[rance]

I'm just going to start off with a massive spoiler warning, if you don't want the plot spoiled then please do not read this thread!


So, what do you think happens next?
Laporte now has her task from Ken to build up an armada to fight back against the GTVA and potentially the Vishnans, but exactly how will she make this armada? Also, what will happen with the Shivans and Vishnans?

I think a combination of convincing GTVA forces to defect and getting the Vasudens to join the war on the UEFs side are required to defeat the GTVA, because even if they push them back thought the node, the GTVA still has the upper hand in respect to technology, fleet size and capability. To truly remove the threat of the GTVA they would have to be attack at the home front, which I don't think the UEF has the capability of doing, not without help from GTVA defectors and Vasuden forces. Or, potentially the GTVA could collapse on it's own due to internal conflict, since the opinion on the war is split in half, for and against.

I'm likely forgetting a lot of factors and details, but what do you think is going to happen next?

[Cyborg17]

The second to last act of BP:WIH is going to be the last lead-up to the last day(s) of the war, with some very high level "let's attack this place or this ship" operations and/or some leveraging operations (we need to go get the McGuffin or learn the secret plans or use the secret weapon or get the secret supplies, etc.).  Defensive operations will not be as common in this case, I don't think, since Steele is building up.  The last day/last operations will start at the end of act 4, and Steele will recognize the need for his Contingency (Morpheus if I remember right).  After that it all gets fuzzy, but the Elder's contingency Shambalah (again if I remember right) will also be used.    And a lot of people will die.  Then in BP3, all the real stuff will go down with shivans and vishnans and stuff.  It'll be fun.

[rance]

What could be a strong enough weapon or device or whatever the UEF have up their sleeve to stop the GTVA? Blowing up the Knossos portal would just delay them. I think it would have to be something extreme, maybe a device that would destroy Earth? That's the whole reason the GTVA is there, it'd give the UEF a lot of leverage. However it also goes massively against Ubuntu to risk 7 billion people lives that could be saved by surrendering. Maybe some form of Shivans technology or use of Nagari to get the Shivans  or even the Vishnans to attack the GTVA. That could then lead into BP3, where the Shivans / Vishnans or both are then present and presumable fighting in GTVA and or UEF  space for everyone to see.

What would be epic in my opinion (although unlikely due to the way Steele has been conducting the war so far) is the final showdown between GTVA and UEF, with Steele's elite fighting the defensive forces put around Earth, and just as it seems the fight is over, Vishnan forces jump in and destroy both fleets. Then in BP3, we see a GTVA and UEF alliance against the Vishnans, in a similar situation as to how the GTVA was formed due to the Shivans attacking (which I believe was the Shivans intentions according to BP), proving to the Vishnans that Humanity is worthy.

[Soulrheever]

I'd be hugely entertained by an all-out war between the Vishnans and Shivans, in which the UEF and GTVA struggle just to survive the devastation and not be trampled like ants under the feet of a conflict infinitely beyond their capabilities to even comprehend. A little perspective for those who consider themselves powerful, and having their oh-so-important conflict to be shown as nothing more than a gnat's fart in a hurricane.   

[An4ximandros]

Bp3 Will be about the Vasudans and we will play as the Jester. (There was talk of this earlier) So anything about the GTVA - UEF war has to be solved by act five.

[Soulrheever]

I don't recall it being specifically stated as such, so I could be wrong, but the fact that we'll be playing as and focusing on the Vasudans does not necessarily mean that the UEF-GTVA war will be over... The V portion of the GTVA does not exist in a vacuum (except it sort of does), and continues to exist while everything else is still going on.

[rance]

The End of BP3 though will have to resolve the whole Humanity, Shivan, Vishnan conflict. Humanity ascending to a higher form seems like a bit of an odd ending, like the green option in Mass Effect 3; alternately with the Shivans on our side, we could potentially fight back against the Vishnans, but even then what happens after that? Do the Shivans just leave us to progress? Are their other alien races besides the Vishnans and Shivans out there and would they be hostile to us? I think the Vishnans and Shivans are too big to be destroyed, or even beaten in a war (the GTVA never really won against the Shivans), so the final ending would have to end with some sort of peace between Humanity and the Shivan and Vishnan forces, but the Vishnans have already given up on us, but even if they do change their mind, we end up with the 'Humanity Ascends' ending.

[Gee1337]

I got four words and one number!

Babylon 5: Into the Fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tj4qfe9afs

Laporte to me is the equivalent of John Sheridan. Vishnans are the Vorlons and the Shivans are the Shadows! I think that we could potentially see an appearance of the Brahmans as well who would represent Lorien. I think this is certainly one possibility where the "galaxy's guardians" are going to be told to leave the galaxy with the Brahmans, who mediates a meeting with the Vishnans, Shivans and "younger races" represented by the Vasudans and the two human factions.

