[Scotty]

Because being actually raped isn't funny and nor should it ever be made out to be so, it's not remotely funny.

I hope you do realise the joke doesn't contain any rape whatsoever.

If you are going to laugh at the act of rape then laugh at the perpetrator for being so sexually inept that he/she has to force themselves onto someone in order to get laid, by all means imply their sexual equipment is not up to the job without the threat of violence, but I'll be honest, anyone who thinks it is ok to laugh at the victim of a rape seriously needs to get themselves down to some protected shelters and safe houses to explain to some of the women living there just how hilarious it is.

Two things. First, I'm pretty sure a talented comedian could create a joke outside your rules in a heartbeat. I'm not one though. Second, the joke I had didn't "laugh at the victim of a rape". There wasn't even a rape. It plays with the "rape joke" trope, but it never actually goes there. I'm beggining to think you didn't even read it properly.

In a way, this is kind of the point.  I mentioned it earlier, but while no physical rape occurs, the set up of the joke, the word choice, and the tone all point to an incident of metaphorical rape.  It's the act of achieving sexual gratification at the expense of the 'victim's' sense of safety and security in forcible manner.  It does not matter that there is not penis-in-vagina rape going on, any more than it matters that Charles Manson didn't pull the trigger.

Yes, that's an extreme analogy, but it fits and came immediately to mind.

EDIT: This all isn't even to say that humor can't be edgy or outrageous or uncomfortable.  It's just to say that I will never, ever support or enjoy a rape joke, or a joke that presents itself in the same tone and general content.

[Lorric]

Missed a couple posts...

Well, part of the reason that I chose that particular clip is because a UK satire show picked up on it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCTrDN9Lsfo

I think it does a good job of pointing and laughing without being too judgmental, though the language may be NSFW for some.

Pretty funny.

Radical "feminists". But also hopefully to open up some eyes.

Considering that I have never seen a feminist say something even remotely like the seriously awfull stuff you just posted, I think you just scored a few points for feminism.

I presume you're going back to the joke posted by me.

I'm going to try one more time to make this make sense to you.

And let's get a sense of perspective here, no one's getting actually raped in either mine or Luis' joke. No one is being touched.

Back to my joke, this is about people who would get up in arms about the man being presented with the cheque. I'm sure there'd be no argument if the woman was. Because it's only sexist if it's the man, right? Remember this is at the expense of radical feminists, not reasonable everyday feminists. The kind of people who pump out lines like "all men are rapists" and think all men want to subjugate women and dominate them and think the only places for women are the kitchen, the bedroom, and pumping out children.

This is an exaggerated vision of the World through these people's eyes. I don't think even the worst radical "feminists" of the type I describe view the World literally as the joke portrays, but it's close enough for the connection to resonate with me and make me find it amusing.

So the male is portrayed as the dominant and sexually aroused enforcer of the "patriarchy", and the woman meanwhile is in the place you might think women would be if the fuss these radical "feminists" make was actually relatable to the impact incidents like these have on women. Of course, like the man, her distress and vulnerability is over-exaggerated.

This is the connection I see. To people who see benign incidents as expressions of male dominance and oppression, and by the way they talk as if females are the most unbelievably delicate things.

If you're not familiar in any way with the people in question, it may be impossible to see the connection and thus the part of this that is funny. And with that gone, I can see how this would look bad, because the necessary ingredient to find the joke funny is not there. For me I got it immediately, I didn't have to exercise any mental muscle to figure it out. It jumped right out at me, and I've never seen a joke like this before and I thought it most amusing and inventive.

6 posts since I wrote this!

[Scotty]

And let's get a sense of perspective here, no one's getting actually raped in either mine or Luis' joke. No one is being touched.

In case you'd forgotten (or were unaware, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), the primary trauma of rape is not physical.

[Luis Dias]

In a way, this is kind of the point.  I mentioned it earlier, but while no physical rape occurs, the set up of the joke, the word choice, and the tone all point to an incident of metaphorical rape.  It's the act of achieving sexual gratification at the expense of the 'victim's' sense of safety and security in forcible manner.  It does not matter that there is not penis-in-vagina rape going on, any more than it matters that Charles Manson didn't pull the trigger.

