Angel serving God.  Sin was around before Satan rebelled. Satan simply chose to sin. Satan has free will just like the angels that joined him.

Ok, so why didn't God stop him before humanity's original sin?  After all:

Adam and Eve cursed themselves by eating the fruit. God cursed the world by his mercy so that they could live in it. Essentially ruining his creation so that the humans who cursed themeselves could have a second chance.

Unless we forget the whole "Satan took the form of a snake and tempted Eve into eating the fruit" thing, of course.

[Edhotmetal]

ok, so sin was around before the fall of man and before the fall of lucifer? where did it come from?

I often hear that the reason god no longer reveals himself to humanity is because it would violate our free will, do you prescribe to that and if so how do you recon that with the fact that satan who has intimate experience of gods presence chose to rebel?

Sin is not really a "thing" that exists. It's just not obeying what God has designed you to do. It's hard for me to understand as well. If you choose to have an intimate relationship with God, then he will reveal himself to you through prayer, reading the word, or in dreams. He won't necessarily come to you suddenly or dramatically. He might visit you through your conscience. He still visits people today.
Satan rebelled because he thought he was powerful enough to challenge God. I don't know where he got that notion. It's like a child rebelling against his parents even though he probably knows that he will get caught. I can't fully reason why anyone does what they do.

[Aesaar]

Satan rebelled because he thought he was powerful enough to challenge God. I don't know where he got that notion. It's like a child rebelling against his parents even though he probably knows that he will get caught. I can't fully reason why anyone does what they do.

Well, given that he can apparently make people gay and God can't fix them...

And he needs a whole human sacrifice to forgive, which is something I'm perfectly capable of doing without any sort of blood sacrifice at all...

It says a lot about either God's power, intelligence, or morality.

[Edhotmetal]

I have said already that because God loves you more than you can imagine, He provided his Son as a way of salvation from Satan's influence. We have a choice to accept that salvation or not.
Satan was not God's fault. Satan chose rebel and got sent to hell.
Give me a verse that blames a rape victim for being raped and I take it all back.

Yeah, God loves you so much that rather than fix you like he can because he's all-powerful (or admit you're not broken), he'll torture you for eternity for being who you are.  So loving.

Unless salvation through Jesus can suddenly make a gay person straight?

I wonder if I should get into how roundabout a solution the whole human sacrifice thing is?

BTW:

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

"If no one heard her scream, she must have wanted it, so kill her."  You may excuse this however you like, but this is the classic victim-blaming excuse, and you hear it all the ****ing time.

The KJV says that if she sleeps with him willingly without crying out, then she should be stoned

No, it says that if no one hears her scream, she must have wanted it.

Sin is disobeying God's design. Satan was designed to be an Angel serving God.  Sin was around before Satan rebelled. Satan simply chose to sin. Satan has free will just like the angels that joined him.

Ok, so why didn't God stop him before humanity's original sin?  After all:

Adam and Eve cursed themselves by eating the fruit. God cursed the world by his mercy so that they could live in it. Essentially ruining his creation so that the humans who cursed themeselves could have a second chance.

Unless we forget the whole "Satan took the form of a snake and tempted Eve into eating the fruit" thing, of course.

If God fixed you without your consent, he would be violating your free-will. You have to choose to accept Jesus for God to fix you. I don't know why he gave us free-will. Some things we can't understand. And yes, salvation through Jesus can make someone straight. Look it up.

About the woman sleeping with the man, Jesus forgave the woman who was caught committing adultery even though the law said she must be stoned. We must always consult God before making decisions especially before stoning somebody. He knows everything. Back then, cities were tiny with tiny houses. If she screamed, someone would have heard her.

God could not have prevented Satan from rebelling because then He would have violated Satan's free will.

Remember, Satan "tempted" Eve to take the fruit. He did not force her. She knew it was wrong to take the fruit and she decided to take it anyway. It was also Adam's fault because he wasn't around to help her decide. Two heads are better than one. I'm not saying that Adam would have been able to resist any better than Eve but together, they probably would have. That's an example of God's design for marriage btw.
You are not just and without sin. Neither am I. Our forgiveness towards others does not erase their sin because someone needs to pay for that sin. Someone needs to pay because God is just and cannot tolerate sin. In the old times, animals were killed to pay for sin. Now, Jesus paid for our sin. We live because Jesus died and paid for our sin. Jesus rose again and is our "lawyer" so to speak. If we don't accept what Jesus did for us, then we have to pay anyway. It's like someone offering to pay for your monetary debt with the IRS. If you don't accept you have to pay up.

I have made my case and I'm going to sleep now. Good night and God bless.