[Bobboau]

They've been doing that for 20 years. the problems on the extreme right and left is that they see themselves as the normal guy, the far right claims that they speek for the silent majority, the far left refuses to accept that most liberals find them repugnant. both of them have a habit of seeking out positions of power to try and force their warped sense of justice upon everyone else.

[Luis Dias]

Indeed. All this rethoric of how posting a rainbow in support of gay rights is being an "Anti-Christian hater" drives me up the wall.

[Luis Dias]

C0nc0rdance posted this video about what he thinks about the Confederate flag issue that spawned from this ruling.

I think his take is the best I've seen so far. Highly recommended!

[Bobboau]

/*haven't watched yet*/
he usually has really good, levelheaded takes on emotionally charged issues.

[edit]yup, that was pretty good[/edit]

[Flipside]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33393860



[attachment deleted by nobody]

[Bobboau]

yeah, that is an actual artifact of TV history. that might be going to far.

[Luis Dias]

Shouldn't they rename the car as well?

[Dragon]

Well, if they're getting rid of the Lee's battle flag, what would make it distinct form any old Charger? What was kind of the point of calling it "General Lee", wasn't it? (though admittedly, they way it's painted means it resembles the Confederate naval jack more than Lee's flag)

Actually, I think that more distinction should be made between those flags. The flag on General Lee's roof (and similar ones) was not the flag of the confederacy, but merely a flag of a particularly badass general (or somewhat less badass, but inventive, Confederate navy). This flag and all similar ones represented the fighting forces, the soldiers, sailors, etc. Those who fought and died in the civil war. Regardless of who or what they fought for, I think they deserve respect.

Now, if you're looking for a flag to represent racism and slavery of Confederacy as a whole, the (nearly forgotten) "stars and bars" would be the way to go. It was the actual Confederate flag, and stood for the entirety of the Confederacy, not just the fighters. This one doesn't deserve as much respect, though not everything was bad about the Confederacy, it was rather proudly racist.

[NGTM-1R]

Well, if they're getting rid of the Lee's battle flag, what would make it distinct form any old Charger? What was kind of the point of calling it "General Lee", wasn't it? (though admittedly, they way it's painted means it resembles the Confederate naval jack more than Lee's flag)

Actually, I think that more distinction should be made between those flags. The flag on General Lee's roof (and similar ones) was not the flag of the confederacy, but merely a flag of a particularly badass general (or somewhat less badass, but inventive, Confederate navy). This flag and all similar ones represented the fighting forces, the soldiers, sailors, etc. Those who fought and died in the civil war. Regardless of who or what they fought for, I think they deserve respect.

Now, if you're looking for a flag to represent racism and slavery of Confederacy as a whole, the (nearly forgotten) "stars and bars" would be the way to go. It was the actual Confederate flag, and stood for the entirety of the Confederacy, not just the fighters. This one doesn't deserve as much respect, though not everything was bad about the Confederacy, it was rather proudly racist.

Spoken as someone uneducated on the history and unconnected to the pulse of the issue.

The Confederate "battle flag" exists as in the the South primarily because it was employed during the '60s as a direct reaction to and rejection of the Civil Rights Movement. It is not a flag any particular army fought for; the closest, the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, was square, and the next closest relative, the second naval jack, has differently arranged stars and a slightly different shape.

Nobody recognizes the Stars and Bars, and actually it's the preferred flag of reenactors precisely because it doesn't carry the racist tones that the Southern Cross or things like it does to most people.

The "Confederate flag" of the modern era is not a forgery, not quite, but only because a similar design was rejected for the Confederate national flag. This saved it to play an ignominious role for a second pack of nullification states-rights yahoos to rally around about a hundred years after the war was over, because having incorporated an actual flag of what were ultimately seditionists and traitors would have been a little much even for them. It was never flown by any nation on this planet, nor any American military force. It was first adopted on a wide scale specifically as a symbol of racist resistance.

Removing this anachronistically added flag from the historical record would be a mercy and a sign of respect to the dead of the Civil War. Regardless of your position on whether the Confederate dead are owed respect and sympathy (personally, I think they are as Americans if nothing else), it's not their flag.

[Bobboau]

I have a feeling there are one or two southerners who would disagree with you as to what the flag represents. but I guess what the actual people who are actually flying that flag right now and for decades think is irrelevant to what it means, we have to teach those savages civility.

[AdmiralRalwood]

I have a feeling there are one or two southerners who would disagree with you as to what the flag represents. but I guess what the actual people who are actually flying that flag right now and for decades think is irrelevant to what it means, we have to teach those savages civility.

There are people who disagree as to what the swastika represents, too. Should we fly a swastika flag on government buildings?

