Author Topic: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign  (Read 6270 times)

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Offline Damage

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UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
  This was very briefly touched on in the "Combining UEF and GTVA" thread several days ago, and it got me thinking:

Premise:  The UEF fighters and bombers seen during WiH would perform as well as or better than the GTVA's equivalent designs during the Main FS2 Campaign.

Caveats:  The UEF's fighter/bomber designs seen during BP:WiH are on a par with the TEI ships in use by the GTVA in Sol, therefore their inclusion in a campaign from thirty years ago is at best a thought exercise that we can test to only a limited degree.  (In short, does their inclusion in past events constitute "cheating" in some way?)


A brief search through the forums was inconclusive, though I suspect several people have actually put together the necessary mishmash of files to make it work.  The notion seems simple enough at first, though a bit daunting.  Consider the following questions:

1 -- Do we replace just the fighters and bombers, or do we include all the capital ships with their UEF equivalents?

2 -- Do we play-test the missions for balance and scripted events?

3 -- Would the early mission adjustments have effects later in the campaign's plot, and if so, is it necessary to model them as well?

  These are not remotely all the questions that will come up during a thought exercise like this, but they touch a few of the basics.

  My questions are: has anyone else done this already?  If so, how did it work out?  If not, does anyone else have any interest whatsoever?
  Again, this is only a thought exercise, but it's certainly more entertaining than anything else I have going on right now.  I'm planning to work on this myself for a couple weeks, though testing will be difficult until I get some hardware replaced.  I'm interested in the results of these tests at least.  However, if I get a strong negative feedback response on this topic, I'll let it go.

  Looking forward to comments!
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
I briefly tried this with TEV ships...
replacing the Myrmidon with the Kulas or how it is called and so on.
Trust me, the battle before the Sathanas kills the Colossus is a funny experience :D

 

Offline Venicius

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
I never tried this with FS2, but I did go through several FSPort missions and replace GTA ships with UEF ones....It was a bloodbath. Vasudans and Shivans never stood a chance. It think it was called "The Great War(in Heaven)" if you want to see it.

 

Offline Mars

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
Didn't try it with UEF ships, but TEI fighters dominate pretty hard on the main campaign. Nyx instead of Erynis is pretty funny and the Atalanta is boss.

 
Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
I think I did something like this a while ago; modded a mission or two in the FS2 campaign to let me pilot some WiH fighters, with WiH weapons.

Holy **** did it feel good. Well, good and broken, anyway. Kentaurois can completely outmaneuver any Shivan fighter that isn't a Dragon, and have much greater effective firepower than all but Shivan heavy bombers. But most of all--that glorious top speed makes all of those "cover a ridiculously huge area from rapidly appearing wings of Shivan bombers/fighters jumping in everywhere" missions become so much less annoying.

And then you get to pilot a Uriel, Durga, or Vajradhara against a Sathanas, and weep glorious tears of joy at no longer having to deal with 10-second, highly finicky lock-on times, 30-second rearm times, or painfully slow torpedoes.

Of course, it's not just UEF craft that eclipse their FS2 counterparts; the Nyx bulldozes its way through everything, so long as you don't need to get there particularly fast, the Atalanta will dance circles around nearly all Shivan craft, and the Draco makes covering large areas just as much of a breeze as it is with Kents. And of course, all hail the glorious Balor (finally giving the Maxim an effective, versatile, and energy-cheap companion weapon for everything non-anti-ship related). And for nebula missions, you've got the wonderful Aurora.

Oh yeah, nearly forgot the UEF stealth fighter. Load it with the shotgun-type cannon and go to town on some Shivans.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
If the question is merely one of modding, then it's a moot point. It's no contest. If the question is about how the WiH ships are way more effective in GTVA's space when they were designed for Sol, then that would be a far more interesting question. BP's ships are, on the whole, way more advanced than FS2 ships, so it shouldn't even be a surprise. Any world war 2 army would wipe the floor with any world war 1 army.

 

Offline Damage

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
If the question is merely one of modding, then it's a moot point. It's no contest. If the question is about how the WiH ships are way more effective in GTVA's space when they were designed for Sol, then that would be a far more interesting question. BP's ships are, on the whole, way more advanced than FS2 ships, so it shouldn't even be a surprise. Any world war 2 army would wipe the floor with any world war 1 army.

This is pretty much where I was going in my initial post.  If it was to be truly "fair" we'd need to know what ships/fighters were available to the UEF 30 years previously--some sort of hybrid force of remnant FS1 designs with pre-WIH designs just beginning to show up.  And I don't think any of that has been really touched on in BP lore yet.

