[T-Man]

(seems to be a common theme at the moment with Mongoose and Mars' recent threads; felt it would be impolite to hijack their topics though)

I've been planning and saving for a while to get myself a new PC for newer games and beefy programs like FS Open, Unreal 4 and potentially Maya LT. I'm admittedly not 100% on the hardware side of PCs or the current market, and recall there's some members and mods here with a lot of that hardware and market knowledge, so felt it wise to run past here the rig I'm currently considering going for in case I'm missing a catch with it.

Usually we buy parts and build our PCs, but we found recently this Dell that has practically every element was looking for (may look into shaving off some of the add-ons, and may wait a bit and see if I can get it with Win10; seems a waste to get 8.1 just to upgrade it the moment I get it) and is going for well below what I was expecting to have to save.

The main bit I'm not sure of with the deal is the graphics card (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 745 4GB DDR3); I've had a lot of NVIDIAs so am used to them but don't know much about this one's age or whether it's got the grunt I'm hoping for (my dream benchmark was the PC being able to run BP's Icarus cut scene full blast without stuttering; dooable or a fools errand?). I did find some posts on TomsHardware saying it's apparently a custom card made especially for PC builders like Dell and they had found some specs for it, if it helps judging it;

Code: [Select]

Nvidia Geforce GTX 745
 Discrete Memory: 4GB DDR3
 Width: Single Slot
 Wattage: 50 W
 Controller Speed/Graphics Clock: 1033 MHz
 OnBoard Memory Speed: 900 MHz
 Onboard Memory Data Width: 128 bit
 API Supported: DirectX 11.2, Open GL 4.4, OpenCL
 Slot Requirements: 3.0 Gen PCIe x16
 Maximum Resoltion:
 2048x1536
 1920x1080 HDMI
 2569x1600 DVI
 I/O Ports:
 1xDual Link DVI-D
 1xHDMI
 1xVGA
Sound like a good buy to you guys?

[The E]

Hmm. Passmark says it's about comparable to a Radeon 7770 or GTX 460, which would make it a lower mid-end kind of card. Especially for that price/performance/wattage ratio, that's a pretty good deal; You should be able to get at least Console-grade performance out of it in most games, especially considering the rather beefy CPU that system comes with.

That said, one thing to keep an eye on (and I couldn't find it at a glance) is the kind of PSU that system comes with. My guess is something in the 300 to 400 Watt range, this is going to be a bottleneck should you choose to upgrade the GPU.

[Gee1337]

Personally, I would not touch a Dell with a 40 foot barge pole. My Dad use to fix Dells and one thing he noted is how similar they are to Peugeots (yes I know this is brand of car). The similarity is that if a Dell part breaks, you have to replace it with a Dell part and cannot use something aftermarket. The other problem is the amount of  shyte that comes with these pre-built machines.

In fact, I would not touch any branded build, including anything like Alienware... usually because you are paying for the name. The only time I would think of a brand is in laptops.

if you want a pre-built machine, get a specialist company like Novatech to do it!

If you can build a desktop, stick to building it yourself.

What would be good to know to help you with a build is:-

1) Budget (most important)
2) How fast you want it
3) Do you need just a box or do you need other things like a monitor, keyboard and mouse etc...
4) Multi-tasking or single threading

EDITS:-

5) How long do you want this build to last?
6) Will you be muli-screening?
7) Will you be downloading and needing lots of storage?

[General Battuta]

If you can get comfortable with applying thermal paste, building your own PC is absolutely the way to go. I've done it twice. Always worth it.

[Turambar]

If you can get comfortable with applying thermal paste, building your own PC is absolutely the way to go. I've done it twice. Always worth it.

And it's fun!

[Mongoose]

Even if it makes you bleed a bit!  Or maybe especially so then!

But as far as Dells go, going back to my family's 2000-ish desktop, I've always seen at least one major component fail within only 2 or 3 years.  That original one had its HDD go kaput relatively quickly, my 2004 system did the same (and yet its replacement has been going 7 years strong), and the current family Vista-era system had its PSU conk out within a couple of years (and that thing only experienced light usage).  I know these are just anecdotes, and the Dell laptops my brothers went off to college with served them well, but personally I'd never buy another Dell desktop for anyone.

[FIZ]

One thing with prefabs is they can be a real pain in the ass if the power supply blows.  I've taken ones apart that have had the cables both over and under the mobo.

I like to have at least 2 PCI expansion slots, I've had onboard USB and Ethernet connection issues with mobos before.  A lot easier if you can just pop a replacement card in for something faulty on the southbridge.

You go to NewEgg or something similar and see what you can build for yourself for 800 quid?  I always get carried away and go a bit over target, but if you're worried about the graphics card already, might as well factor that in.

[Mongoose]

One thing with prefabs is they can be a real pain in the ass if the power supply blows.  I've taken ones apart that have had the cables both over and under the mobo.

Yeah, plus there's the possibility of custom hardware sizes.  I once looked into replacing the one in my 2004 Dell, but its original PSU was a couple of centimeters shorter than the standard size, plus its case didn't have the usual rectangular cut-out, so I couldn't physically fit a new one in there.  Luckily it seems as though Dell at least partially wised up over the next few years, since the family's dead PSU was standard size and easy to replace.