Yes, that's an extreme analogy, but it fits and came immediately to mind.

The joke is at the expense of the contrast between what really happens and the paranoid version of what "happened". The joke is not the rape. The joke is that the rape didn't happen.

EDIT: This all isn't even to say that humor can't be edgy or outrageous or uncomfortable.  It's just to say that I will never, ever support or enjoy a rape joke, or a joke that presents itself in the same tone and general content.

Well, your loss!

[Scotty]

You get no such benefit of the doubt.   Rape isn't a physical thing.  At least, not entirely.  Or even mostly.  That's why I dislike the joke so much.  I think you're getting too hung up on the lack of the physical to realize that the mental trauma is by far the greater of the pair.

[Lorric]

I mentioned it earlier, but while no physical rape occurs, the set up of the joke, the word choice, and the tone all point to an incident of metaphorical rape.  It's the act of achieving sexual gratification at the expense of the 'victim's' sense of safety and security in forcible manner.  It does not matter that there is not penis-in-vagina rape going on

I want to focus on this bit, but I read your whole post and it does help me to look at it through your eyes.

But that's not rape. Maybe it's brought it to mind for you, but it's not rape. It's what you said it is above:

It's the act of achieving sexual gratification at the expense of the 'victim's' sense of safety and security in forcible manner.

At worst.

And let's keep in mind the actions in question aren't actually going to induce the effects described. Even the joke-female isn't going to think she is being raped. Oppressed and humiliated but not raped. Even the joke-males aren't portrayed as going to actually go in and do anything sexual to the joke-female.

I still think that side of the joke is just a small piece. It's just a part of the exaggerated oppression. It's about the exaggerated oppression. You take it out and have the men just laughing and oppressing and it still works.

[Grizzly]

Even the joke-female isn't going to think she is being raped.

Lorric, when I put a knife to your troat and press it deep but don't actually cut you deep enough for you to die...

... That's still really ****ed up, and you will sure as hell think I am going to kill you at that moment, even if I whisper "it's just a joke" in your ear.

 "This situation is literally one step away from rape but it's not rape and therefore it's not bad" is not a viable excuse, period.

[Luis Dias]

You get no such benefit of the doubt.   Rape isn't a physical thing.  At least, not entirely.  Or even mostly.  That's why I dislike the joke so much.  I think you're getting too hung up on the lack of the physical to realize that the mental trauma is by far the greater of the pair.

Oh no, I get that. It's why it's uncomfortable. Until I began to realise that the actual events were not matching to the mental description of them. Then I realised that the mental description was entirely lunatic. And then it ends in a phrase that approves both the insane interpretation and reality. I dunno, jokes are precisely funny because they are catching inconsistencies, "bugs", paradoxes, etc., in situations or ideas or whatever (Dennett, 200smth), so they are mostly a very brain-dependent thing. IOW, the joke "clicks" on me, and it's not because I'm a rape-tolerant guy.

[Lorric]

Lorric, when I put a knife to your troat and press it deep but don't actually cut you deep enough for you to die...

... That's still really ****ed up and it is going to leave  you with some really big traumas. "This situation is literally one step away from rape but it's not rape and therefore it's not bad" is not a viable excuse, period.

Aren't you forgetting something? The stuff in question wouldn't cause this devastating impact in the real World. In Luis' joke a man helped a woman having computer trouble. In mine, he paid the bill at a restaurant.

[Hades]

**** u all

[Scotty]

Thank you, Hades.  Enjoy your day off.

[Lorric]

Sarcasm...

[Grizzly]

The stuff in question wouldn't cause this devastating impact in the real World.

In a world where people have been raped for months on end whilst other people thought it was fine because they were dating, this is a really stupid statement. How far are you willing to go to defend a rape joke, seriously...

It's the act of achieving sexual gratification at the expense of the 'victim's' sense of safety and security in forcible manner.

At worst.

