[karajorma]

Now I don't know much about e-cigarettes but when I hear that anti-smoking and cancer research charities start slaming your decision to ban them, it's probable that you ****ed up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/09/welsh-e-cigarette-ban-irrational-nanny-statism-alcohol-junk-food

Should we devolve intolerance? There is no clear health justification for the Welsh government’s decision to ban e-cigarettes from public places, offices, factories, pubs and lorries. The decision has been widely criticised by Cancer Research UK, Action on Smoking and Health and numerous anti-smoking organisations. They regard e-cigarettes, overwhelmingly used by smokers trying to break the habit, as the most effective means of doing so.

The Welsh government replies that it wants to “send a message” to children and “create the conditions which enable people to live healthy lives.” For good measure it also wants a register to control tobacco retailers, a ban on smoking in non-enclosed public spaces, an offence of “handing over” e-cigarettes to children and curbs on tattoo parlours and body piercers. It is no surprise that this drastic extension of the nanny state is supported by Wales’s army of health civil servants.

What next? Anyone wandering through central Cardiff after 10 o’clock at night will get a shock. It is not smoking that should concern Wales’s government but drinking and obesity. E-cigarettes are motes in the eye compared to these beams. Yet the devolved government “allows” rampant drunkenness on its streets and rampant abuse of children with fatty foods. When is it going to take on the lobbies that defend those health-devastating poisons?

Studies under way by Public Health England and at UCL suggest that e-cigarettes could have “vast public health benefits”, proving 60% more effective in cutting addiction than other methods. The Welsh government rejects all this on the grounds that “any possibility” that children attracted to e-cigarettes “might be more likely” to take up smoking was good enough to justify a ban. On that basis alcohol consumption in front of children should unquestionably be banned.

In these battles, the obligation on government is to weigh evidence, not capitulate to the zest of bureaucracies everywhere to control (rather than educate) the private or semi-private behaviour of its citizens. Whether or not the ban will make it harder for Welsh smokers to kick the habit remains for research – not ministers – to show. What Wales has done is set a poor example of irrational policy-making, and of devolution as a champion of personal freedom.

[headdie]

E-Cigs use electric elements to vaporize a water, sugar and nicotine (+flavorings) mix for inhalation by the user.  while any addiction is a less than ideal situation, the only health impact is that of nicotine on the user's body rather than nicotine+20 billion toxins which goes along with conventional cigs.

So yer any move to restrict e-cig use has the potential to backfire badly.

[FrikgFeek]

I really don't know that much about E-cigs, the only thing I really know is that in my country it's legal to smoke them in some non-smoker indoor areas as they(supposedly) don't have 2nd hand smoking effects.

As for personal health issues, alcohol seems much worse from my personal experience and some limited research. The amount of people that get killed by overdrinking(or even worse, kill others with drunk driving) is higher than the amount of people that slowly get killed by cigarettes(again, from personal experience and limited research, maybe a large-scale study would show otherwise).

Now I'm not saying we should ban alcohol and drunk driving is already banned anyway, but people ruining their lives and health with unhealthy food, drinks, or substances isn't something that should be regulated by the government as long as it doesn't get so out of hand that the economy suffers. It's their choice, and it's especially stupid to start banning the LESS dangerous things simply because they're new.

[Flipside]

Weird thing is, as far as I can remember, Supermarkets have been using Hydrocarbons suspended in Glycerine and then warmed slightly to produce a scent for years in order to encourage people to buy food.

This seems to assume that ALL E-Cig liquids contain Nicotine, which is a false assumption, the whole point is that you start on a liquid with Nicotine in and reduce the amount of Nicotine, then you can worry about the 'Ritual' of having a smoke after dinner etc, but at least you aren't putting yourself or others at risk whilst you deal with the hardest part of quitting.

Worked for me.

[Phantom Hoover]

E-Cigs use electric elements to vaporize a water, sugar and nicotine (+flavorings) mix for inhalation by the user.

Minor point, but e-cigarettes actually use an organic solvent for their fluid rather than water (I mean if you try to vaporise a solution of sugar in water you get caramel stuck to your heating element).

[Mikes]

Mhhhh the topic made me think of an article I read a while ago and ...

