Author Topic: Time to get gay married  (Read 36902 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Time to get gay married
Quote
It is one of the reasons why I am so intellectually against tools like Randi Harper's blockbot, which assures, among many other things, that her opponents become even *more* entrenched in their own views than otherwise.
Let's just pretend it hasn't made twitter useable for a lot of people, that it instantly killed 95% of the worst harrassment when I started using it. We could also pretend you didn't actually think you should be able to sue these bots for slandering you.

Block bots are blunt instruments, but they are effective, as for some people there's simply no alternative available.

Quote
90% of the people doing this so-called "saying things" are actually white wealthy affluent hipsters, and even those who are not whites, they are usually way more affluent than most people reading it.
I didn't know Taurip Moosa was a white affluent hipster. Or Alexander. Or Katherine Cross. Do you actually believe journalism is that lucrative an endeavor for these people? Many of the posts that draw so much attention have been written for literally no money. You will not make very much doing what they do. It's not something you do for creature comforts.

Do you actually believe 3000 dollars a month on patreon is a lot of money? As much as a third of it never gets collected. Can you multiply numbers times 12? And we haven't even mentioned the different cost of living. The only person who has actually gotten a nice hunk of cash off patreon while expressing any sort of sympathy to representational issues in our areas of interest has been Jim ****ing Sterling, son.

By contrast, how much does Paul Elam make a year to rant about feminists?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 03:42:40 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 
Re: Time to get gay married
I honestly didn't try very hard to come-up with stereotypical SJW insults, but you do agree with me then, that even though the words might be different the same tactics are being employed.

Mansplainers, white supremacists, cis-scum, ****lords, mysoginerds, ****slingers, native american-exotifying cisgender-normative ableists!

I mean, there are no limits to these people's insults. But most precisely, they usually lack imagination to come up with new terms, so they appropriate other terms and use them far beyond the scope of what they originally meant. A mysoginist is not just someone who hates women, but someone who merely disagrees with them on a marginal point. A racist ****lord is not someone who believes in racism or engages in racist acts or whatever, it's just someone who doesn't agree with identity politics.

Things start to get ugly when rape-apologists is used to describe people who might, say, have found the occurrences around the Rolling Stone rape fubar situation not credible (or the Michael Shermer case, or Ben Radford's case, or, or, or, etc.). The thought process is clear: you, by your "hyper-skepticist behavior" are enabling rape by dismissing cases as they are being presented. Listen and believe, or else you are a rape enabler, thus someone who is working with the system in order to defend the practice of rape. Therefore, you're not just some skeptical guy, you're a rape apologist.

It's even scarier when you realise these people actually went throughout this entire reasoning.

Okay, that's always where I lose you. Who the actual **** are 'these people'?

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Time to get gay married
He means the stuffed strawmen he keeps in his yard. I think you can guess which names he gives them.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Time to get gay married
Who the actual **** are 'these people'?

Damnit Luis, couldn't you have held on to your ****ing spaghetti for just a while longer, I felt like I was starting to have a civil discussion for once.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
Re: Time to get gay married
Time for the thoughts of an agnostic supporter of gay marriage:

This overall Supreme Court decision involved a horrible maiming of the 14th Amendment, which is a proud tradition started by Roe v. Wade, which made the right to privacy appear out of thin air, then established that as a woman's right to choose out of thin air.  Even as someone who is all for abortion rights its a bad decision.  Now, back to the gay marriage thing after that little tangent.  I'm not celebrating since I think this was more properly a matter for the states to decide under the 10th Amendment.  Now, before you jump on me, I think there is an excellent case under the 14th Amendment for states to be forced to recognize gay marriages performed out of state.  However, that is not what happened here, and this decision has laid a precedent for any sort of marriage to be deemed a protected civil right, not just gay marriages.  From a purely legal standpoint, there is a massive can of worms in here from the wording of the majority decision, and I think we're going to see it quoted as supporting precedent by just about anyone who thinks their civil rights are being denied.  I see this case as ushering in an age of legal relativism, where anything is a civil right the government must mandate protection for, no matter what it is.

I hope I am wrong about all of that, and that we don't see a massive societal decay as anything becomes accepted and legally protected, but as Goober said, we're only going to find out in a few year's time exactly what the repercussions are.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Time to get gay married
Quote
This overall Supreme Court decision involved a horrible maiming of the 14th Amendment, which is a proud tradition started by Roe v. Wade, which made the right to privacy appear out of thin air, then established that as a woman's right to choose out of thin air.  Even as someone who is all for abortion rights its a bad decision.  Now, back to the gay marriage thing after that little tangent.
One of the arguments advanced against the Bill of Rights by the Federalists was that if you wrote down a set of rights to be explicitly maintained then people would believe that those were the only rights that the government was obliged to honor. Well they were right about that. And if you're going to take the idea of being an Originalist seriously, then you need to acknowledge that there are fundamental rights other than those explicitly stated in the Constitution. And the right to privacy is absolutely ****ing one of them. If you have to use the penumbra argument to get it in there, so be it.

