Author Topic: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom  (Read 7383 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
That wasn't Aesaar's point. If you reload a gun IRL, you move your head and look away from the action. Doing this ingame doesn't feel right because taking camera control away from the player in an FPS never does. The solution game developers have converged on is to use exaggerated movements that are visible no matter where the playeris looking.
Trying to serve both masters, staying "realistic" and being a good game, means compromising both approaches at not inconsiderable developer cost.

The solution SC seems to be using is to use real movements and at the same time not taking away camera control from the player. And there is nothing wrong with that. It looks great in first person, IMHO. As for third person, it is hard to judge because the only example of that I saw occurs in a dark room and is barely visible. But it also looks OK at first glance.

I just dont agree that there is a compromise here. It is possible to have best of both worlds, simply because thats how it is in reality, the devs just have to copy that behavior. I imagine it as those helmet camera combat footages that you can look up on youtube. That is how correctly done FPS should look like, while being both realistic and fun.

If complete realism is the goal, then little motions like that need to be in. If you're committed to not cheating in the ways that game devs normally do, then that has to be the case for every detail.

Complete realism is not the goal, more realism than the average FPS is.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Besides, its not like unified first and third person wasnt done before. As far as I know, Arma series does it too. It is very much possible to do, merely harder than the traditional approach.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
That wasn't Aesaar's point. If you reload a gun IRL, you move your head and look away from the action. Doing this ingame doesn't feel right because taking camera control away from the player in an FPS never does. The solution game developers have converged on is to use exaggerated movements that are visible no matter where the playeris looking.
Trying to serve both masters, staying "realistic" and being a good game, means compromising both approaches at not inconsiderable developer cost.

The solution SC seems to be using is to use real movements and at the same time not taking away camera control from the player. And there is nothing wrong with that. It looks great in first person, IMHO. As for third person, it is hard to judge because the only example of that I saw occurs in a dark room and is barely visible. But it also looks OK at first glance.

I just dont agree that there is a compromise here. It is possible to have best of both worlds, simply because thats how it is in reality, the devs just have to copy that behavior. I imagine it as those helmet camera combat footages that you can look up on youtube. That is how correctly done FPS should look like, while being both realistic and fun.
Reality isn't a video game.  Again, in reality, you move your head a lot when doing things like reloading a weapon.  You can't do that in a video game because no one wants to take camera control away from the player.  Which means you need to have the whole animation clearly visible, which means doing this weird reload dance at eye level when it would mostly be done at you waist IRL.  Which looks weird. 

Reality has ****ty gameplay.  People say they want more realism, but most of the time, they don't know what realism actually entails.  This is very, very common among SC fans.

And using ARMA 3 as an example of how feasible this is probably isn't the best idea.  Character animations in ARMA have never been very good, and that hasn't changed in ARMA 3.  Most look fine in 1st person, but in 3rd person, not so much.  Kinda supports my point, actually.  No one plays ARMA for the graphics.  I suppose it could be considered an achievement for SC to have worse animations than ARMA though.

Also ARMA 3 doesn't have headbobbing except when sprinting (and even then it's side to side motion, not up and down).  Rather than design a stabilization system to fix a problem that shouldn't exist, the devs and players are ok with the eyepoint being a few centimeters away from the actual eyes from time to time.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 01:05:34 pm by Aesaar »

 
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
I like the music in the demo. Especially the part when they leave the airlock at the beginning.

EDIT: I don't understand why unifying the first and third person views would be difficult. If you get the third-person walking animation right, wouldn't the first-person headbob come along for the ride?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 12:43:33 pm by GhylTarvoke »

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Reality isn't a video game.  Again, in reality, you move your head a lot when doing things like reloading a weapon.  You can't do that in a video game because no one wants to take camera control away from the player.  Which means you need to have the whole animation clearly visible, which means doing this weird reload dance at eye level when it would mostly be done at you waist IRL.  Which looks weird. 

Are you sure reloading is done at waist level? I am no professional soldier but I looked up some reloading videos on youtube and the gun hardly ever reaches near waist level. Or do you mean the magazine is at waist level? Why is this an issue? I am fine with the reload animation being partially cut off if you are looking too high to see it. If you really have to see it all for some reason, then look down.

There is only one right way to reload a weapon, and if you mocap it really well, it should look correct both in third and first person.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • Moderator
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
There is only one right way to reload a weapon, and if you mocap it really well, it should look correct both in third and first person.