Seems like WiH ships in FS2 (or TEI ships in same) leads to a foregone conclusion.  (Especially the TEI designs, they're specifically designed for the rapid elimination of Shivan threats.)  I doubt anything otherwise notable would be learned here.

I would like to see how the UEF ships would operate outside the Sol theater, but this has been discussed in other threads.
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
You have seen that, the 14th battlegroup basically fought the war it was ready for in the alternate dimension. And quite successfully in all accounts.

 

Offline procdrone

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
You have seen that, the 14th battlegroup basically fought the war it was ready for in the alternate dimension. And quite successfully in all accounts.

Their only issue was running out of supply truly. AND, from what we've seen, GTVA still doesn't have any preplanned Sathanas contingency. (they just repeated the bomber disarm, because it worked "the last time", didn't give any impression of beeing prepared and drilled for that)
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Offline Darius

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
The Sathanas engagement was a bit of a tactical mess as the juggernaut ambushed the Orestes immediately after the Lucifer engagement was resolved, at a time when half the battlegroup was unavailable.

The scenarios that GTVA crews have drilled for probably match the final stages of that engagement - multiple capship shock jumps at the flanks once strikecraft waves have taken out the forward beams.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
Truth be told...disable the forward beams of a Sathanas and it's just a big piece of junk...

 

Offline rubixcube

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
Truth be told...disable the forward beams of a Sathanas and it's just a big piece of junk...
Except those forward beams are not easy to disarm. Also, the Sathanas has a large fighter compliment, as well as a powerful rear facing beam cannon. In addition, we don't know what improvements the shivans may have made to the warship in the last 18 years. Oh and there's like 100 of them
Stuff

 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
Truth be told...disable the forward beams of a Sathanas and it's just a big piece of junk...
Except those forward beams are not easy to disarm. Also, the Sathanas has a large fighter compliment, as well as a powerful rear facing beam cannon. In addition, we don't know what improvements the shivans may have made to the warship in the last 18 years. Oh and there's like 100 of them

Confirmed shivan sympathizer.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
You can in fact see some improvements in AoA. She's not toothless without the forward beams.

 
Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
Sathanas discussion poses an interesting battle proposal. Hollywood ending of FS2 with a bunch of fighters and bombers bombing and Maximing those 400+ Sathanas beams. Too bad no PC can run such a mission.

 

Offline procdrone

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
Truth be told...disable the forward beams of a Sathanas and it's just a big piece of junk...

That applied to just any ship. Kill their turrets, and they are nuthing.
--Did it! It's RELEASED! VeniceMirror Thread--

 
Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
You have seen that, the 14th battlegroup basically fought the war it was ready for in the alternate dimension. And quite successfully in all accounts.
Indeed. For all the trouble the events of AoA caused the GTVA, those events DID provide excellent data on how the next generation of GTVA warships, craft, tactics, and technology would fare in a new war with the Shivans. As well as data on what the next tier of Shivan capabilities would look like--namely, the SSJ Dante (whose defeat I could only imagine happening through massive fighter and bomber assault to destroy its main beam cannons, followed by a massive assault by TEI warships...though even then, it'd be hard to prevent the Dante from just fleeing the system. Not sure how tough its engines are, but you'd have to disable those as well to ensure a kill).

Turns out, the TEI succeeded far better than anyone had predicted. Hell, this held true even BEFORE many components of the TEI could be fielded. I mean, imagine if the 14th BG had any of the TEI fighters beyond the Aurora and Kulas, or a Diomedes-class corvette? Being able to pilot a Draco would have made the situation in Forced Entry far easier, for instance, and the Nyx would have made taking out the main beams of Shivan destroyers far easier in that mission where the Temeraire (can't remember the spelling) faced three of them at once (and then another three on top of that).