[Gee1337]

I suggested this build to Mongoose on his thread:-

Intel i7 4790K $319
MSI Z97 Gaming G45 $134
G Skill Ripjaws 16GB Ram £100
Samsung SSD $162
Hitachi HDD $124
Zotac GTX970 Omega Core $340
Rosewell Thor V2 $120
EVGA 750 watt PSU $94

Total:- $1393

This little lot translated to about £930, when converting USD to Sterling (using an average exchange rate of $1.50 to £1.00). I would class Mongoose's build as reasonably high end.

This build below is similar, and if you were to just buy from Ebuyer would cost £1141. But the whole build could be done cheaper if you shop around. Price in brackets is as quoted on PriceSpy.

Intel i7 4790K £292 (£255)
MSI Z97 Gaming G45 £111 (£101)
G Skill Ripjaws 16GB Ram £116 (£86)
Samsung 850 EVO SSD 250GB £86 (£74)
Seagate 2TB SHDD £80 £(72)
Gigabyte GTX 970 OC WINDFORCE 3X 4GB GDDR5 £263 (£254)
In Win GR One Gaming Case Full Tower E-ATX USB3 Black & Red £83.00 (Ebuyer cheapest for this so same price)
EVGA SuperNOVA 750 watt P2 Power Supply £110 (same again)

Ebuyer Price £1141
PriceSpy (shopping around)  £1035

Price compared to Mongoose's build, we have it a bit rough this side of the pond.

A couple of parts could be swapped out for cheaper options to skrimp on some cash. You could also save another £100 if you use an AMD mobo and CPU.

As FIZ said as well, you could build something for £800 easily and it would most likely be a lot better then what Dell would sell you!

Also, made an edit to my post earlier with regards to questions that need answering when building.

[Mr. Vega]

If you can get comfortable with applying thermal paste, building your own PC is absolutely the way to go. I've done it twice. Always worth it.

How much practice should I do before doing it for real for the first time.

[Mongoose]

I just wussed out and used the stock cooler because the idea of dealing with paste scares the hell out of me.

[Turambar]

I just wussed out and used the stock cooler because the idea of dealing with paste scares the hell out of me.

Pshh, it's not bad, you just smear it on there!  It's not boiling acid

[Phantom Hoover]

I think the fear is of misapplying it and damaging your CPU. I narrowly avoided doing so with a stock cooler.

[Klaustrophobia]

Thermal paste isn't hard to deal with at all.  Two schools of thought on it, and I've done both with no ill effects.

1) Smear it over the die on the CPU yourself.  Can use fingers or some kind of spreader tool.  I've used a business card.  Many use credit cards.  Really, anything stiff enough and lint free would work.
Pro: Easier to absolutely ensure full coverage and keep the thickness to a minimum.
Con: Messy.  Silver-based ones stain, including your skin for a while.  Hard to get perfectly even.

2) Put a sizeable drop in the center (or lines/other patterns if you want to get fancy) of the heatsink surface and let the pressure as you install spread it for you.
Pro: Even coverage.  A bit easier.  As long as you start with a big enough drop or use a good pattern (I used lines along the heat pipe seams for mine), there's really no worry about not being covered enough.  Really though, if a tiny bit of the corners aren't covered with paste, it'll still be fine.
Con:  Usually results in thicker layer than it's possible to get spreading it yourself.  Excess will run out the edges and should really be scraped away.  Can be annoying depending on your heatsink.  You can't see for yourself that it covered everything.  You could always pull it up to check, but then that defeats the point of doing it this way.

Google "applying thermal paste" and you'll find a plethora of articles and videos to help you out.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, exactly, I just watched a bunch of YouTube tutorials and gave it a shot.

[CP5670]

I spread the paste using a plastic sandwich bag with my hand in it. You don't want to touch the paste directly, as skin oils will reduce its effectiveness. The 4790K stock cooler is lousy and barely adequate for that processor, which runs very hot on certain types of code (AVX2).

Note that FS2 is totally CPU limited on modern systems and will slow down in many missions regardless of the hardware, so you probably won't see much improvement there. I believe the collision detection code makes it slow down.

[Gee1337]

If you apply too much paste and need to clean it, makeup removal pads are very effective as they contain the alcohol used for cleaning electronics!

MX4 Paste comes in a syringe and it is quite easy to apply, but if it blobs up then you can use a cotton bud (or cue tip in the U.S... i think) to help spread it!

[AdmiralRalwood]

Note that FS2 is totally CPU limited on modern systems and will slow down in many missions regardless of the hardware, so you probably won't see much improvement there. I believe the collision detection code makes it slow down.

Usually; it depends on the mission, but with the newer rendering engine, it's entirely possible to find yourself GPU-limited.

[zookeeper]

Surely any CPU + stock cooler combo comes with instructions of how, where and how much thermal paste to apply, anyway. It's not exactly rocket science, so all you really need is to watch a few video tutorials on the subject (about your specific CPU and cooler wouldn't hurt) and think what you're doing enough that you're not putting things in backwards. It certainly doesn't require any esoteric knowledge or prior familiarity, it's enough to carefully follow instructions while applying common sense.

[Klaustrophobia]

keep q-tips/cotton swabs and anything else lint-producing the hell away from your thermal paste (unless removing and you're going to clean it after anyway).