So.. broken down by Act... I believe that Act 4 will be an arms build up with the weaponary capability of the UEF becoming a lot more effective against the GTVA, whether it be an integration of new beam weapons on UEF chassae (is that the plural?) or whether they go down he route of the weaponary capabilities of the Ancients, from the Ancient-Shivan War. I think the GTVA will take some big losses and by the end of the Act we will begin to see the combined threat of the Vishnans and the Shivans from the alternate perspectives of the UEF and the GTVA.

Act 5, I think, we will see a peace brokered between the UEF and GTVA out of a force of necessity, with the Vasudans mediating. Then the three factions will combine their collective firepower and turn it on the Shivans and Vishnans, which will result in the appearance of the Brahmans and the endgame described at the beginning of this post.

However, I am most likely wrong!

[crizza]

Your plot for act 4 is not going to happen Gee.
We know that step by step the UEF is pushed towards the edge of an abyss.
With force of arms alone they cannot hope to hold the line

[Herra Tohtori]

Vishnans are the Vorlons and the Shivans are the Shadows!

I find it curious you'd assign the roles that way.

[Herra Tohtori]

wrong

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.


In my opinion, the comparison is obvious but pretty shallow. What I found interesting is the assignation of the roles. What's it based on? Initials? Visual appearance? Genre savvy?

If I wanted to compare the roles of Shadows, Shivans, Vishnans and Vasudans, I would seek to answer these questions first. Who was it in Babylon 5 who were willing to declare exterminatus on anything and everything that was offensive to them - including entire planets deemed "contaminated" or influenced by agents of the enemy?

Who is it in BP - and in canon FreeSpace - who generally just use violence as means to their unknown ends, and have been known to commit planetary annihilation on at least two separate occasions?


Also, who in Babylon 5 prefer to act with discretion and subterfuge, using intermediaries and select few associates to further their cause?

Who does the same in Blue Planet?


The comparison, in my opinion, falls apart when you consider that in Babylon 5's thematic, the Shadows were agents of chaos while the Vorlons were preservers of order. The Shadows thought that conflict was the best way for the galaxy to advance, while Vorlons thought peace and order. They were, in short, enemies in the sense that their plans for the galaxy conflicted and they made other species fight for their ideologies. These motives are quite understandable, easily comprehensible by human standards.

But when it comes to Vishnans and Shivans, what are their goals? What is their relationship with each other? What do they seek to accomplish and how? Canon games offer little to no insights to Shivan side of things. Blue Planet only some, regarding both Vishnans and Shivans. But both parties' motives are, at the moment at least, largely occluded to us. How do Shivans and Vishnans regard humans and Vasudans? Shivans certainly don't have any interest in a proxy war. In fact, with the sole exception of Ken and Laporte, all encounters with Shivans have been violent. Vishnans seem more approachable, but we really don't know what they're up to and what their agenda is.

[Gee1337]

@ crizza

Like I said at the end... I am most likely wrong

That said... Laporte finds this all out before it actually happens, and isn't she going to be building this armada to prevent us being taken to the abyss?

@ Herra Tohtori

Yes it is a shallow point, but the similarity for me is there. I assign it like that as the Shivans as we know it from FS2 bring death, destruction and war. The Vishnans do not come across like that in AoA, but come across as a polar opposite to the Shivans as the Vishnans are the preservers... the difference between the stories is the role reversal of the Vishans embedding into earth's political leadership, rather than the Shivans. The comparison is based on the races' behaviours!

Ken can be likened to Morden.
Sam can perhaps be likened to Sinclair

To the latter part of your second post, yes the comparison will fall apart because of the difference in the story, but the thematic is actually still quite similar in terms of these super races being guardians for the galaxy. There is arguably more to it as the Vishnans and Shivans both have a goal of preserving and searching for a race like the Brahmans (if memory serves), but their methodologies is different which is what brings me to draw the parallel between the two stories. I never meant the post as an "exactly the same comparison" but more as a loosely based mechanic to which similarities can be made. Obviously, they are never going to fit exactly! Think of it a bit like Pythagoras theorem... a2+b2=c2... the equation is there, it's just the factors which change!

@ BritishShivans

Obviously the story is different to that of Babylon 5 but the mechanics are very similar and have been repeated in other stories. The mechanic which changes in the story telling is the route which takes us to the endgame. I've only played through WiH the once, but I do intend to revisit it when the "voice acting death march" is complete, so I'm relying on memories about 9 months old. To think that one quote is all I can read from the story is a bit unnecessary to state in the method you did, especially when there are parallels there which Herra can agree with me on when it comes to that part of the mechanic, even if it is shallow or obvious.