... googling "e-cigarettes explode" indeed reveals a health risk of a differrent kind with those new devices. (lol)

Kinda ironic that by avoiding lung cancer risk ... you may incur "kabooom in your face!" risk now. ;-)

[FrikgFeek]

To be fair, having your head explode sounds like something I'd rather put on my epitaph than "slow death by cancer".

[headdie]

E-Cigs use electric elements to vaporize a water, sugar and nicotine (+flavorings) mix for inhalation by the user.

Minor point, but e-cigarettes actually use an organic solvent for their fluid rather than water (I mean if you try to vaporise a solution of sugar in water you get caramel stuck to your heating element).

Fair enough

[Flipside]

Hmmmm...

http://www.air-aroma.com/who-scenting/food

Although the systems are referred to as 'Diffusers', it does appear that the science behind them is very, very similar.

[Mikes]

To be fair, having your head explode sounds like something I'd rather put on my epitaph than "slow death by cancer".

Well there is also that guy who had it "go off" in his trouser pocket ... lol.

[rev_posix]

Minor point, but e-cigarettes actually use an organic solvent for their fluid rather than water (I mean if you try to vaporise a solution of sugar in water you get caramel stuck to your heating element).

Vegetable glycerin and propylene glycol to be specific, both have been used in a large amount of things people have been putting on their skin, breathing in and eating for years.

... googling "e-cigarettes explode" indeed reveals a health risk of a differrent kind with those new devices. (lol)

Kinda ironic that by avoiding lung cancer risk ... you may incur "kabooom in your face!" risk now. ;-)

Googling for that does turn up more than a few stories about it happening, yes, but they also seem to have a few things in common:

The person was using a 'mechanical mod', where it's up to the user and their design to control how much power it tries to use
The mod was a multi battery unit

Counterfeit batteries are a huge market, and has only grown as using 'e-cigs' has grown in popularity.  18650 is by far the most popular battery in use with most 'mods', and googling 'counterfeit 18650 battery' returns a lot of hit on this.

Right now, the trend seems to be going toward 'sub ohming', which puts even more stress on the power subsystem.  Figure .5 ohm coil pushing around 25 to 30 watts through it, that's around 7.5 amps being demanded from the battery(s).

Add in the knock off market (https://www.fasttech.com/ sells a lot of these), and quality can and does vary wildly.

[pecenipicek]

so can your phone, especially the ones with large batteries. its a known safety issue with lithium based rechargeable batteries. Also, less strict quality control with a ****ton of the cheap chinese drivel thats put out is definitely a risk. but on the other hand, i leave mine charging overnight and dont give a crap...

i've been using them for more than 2 years now and was prompted by horrid prices of cigs in Ireland, 9€/pack, coming from a country where tobacco taxes arent insane yet and a pack was something like 3€, it was "do i get an ecig kit for 30€ + 2-3€/week or do i pay 9€/day for the next 3 months" so yeah.

i've used ****tons of different products over the years and settled on stuff that some people might find "excessively large", which is basically 2 2600mah batteries with vaporizers with tanks of 5ml capacity. also, a ****ton of DIY stuff involved so yeah.

i personally go through roughly 75-80ml of e-liquid a week and i consider myself a heavy user of these. i never looked at it as a "something to help me quit".

i never intended to quit, nor do i have any wish to do so. this is just cheaper and stinks a ****ton less.

one thing i did get over was to go from 20mg cigs to 6mg/ml e-liquid and going to sweeter, non-tobacco flavors. for me, it was always about the smoke and the act of smoking. if what goes into me is less filled with crap and i dont have to cough up stinky phlegm every morning, yay.

also, one thing i know i've saved is tons and tons of money.
after two years of vaping and using and buying all sorts of crap, i spent roughly 800€ total on e-cigs and liquids. i was a 2 packs a day smoker. if i was smoking cigs, i would've spent roughly 4380€. probably more because i think cig prices went up to 4€/pack or so here.


Also, the content of the e-liquids is Propylen Glycol + Vegetable Glycerin + whatever the hell the flavours are made of and suspended in.
whatever sugar in there is part of the flavouring + whatever weird and wonderful chemical reactions happen with various flavourings and the PG & VG & nicotine that are used in there.