The problem is that you mocap it well (read: realistically), it's not even actually visible from the viewpoint of the player and the way the player's viewpoint works in FPS games.  This automatically fails the most important part of having an animation in the first place, which is telling the player important information.

This is why Star Citizen is an awful game, or will be when it's released.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
In real life you have a ~wide field of view and access to proprioception. In a video game, you have a narrow field of view and no access to proprioception. In a video game, a good way to create a realistic sense of spatial awareness is to have different first person animations that move proprioceptive information into the visual field.

There is nothing inherently unrealistic about disjoint first/third person animations. Arguably, disjoint first person animations are more important.

Games are not reality. Reality is not inherently immersive. Creating Csikszentmihalyian flow is immersive. Good game design creates flow.

There are many right ways to design a video game. (I don't mind experimenting with more complex, distracting reload animations, but it probably won't look more realistic or fun in a game.)

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
In EVE Online, you have to perform hours of training and mind-numbing busywork in order to develop skills and make a living. All your accomplishments can be stripped from you in an instant of random violence. You exist at the mercy of enormous power blocs who operate on amoral rules of realpolitik.

This is extremely realistic and {immersive}.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Reality isn't a video game.  Again, in reality, you move your head a lot when doing things like reloading a weapon.  You can't do that in a video game because no one wants to take camera control away from the player.  Which means you need to have the whole animation clearly visible, which means doing this weird reload dance at eye level when it would mostly be done at you waist IRL.  Which looks weird. 

Are you sure reloading is done at waist level? I am no professional soldier but I looked up some reloading videos on youtube and the gun hardly ever reaches near waist level. Or do you mean the magazine is at waist level? Why is this an issue? I am fine with the reload animation being partially cut off if you are looking too high to see it. If you really have to see it all for some reason, then look down.

There is only one right way to reload a weapon, and if you mocap it really well, it should look correct both in third and first person.
Actually, I'm wrong about reloading magazine fed weapons.  It's perfectly doable at shoulder level.  Reloading, say, a shotgun at shoulder level is a lot harder.  Reloading a bullpup weapon while prone is probably best done on your back.  Belt fed weapons are a ***** to reload at shoulder level too.  It very much depends on the weapon and your stance.

You keep on saying that this is doable because real life does it.  That's completely idiotic reasoning.  Video games aren't real life.  You can't simulate real life when you're looking at it through a screen.  Real life never looks jerky because real life doesn't have preset animations.  That gameplay preview is just one long example of animations get interrupted by other animations.  It's pretty typical for 3rd person FPS models, but CR has seen fit to grace us with that **** in 1st person too.  You think it looks fine.  I don't.  I think that Star Marine demo is one of the worst looking examples of gunplay seen in a modern AAA FPS.  When ARMA has smoother animation than you do, something's gone very wrong.

Actually, the ARMA 3 comparison gets interesting.  ARMA 3 has gone with making 1st person animations look smooth, and as a result 3rd person animations look stiff.  SC, for some reason, has decided to make the 3rd person animations look good (which they might eventually), which results in 1st person animations looking jerky and exaggerated.

3rd person animations in 1st person look overdone.  1st person animations in 3rd person look underdone.  This, I think, is a fundamental issue related to perception of space in FPS game.  Specifically, FOV.  FPS games always have a narrower FOV than you do IRL.   There's no way to fix that except to make a VR system that wraps around your head (so not Oculus).  This means that animations that looked fine from the mocap model's point of view take up a lot more visual space on screen (exacerbated by the camera itself being zoomed in because of the narrower FOV), which makes the animation look exaggerated.  This is also the reason why the pistol ADS looks like the character's arm/shoulder is jammed in the player's face.

This is not something that can be fixed as long as we're using desktop screens.  This is probably the biggest reason everyone making FPS games "cheats" on animations.  To make up for the narrower FOV, 1st person animations look much better when the movements are underdone.  3rd person models don't have this restriction. 

The other reason is that rapid animation transitions, like going from sprint to a complete stop, looks like ****, and the only way to "fix" that would be to delay responses to allow for a transition animation to play.  Bad idea for obvious reasons.  The understated animations typically used for 1st person models are designed to not jerk as much.

TL;DR: They can't make these animations look good as long as FOV discrepancies between real life and FPS games exist.

EDIT: Battuta and Scotty beat me to it.