At the end of the day, I just want more of the game like everyone else does and to find out exactly what the Shivans and Vishnans are all about. I'm even more curious about the Brahmans truth be told. If I am wrong about the story... again which I probably most definitely am... so be it!

[rance]

The Brahmans seem to be the first race that rise to dominance, or to progress into the higher form of life they want humanity and other races to be, in the galaxy. They also may have created Vishnans and employed (for lack of a better word) the Shivans, as in AoA IIRC the Shivans say they came before the first Brahman.

They seem to be gone now from the way the Vishnans and Shivans talk about them, but their legacy and will lives on in the "Counsel" the Vishnans and Shivans say they have in AoA. I think we'll learn a lot more about them, but I don't think we're ever going to see one.

For them to be greater than the Shivans and the Vishnans, I can't see them just simply having a bigger ship with more lasers; I think they don't exist in a physical form, and may inhabit another dimension. I think they also may have created or discovered Nagari, since IIRC it is produced by a third party.

Whatever the Brahman were, they are the reason this is all happening now, their will dictates the Vishnans actions, and to a lesser extent the Shivans (as in AoA they seem to go against the 'protocol' laid out by the Brahman).

[camelpockets]

The second to last act of BP:WIH is going to be the last lead-up to the last day(s) of the war, with some very high level "let's attack this place or this ship" operations and/or some leveraging operations (we need to go get the McGuffin or learn the secret plans or use the secret weapon or get the secret supplies, etc.).  Defensive operations will not be as common in this case, I don't think, since Steele is building up.  The last day/last operations will start at the end of act 4, and Steele will recognize the need for his Contingency (Morpheus if I remember right).  After that it all gets fuzzy, but the Elder's contingency Shambalah (again if I remember right) will also be used.    And a lot of people will die.  Then in BP3, all the real stuff will go down with shivans and vishnans and stuff.  It'll be fun.

Man I really hope BP3 isn't a thing. Er well I do, but I don't think I'd have the patience to wait that long for it 

[Rheyah]

So I gave it some thought and here's my conclusions.

Shambala is the universal pacification of the entire human species into the Great Psyche by means of a McGuffin.  It has not been in development for 18 months.  It has been in development for years and is the final step of the effective development of the species as directed by the parasitic Ubuntu philosophy.  The Shivans oppose this due to unspecified panuniversal catastrophes which occur the last time this happened - the so called Great Darkness is the remnant of species which reached this level of attainment.

Morpheus is a superweapon designed to annihilate this connection (in subspace) and destroy the ability of the Shivans and Vishnans to operate in our space and possibly further out - probably based on ETAK.  It also probably has long term effects on subspace itself and/or human consciousness.  It is an apocalyptic last chance burn all bridges solution for human survival.  It is also the reason Ken in particular wants the GTVA destroyed.  They have no interest in human survival but they have plenty in protecting themselves against apocalyptic superweapons.

The motivations of the Vishnans are unknown but likely related to entropy.  The Shivans are directed by their own designs and fear.  The only one who understands this is Steele and it will become apparent when we kill him and everything goes to ****.

[Gee1337]

I don't think Steele will die as I think he is fundamentally crucial to the survival of the species. So far, we have only seen the UEF's depiction of Steele, but what about the GTVA's depiction... how do they see him? Do they like him?

Now IIRC... Steele hates losing people, which I personally think makes him likeable, but he is also a master tactician and comprehends "acceptable losses".

The "Edge of the Abyss" to me is the GTVA forcing the UEF into submission, in which the result would be mass destruction on Earth, therefore the GTVA not being able to reap the spoils of war. But Laporte gets the warning and builds the armada and perhaps even manages to recruit some help and tech from the Vasudans. Whereas the armada might still lose against the GTVA tech, the TEV losses would end up being so high which makes the GTVA open up a dialogue with the UEF or vice versa. I do think that the Shivans and Vishnans will appear physically and start shooting stuff with there "big blower upper gun" which will trigger the ceasefire in the war, as if the war continues then the Shivans and/or Vishnans will end up destroying the human race... and if this was to happen then it would be the "abyss" itself!

If Steele dies then I believe that he would become a martyr for the tevs. However, if he survives I do wonder if there will be another martyr involved such as Lopez being given command of the Carthage (if you didn't destroy it in Act 3) and giving the ship one last final rallying hurrah to unite the species against a greater collection of enemies.