Quote from: Justice John Marshall Harlan, about Poe vs. Ullman
The full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution. This 'liberty' is not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of property; the freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to keep and bear arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; and so on. It is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints.
**** yeah.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:21:15 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 
Re: Time to get gay married
Congratulations on misrepresenting my argument, which is not about rights so much as it is the legal arguments in which court decisions have added them.  You're also cherry picking that one part of my argument and implying that I am somehow against privacy rights as well as all other rights not explicitly enshrined in the Constitution.  Intentionally or not, you have my views completely backwards, in which I believe that unless the Constitution says the federal government has the right to do something, it does not.  Don't forget that the Constitution was authored by men who believed that their civil rights were a natural part of human existence rather than something the government granted them.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Time to get gay married
On a related subject, will someone please explain why even liberal publications are praising Scalia's dissent? Like most of his famous dissents it's an unprofessional muddle, light on actual legal analysis, and occasionally descends into outright ranting. Scalia isn't a Worthy OpponentTM, he's just awful. If I want to read the cause of Pure Evil advanced through careful, well argued legal analysis, I'll read Clarence Thomas. He's actually a pretty smart dude, even if he is Pure Evil.

Quote
Congratulations on misrepresenting my argument, which is not about rights so much as it is the legal arguments in which court decisions have added them.  You're also cherry picking that one part of my argument and implying that I am somehow against privacy rights as well as all other rights not explicitly enshrined in the Constitution.  Intentionally or not, you have my views completely backwards, in which I believe that unless the Constitution says the federal government has the right to do something, it does not.  Don't forget that the Constitution was authored by men who believed that their civil rights were a natural part of human existence rather than something the government granted them.
And you misunderstood my point. Your take on the Court's decisions was a reasonable one, even if I don't agree with it. I was arguing why that shouldn't matter.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 08:40:40 pm by Mr. Vega »
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 
Re: Time to get gay married
If legal opinions happened in a vacuum, it wouldn't matter.  However, legal arguments and judicial opinions are based very nearly entirely on preceding law and the arguments and judgments presented therein.  This article has a few highlights of the various dissents, dealing heavily with that specific manner, especially involving the dissents of Roberts and Thomas.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Time to get gay married
...

I interpreted what you said the same way, what with the 'invented new rights out of thin air' rhetoric. Gay people have had a right to marry this whole time and it's only due to the government misapplying the law that they have been denied for as long as they have. they are people and part of The People and so they are part of where the government derives it's power from. They have a right to equal treatment under the law.

will someone please explain why even liberal publications are praising Scalia's dissent?

Well, he made a good point, about the court overstepping it's bounds but it was misapplied.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Time to get gay married
If legal opinions happened in a vacuum, it wouldn't matter.

The legal system does not exist in a vacuum either. Precedent is not the only thing that matters, as well you should know.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Time to get gay married
Quote
It is one of the reasons why I am so intellectually against tools like Randi Harper's blockbot, which assures, among many other things, that her opponents become even *more* entrenched in their own views than otherwise.
Let's just pretend it hasn't made twitter useable for a lot of people, that it instantly killed 95% of the worst harrassment when I started using it. We could also pretend you didn't actually think you should be able to sue these bots for slandering you.

Block bots are blunt instruments, but they are effective, as for some people there's simply no alternative available.

We don't need to pretend I thought we should be able to sue bots for slander, because that's both silly and I never stated it. Not only sueing bots is ridiculous, I never advocated sueing either the Atheism plus blockbot nor Randi's nor, as it were, their creators. I did watch the kerfuffle with attention because it would affect twitter's usage future. I am also guilty of enjoying a schadenfreude moment with the closing shop of Troloon's bot.

Yes, blockbots are blunt instruments that curtail the experience of many people (according to Randi, more than 95% are false positives), because a few can't be bothered to use the block button themselves. They are also bully tools that these people have in their arsenal to intimidate them, isolate them. But that's not even my major point or gripe. Randi's tool was inevitable in a sense, given how Twitter and their APIs work. I've never agreed with the idea that a block should force an unfollow and punish those blocked by turning your account invisible to them. It should merely be a block of contact (if they block you, you can't retweet them, you can't contact them, they won't see your tweets even if RTd by others).