Tangentially related: I love how the Glaive sale is "clear the enemy waves in Arena Commander to earn the privilege of giving us 350$ for yet another nonexistent ship.  Hurry, only 1000 available".
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:12:53 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Not that I'm terribly interested in the overall discussion but some of the modern carbine doctrine I've seen advocates keeping the "workspace" up at eye level rather than un-shouldering the weapon, basically to minimize motions and keep the focus at the target.  I'd imagine such methodology would keep most of the weapon animation in FPS view without looking hilariously awkward in 3rd person.
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Not that I'm terribly interested in the overall discussion but some of the modern carbine doctrine I've seen advocates keeping the "workspace" up at eye level rather than un-shouldering the weapon, basically to minimize motions and keep the focus at the target.  I'd imagine such methodology would keep most of the weapon animation in FPS view without looking hilariously awkward in 3rd person.
Yeah, I should really have been more specific.  It's perfectly doable for most carbines and lighter assault rifles.  It gets more and more impractical the heavier the weapon is or the more involved reloading is.

 

Offline Sushi

  • Art Critic
  • 211
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Creating Csikszentmihalyian flow is immersive.

I think this is the most Battuta-y sentence I've ever read. <3

On the main topic: demo was impressive, and I think does a good job conveying the "feel" that they're going for. I'm not terribly confident in their ability to make an open-world MMO game that works well. I am, however, optimistic that they can pull off the single-player Squadron 42 with some really cool setpieces and mixed FPS/flying sequences.

I don't think the current space combat OR their FPS stuff is terribly compelling on its own, but I think successfully mixing them will bring something fun and novel to the table.

 
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
Nah, it's a creative dead end. Combining a space sim and an FPS could be compelling, but you'd have to invest a lot of work into the interaction between the two components. CIG have just split them off into separate teams and seem to be planning to glue them together later.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • Moderator
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
I'm also imagining how utterly stupid and immersion killing it is to be conducting a boarding action on an enemy ship and that one asshole on your team blow it up anyway and suddenly 10-30 people just wasted the last few minutes of their lives and gameplay doing something that literally did not mean a single goddamn thing.

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
I'm also imagining how utterly stupid and immersion killing it is to be conducting a boarding action on an enemy ship and that one asshole on your team blow it up anyway and suddenly 10-30 people just wasted the last few minutes of their lives and gameplay doing something that literally did not mean a single goddamn thing.

"Meaning" in games = Acquiring a space ship/things/items/always winning ???

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • Moderator
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
No, and you know that's not what I meant.  If the ship you're on during a boarding action gets blown up in the middle of the action, what was the ****ing point?  There is no win or lose condition, there's no reason to go for a boarding action, there's just a bunch of wasted time.

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
No, and you know that's not what I meant.  If the ship you're on during a boarding action gets blown up in the middle of the action, what was the ****ing point?  There is no win or lose condition, there's no reason to go for a boarding action, there's just a bunch of wasted time.

What s the difference to the match timer running out in a traditional round of team vs team fps?


/shrugs. In any case I'd doubt boarding would be all that common ... but if one is serious about walking around planets (and having the ability to shoot people in the face) in a Space Sim, one needs some kind of FPS interface for that Space Sim. /shrugs

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
No, and you know that's not what I meant.  If the ship you're on during a boarding action gets blown up in the middle of the action, what was the ****ing point?  There is no win or lose condition, there's no reason to go for a boarding action, there's just a bunch of wasted time.

What s the difference to the match timer running out in a traditional round of team vs team fps?

Obviously the fact that the timer doesn't have malicious intent.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline 666maslo666

  • 28
  • Artificial Neural Network
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
I'm also imagining how utterly stupid and immersion killing it is to be conducting a boarding action on an enemy ship and that one asshole on your team blow it up anyway and suddenly 10-30 people just wasted the last few minutes of their lives and gameplay doing something that literally did not mean a single goddamn thing.

Seems not very different to games with friendly fire and powerful area of effect weapons. Its not a problem. If your team member is so incompetent as to blow up a ship while others of his team are on it, choose a better buddy. And occasional friendly fire is certainly not immersion killing, it happens in reality surprisingly often.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Re: Star Citizen multi-crew demo from Gamescom
And occasional friendly fire is certainly not immersion killing, it happens in reality surprisingly often.

Games are not reality. Reality is not inherently immersive. Creating Csikszentmihalyian flow is immersive. Good game design creates flow.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.