[Flipside]

Personally, I think the problem was that this flag, of them all, was unable of be lowered to half-mast. There probably wouldn't have even been an issue on this if the flagpole had just been adjustable, maybe some grumbling, but certainly not this response.It was that which was the insult more than its mere existence to my eyes.

At the end of the day, you aren't going to end racism by destroying an arrangement of primary colours, regardless of what they may or may not represent, flags have a habit of becoming a rallying point.

[Luis Dias]

Spoken as someone uneducated on the history and unconnected to the pulse of the issue.

(...)

Nobody recognizes the Stars and Bars, and actually it's the preferred flag of reenactors precisely because it doesn't carry the racist tones that the Southern Cross or things like it does to most people.

The "Confederate flag" of the modern era is not a forgery, not quite, but only because a similar design was rejected for the Confederate national flag. This saved it to play an ignominious role for a second pack of nullification states-rights yahoos to rally around about a hundred years after the war was over, because having incorporated an actual flag of what were ultimately seditionists and traitors would have been a little much even for them. It was never flown by any nation on this planet, nor any American military force. It was first adopted on a wide scale specifically as a symbol of racist resistance.

Just putting this out here:



Clearly, Jimmy Carter was a plain racist and you're not completely overblowing your case one bit. Not one bit at all.

[NGTM-1R]

Just putting this out here:

What, your blatant ignorance when it comes to matters of the Confederate flag?

That's an authentic battle flag for the 45th Georgia Regiment, Anderson's Brigade, A.P. Hill's Division, Army of Northern Virginia. Look at the angling of the cross arms; it's a square flag, not elongated one. Maybe Carter had relatives in that unit; maybe whoever owned the building that picture was taken in did.

Regardless, you're making an argument from a premise that clearly does not withstand scrutiny.

I have a feeling there are one or two southerners who would disagree with you as to what the flag represents. but I guess what the actual people who are actually flying that flag right now and for decades think is irrelevant to what it means, we have to teach those savages civility.

Speaking as a Southerner by birth, someone whose Civil War-era relatives exclusively fought for the Confederacy and a number of whom owned slaves, **** 'em if they can't tell the flags apart.

[Luis Dias]

Just putting this out here:

What, your blatant ignorance when it comes to matters of the Confederate flag?

That's an authentic battle flag for the 45th Georgia Regiment, Anderson's Brigade, A.P. Hill's Division, Army of Northern Virginia. Look at the angling of the cross arms; it's a square flag, not elongated one. Maybe Carter had relatives in that unit; maybe whoever owned the building that picture was taken in did.

I do indeed admit general ignorance on these matters, for it is not my history, it is yours so I defer to you. I just find it unbelievable that the story is so one sided. Controversies are never one sided. Also, when you say "it's an authentic battle flag ...", "it's a square flag, not an elongated one", well, I defer to your deep knowledge of these things, but according to Wikipedia, this square flag was also used within the bigger second official flag of the confederacy, drawn by William Thompson, who had this to say about its design:

As a people we are fighting maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.

The flag was mostly white with the battle flag embeded in it. Isn't this one the real racist flag? (the white one) Correct me if I am wrong here, but the so-called "Confederate flag" that is in the center of all this controversy is just a navy jack used by battle ships, in an analogous fashion to the Northern Virginia army flag. Why is one a "nazi flag" while the other is just homage to the dead people who fought in a senseless war?

Nevertheless, I admit all of it. Let's just say that I'm disturbed by all of this war on symbols that the far left is so keen to initiate these days. To compare the 2nd navy jack flag of the confederacy to the "Nazi Flag" just clinches in my head that nuance and tolerance is an art that has been completely lost to the new generations of people. It's all or nothing these days.

[Phantom Hoover]

When was the golden age in which this wasn't the case? You know full well it never existed.

[Luis Dias]

You're right, there was never a golden age, but there are dark ages, and we are in the middle of one.

[karajorma]

I don't know if I'd agree that it was a dark age. This stupidity is certainly preferable to what came before it. At least it's well-meaning stupidity rather than the nasty bigoted kind it has replaced.

That said, I'll agree that some people are very quick to take umbrage over nothing at all. I came across a great example today when someone made the mistake of getting poetic when watching the England Woman's football team return to Heathrow.

[Luis Dias]

Examples like that are dime a dozen every single day. Had they tweeted something to the men's team in the same vein, no one would have batted an eye, it would have looked amazingly normal and even, gasp, heart warming. But apparently, you can't say anything at women, if it slightly might be interpreted in a weird way, it will be, and you shall apologize, repent, commit hara kiri, whatever. /rant

[The E]

And when someone actually posts such a message about the men's team, you may have a point.

But noone does. Noone would even think of doing that under similar circumstances.