That's what rape is all about. It's about eroding the victim's sense of safety and security in a forcible manner. The whole "touching" thing is not the end goal, it's having absolute power and control over someone. This has already been established at the end of the joke.

[Scotty]

Sarcasm...

Irrelevant, inappropriate, inflammatory, non-constructive.

Have I sufficiently justified my moderation to you this time?

[Luis Dias]

@Joshua,

Well if that's the criteria, then nothing's funny. I think it's not wise to place yourself in such corners of "whataboutthechildren" traps. Jokes need not being defended. People already laugh at them every day, clearly they work out just fine. I do think that there are differences of interpretations here that were interesting to dissect though. I am still trying to understand if your gut reaction to it is a fair one or not, although you can guess where I'm leaning to.

[Lorric]

The stuff in question wouldn't cause this devastating impact in the real World.

In a world where people have been raped for months on end whilst other people thought it was fine because they were dating, this is a really stupid statement. How far are you willing to go to defend a rape joke, seriously...

I don't see a correlation.

Perhaps we should stop though. It's not working, is it? We're having a civilised conversation, but we're not really getting anywhere are we.

Can you be assured I do not condone abuse of people, or enjoy seeing people suffer and leave it at that? I like you -Joshua-. I like you more than I like a lot of people on this forum in fact. Yes, I think it best to metaphorically shake hands and stop.

Sarcasm...

Irrelevant, inappropriate, inflammatory, non-constructive.

Have I sufficiently justified my moderation to you this time?

Scotty, I have no issue with your moderation of Hades.

But you talk about sarcasm being bad, yet you don't mind putting the boot in when you ban someone with some sarcasm. You did it with me, remember? Have a nice day? (You weren't the one who did the ban, but you know what I'm talking about, right?)

[Scotty]

It's an issue of degree, frequency, intent, language, and context.  I will not define the boundaries of what combination of each of those criteria is grounds for moderation.

[Grizzly]

Can you be assured I do not condone abuse of people, or enjoy seeing people suffer and leave it at that? I like you -Joshua-. I like you more than I like a lot of people on this forum in fact. Yes, I think it best to metaphorically shake hands and stop.

Dude I have seen what rape has done to people in a very close and personal manner (and considering how common rape still is in our society, I am very much afraid that you will too), and as such this stuff affects me in a bad way. I've been terrorized by people who considered it their privelige to take mine away. I have repeatedly tried to explain to you why this makes me uncomfortable, and instead of a "I am sorry that you feel that way" people tell me that I need to understand the joke tehir way and that my way of understanding it is completey invalid and it's my fault or even my loss for not getting it. Luis said that I needed to toughen up, even. I am utterly astounded by this lack of empathy.

edit; This is going to sound very clichéd, but I am not angry or mad or in disagreement or... I am just really, really dissapointed.

[Lorric]

-Joshua- I'm sorry if the joke hurt you. That's not what jokes are supposed to do. Well, not unless you tell them in a malicious spirit, and that's not what I did. It's not what Luis did either, he was I'm sure trying to find some common ground through humour. In a kind of "well hey, at least we can agree on and be amused by this, right?" way.

I'm not trying to say your way is WRONG either. Just show you there's another way to look at it and that I don't find it humorous for horrible reasons, that's not the objective of the joke.

I don't think it's a cliche either, how you say you feel. I understand that feeling well. Please don't think ill of me.

[Luis Dias]

Sorry if you feel that way, I went out my way to apologize that my joke was offensive to some. I think you are overreacting to most of what I said, and I also was very explicit when I said that my interest was in trying to understand why it was so offensive to some people, not to tell you that your way of understanding was "completely invalid".

If that came across, I didn't meant it, or at least no more than you did by implying that I lack empathy and that my acceptance of the joke is totally invalid. You see, you cannot have it both ways. Either the joke is acceptable for some people and for others it is not (and there is no "valid" interpretations), or debating which interpretation is the valid one is acceptable. I am sorry, but you did not came across as being very understanding of people who find the joke funny, instead went on to try to state the joke was unnaceptable, period, and even went out of your way to report my post. Am I really the intolerant here?