Quote
I didn't know Taurip Moosa was a white affluent hipster. Or Alexander. Or Katherine Cross. Do you actually believe journalism is that lucrative an endeavor for these people? Many of the posts that draw so much attention have been written for literally no money. You will not make very much doing what they do. It's not something you do for creature comforts.

Do you actually believe 3000 dollars a month on patreon is a lot of money? As much as a third of it never gets collected. Can you multiply numbers times 12? And we haven't even mentioned the different cost of living. The only person who has actually gotten a nice hunk of cash off patreon while expressing any sort of sympathy to representational issues in our areas of interest has been Jim ****ing Sterling, son.

By contrast, how much does Paul Elam make a year to rant about feminists?

I never said journalism is a lucrative endeavour. I made a remark on the kind of culture and affluence of the *people* involved. Curiously, we do know that the current state of journalism also comes from the fact that it is so poorly paid. Game journalism is an entire joke, "professionalism" is just a luxury these sites cannot apparently afford. They have shown themselves to merely be glorified blogs.

Regarding 3000 dollars a month for doing nothing not being "a lot of money", I could only say "See, I rest my case", for I do live in a world where people with families to feed are lucky to earn a thousand dollars for working hard 8, 10, 12 hours a day. But I guess when you live in a world where people go to twitter to complain that at some point of their lives they were so broke they even "had to work", this affluence thing just flies over your face.

Regarding Paul Elam, do I look like Paul Elam? Why are you asking me this? Have I ever defended Paul Elam's work anywhere? Have I ever defended him anywhere at all? You could contrast with anyone else in the world for all I care.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Time to get gay married
Okay, that's always where I lose you. Who the actual **** are 'these people'?

I'm sorry Bobboau, but this is a clear question and deserves an answer. Social Justice Warriors. I thought I made it clear. To even be more clear, since I can see that there's some confusion here, I do not regard you as one. Not even Vega qualifies (to me at least), you appear to just share some ideological ideas with them, but that's not a problem in my book at all. This does not constitute "warriorism", what constitutes it is when certain people go out of their way to attack, troll, manipulate and intimidate other people into submission if they do not bow down to the ideology at hand.

All I ever got from either you or Vega (or any other member of this community) is vehement disagreement. And this is perfectly legitimate, respectful and even desirable.

"There are no bad tactics only bad targets" is the mentality to watch out for. Bringing a scientist to tears for a *shirt*, firing a nobel laureate because of a *joke*, getting two programmers fired from their jobs because they told a joke *to each other*, bullying people out of their jobs for the "Cause" despite being outed as attached to prominent racist trolls themselves, engaging in doxxing and dogpiling while pretending to expose this behavior in others.

This is a set of behaviors that has been witnessed on and on and on, to handwave like you do and pretend "these people" are a figment of my imagination, is silly. Vega can blind himself all he wants, he shouldn't be dragging people down to his cave of dumbstruckness.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Time to get gay married
Do you actually believe 3000 dollars a month on patreon is a lot of money?

Oh yes, it is certainly a lot of money for merely writing some blogs on the net.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Time to get gay married
$3000 per month is just over double what I currently make doing actual work, so **** yes that's a lot.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Time to get gay married
it's also base income, it doesn't include money made speaking or consulting.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Time to get gay married
Just a note to say that this thread has generated a couple of post reports.  Nothing warranting sanctions yet, but it's worth reiterating Scotty's earlier precaution.

Wow, this thread filled up with rhetoric again fast.  I'm not going to step in, yet, but please take a moment before you post to make sure it's not too inflammatory going on.

Also, if you do report a post, take the time to point out what is deserving of moderation.  Saying things like "Why have we not banned this guy yet" is just sniping and doesn't back up your case.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Time to get gay married
why haven't we banned the people asking why we haven't banned that guy yet?
ban the banites!

...but wait no not the metabanites!  :shaking:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 12:16:34 am by Bobboau »
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

  

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Time to get gay married
To be clear, nobody has actually asked for anyone to be banned.

Well, nobody except you just now.  Maybe we should ban the meta-banites? :snipe:

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Time to get gay married
Well I do agree the thread has gone a tad off topic.

To shut up about what's going on on the left, I'll speak a bit about what I've been seeing in the Right. I've noticed that some people that were usually soft-spoken are becoming a bit more feisty. These people are starting to talk like Vox Day in strategic military jargon style, or like Mark Steyn in terms of the challenges they face. They feel besieged in many fronts and see threats to their worldview everywhere.

It's overwhelmingly possible that this is just the fallout to the supreme court's decision, and everyone is still heated up. Small mistakes like Takei's "blackface" comment become a "Let them eat cake"-type mob indignation. Nevertheless, a resentment is brewing up on the Rigth, I have little doubts about it. I only ignore its size and duration.