And yes, it absolutely does caramelize and build up on the coils. Basically, whatever does not turn to vapor when you take a whiff, tends to either go back to the liquid or stick to the coil, which over time builds up and you can then either burn off the residue or toss the coil and get/make a new one together with the wick. if anyone cares, there's a ****ton of info out there about all this crap, as well as a ****ton of lies, bull****, wishful thinking etc.


No, we arent sure if they are safe. Its not a verified well published fact that they are generally safer than normal cigarettes (AFAIK!). Logic would presume that the lack of the whole "burnt carbonized leaves + additives being inhaled" means they are safer than normal cigs. I personally neither know nor care much. What i do know is A) they dont stink up the place/clothes for ages B) my significant other doesnt mind them at all C) THEY HAS SWEET TASTES! D) cheaper. by like a lot.

[Dragon]

Exploding batteries are a good part of why people are interested in solid state (graphite, there was a thread some time ago) cells. I suppose that once they work in phones, they'll quickly make it to e-cigs. Until then, try not to overload the battery, or you're going to have the old "exploding cigar" scene rehearsed with modern technology (and dire consequences).

Poland also seems to be lumping vaporators with cigarettes. Most "no smoking" signs I see in trams and the like also feature an e-cig now. This is ridiculous, you can't even say the smoke bothers the driver, because it dissipates fairly quickly. It doesn't reek, there's no ash, no butts (throwing enough of them around is a sure-fire way to make a place look dirty and decrepit, no matter how new) and doesn't even hurt the smoker much. Not to mention it's a much cheaper habit than traditional cigarettes (nevermind cigars, or at least good ones). If anything, they should be subsidized and their use by smokers encouraged.

[Bobboau]

There has been a bizarre health panic around ecigs recently that I can only imagine has been funded by the tobacco industry.

[Mars]

I managed to quit with them, I feel like anything that makes them harder to access will make them less effective an alternative and quitting aid.

[pecenipicek]

Googling for that does turn up more than a few stories about it happening, yes, but they also seem to have a few things in common:

The person was using a 'mechanical mod', where it's up to the user and their design to control how much power it tries to use
The mod was a multi battery unit

Counterfeit batteries are a huge market, and has only grown as using 'e-cigs' has grown in popularity.  18650 is by far the most popular battery in use with most 'mods', and googling 'counterfeit 18650 battery' returns a lot of hit on this.

Right now, the trend seems to be going toward 'sub ohming', which puts even more stress on the power subsystem.  Figure .5 ohm coil pushing around 25 to 30 watts through it, that's around 7.5 amps being demanded from the battery(s).

Add in the knock off market (https://www.fasttech.com/ sells a lot of these), and quality can and does vary wildly.

i have no idea how i managed to miss your post

And yes, nailed it all in one.


For my part, i abhor the whole "subohming" crap. i've been sticking to my 6-7W fun, even with a monster atty like taifun gt... everything else pisses away the liquid like no tomorrow, eats the battery and taste is... non-existent. 2.5 Ohm is where its at for meh.

[Scourge of Ages]

I despise cigarette smoke possibly more than anything in the world. Anything that helps eliminate that from the environment should be at least as legal.

But those huge clouds of smoke, no matter how safe, are at least psychologically distressing to anybody who enjoys air.

[pecenipicek]

I despise cigarette smoke possibly more than anything in the world. Anything that helps eliminate that from the environment should be at least as legal.

But those huge clouds of smoke, no matter how safe, are at least psychologically distressing to anybody who enjoys air.

not to mention that they do in fact trigger a choking reflex in anyone not expecting it / used to it.

Personally, i've been using it at work, but cleared it with everyone there if they are bothered by it. Very occasionaly it happens that somebody gets a bit bothered by the smell, but simply because well, strong vanilla can get a smidge annoying after you've been exposed to it the whole day. Granted, we have windows open to the outside the whole day anyhow simply because of how hot it is in the office otherwise.

[BirdofPrey]

I don't think e-cigs need to be banned, but it would be nice, at least, if there weren't so many dicks who hype tout the lack of health detriment of cigarettes then blow nicotine vapor into your face.  I've even had people who say, "X has asked me not to use that around him/her, but I do anyways since it's not like X can smell it"

Just because it isn't (as) bad for you, doesn't make you not an asshole, and they might not be considering bans nearly as much if people were actually considerate of others.