But the sheer variety and depth of "testing" and experience the 14th got was astounding, in hindsight. You had a cruiser handle some fighters (and a bomber?) on its own, testing its point-defenses, as well as testing of its abilities to provide support to larger ships in major fleet engagements. You had thorough testing of the Aurora, including in nebula conditions. You had thorough testing of the Titan (anti-ship capabilities, mobility, carrier capabilities, shock-jumping, torpedo usage, how effective its secondary armament would be, its point defenses, and how well its armor stood up against Shivan beams) and Raynor (its rapid precision jumping, its speed, its ability to engage multiple Shivan warships simultaneously, how it could use its lesser carrier capacity to both soften enemy warships and launch precision strikes against an enemy's main armament before entering engagement range, how well its pulse turrets worked in an anti-ship role, and how well its point defenses and limited carrier capacity could work on defense) both. Shock-jumping doctrine was tested (the Temeraire, Labuchere, and Bretoniae shock-jumping a Demon and obliterating it in a single salvo, all vectored in by a single Aurora, was a pretty good demonstration of how damn efficient this tactic could be with the new TEI ships). Hell, the 14th even took on a Sathanas and won, with zero losses--using the design strengths of the Raynor-class, shock-jumping capabilities of the Titan, Chimera, and Bellerophon classes, as well as the newly reinforced doctrine of outmaneuvering and outrunning a Sathanas with warships while striking its beam cannons with fighters and bombers, THEN dog-piling the juggernaut with massive firepower. Additionally, you had thorough testing of the logistics ships, two of which keeping an entire battlegroup fully operational despite days (how long was it, exactly? A week? Two?) of intense combat, running and jumping everywhere, taking and repairing damage, etc. More than a battlegroup, actually, when you factor in the Sanctuary: a destroyer-sized, very old, very worn-down ship that sustained significant damage and had long-accumulated maintenance issues.

Really, if the Tev leadership wasn't intent on keeping the events of AoA completely secret, they would serve as a massive morale boost (well, provided you left out the discovery of the SSJ Dante, or seeing dozens of Sathanas juggernauts again). You basically had the complete and utter vindication of the TEI, even when many of its components had yet to be fielded. 

Really, the only major role the TEI still leaves unfilled (that even CAN be reasonably filled--I'm looking at you, warship-tank for destroyers/juggernauts) is 'heavy bomber'--important, because of how vital the role is when dealing with juggernauts. Well, that, and perhaps 'gunship', given how potent they've proven to be in the GTA-UEF war. I'm not sure how well the TEI covers the 'artillery ship' role, since we do actually see heavy beam artillery used in Her Finest Hour, but in that case it was mostly done by stationary beam cannon sentries, on defense, supported by two AWACS and three Auroras; I'm not sure whether a dedicated beam-artillery ship is needed to fill this role, or if existing ships can do it if supported by an AWACS or something. Anyway, Uriels can be godsend for de-fanging Shivan destroyers and even juggernauts before sending warships in to engage, and can make Shivan cruisers and corvettes non-threats to ships in short order. They're efficient and effective enough that they're quite practical to have even in small numbers, and the fact that they can also act as quasi-bombers if need be (given that they can carry light torpedoes, their gauss gun's respectable hull damage, good durability, presence of a turret, and the primary firepower's damage output and versatility) just ups their appeal.

Add in how well the Slammer addresses waves of Shivan bombers, how the Scalpel is versatile enough to be a viable supplementary weapon rather than an extremely niche "close-range subsystem killer", and how well the Durga both serves as a heavy bomber and fits the 'high-offense, high-DPS, high-mobility" doctrine the Tevs have going, and integrating those weapons/craft would bolster the TEI significantly. (With the Durga, I'm aware that it's quite expensive to produce and maintain--the idea would be that these are a strategic asset, very limited in quantity, but used carefully and sparingly when either needed or potentially extremely useful without significant risk involved; they'd basically be a vastly more effective Ursa, so there'd only be a few on each destroyer, at most.)

...I really wish the Draco was playable in AoA. Come to think of it, with the exception of Aristeia, every "cover a huge area from waves of fighters/bombers" mission in BP denies you the use of any of the new craft that are designed for this mission profile or capable of handling it well, annoyingly (though in Delenda Est's case, it's more that you have much more to worry about than just said role, so you have to take a slow gunship instead of a fast interceptor). Not sure if the mission in Jupiter's atmosphere counts, though, given how you get to deploy a bunch of turrets and only have to actually defend a single point from big, well-defined waves of attackers coming from a single direction.
Delenda Est delenda est.

(Yay gratuitous Latin.)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
**** yeah

 

Offline Damage

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
I love that analysis.  Wish I'd thought of it!


TEI doctrine may already have the "heavy bomber" role covered with the subspace missile strikes.  Their only requirement is accurate targeting information provided by AWACs spotters or tag-missiles.  What they lack in surgical precision they make up for in quantity--though we haven't seen the "minimum reload time" for these.  (I also do not want to see what the Shivan adapted response to that tactic would be.)
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: UEF Ships in FS2 Main Campaign
I would actually love to see the missile boat for the subspace strikes...
Are they even in Sol?
Does a Titan, Erebus provide it?
Or is it the Diomedes seconded for SOC missions?
Or a brand new multipurpose ship?