Author Topic: Say no to Sexbot 9000  (Read 18313 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Luis was trying to claim that it was because of the fact that men are more visually stimulated that the industry is male dominated. If more men are reading erotica than women, that argument is critically flawed regardless of the ratio of porn : erotica. Cause the argument that women as a whole like imagining rather than seeing is damaged if more men are imagining sex then women. You can argue that of the men and women who like porn of any kind, the men are more visually stimulated, but you've already reduced the sample to a smaller group than all men and all women.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
I still am baffled at your idea that men read more erotica than women. It's flat out untrue. Erotic novels are dominated by the female market.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Did you not get the point about Penthouse letters and sexts? Men simply prefer bite-size erotica.

That analysis is so ****ed up I can't even

MY analysis is ****ed up? Nevermind that your analysis is so inherently sexist that if applied to any other field it would be immediately obvious.

Not many women playing computer games? Well that's just cause men are visually oriented. Women prefer to read a book.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
That's silly. Of course it is sexist (if you dare to look the definition of "sexist" in the dictionary), for it assumes the sexes are different. And while we can all agree they share more than they differ from, well, in terms of the actual sexual characteristics, they are indeed the most disparate. Including fantasies. Your analysis that the whole rape fantasy denotes embarassment and guilt is not even wrong, it's ludicrous and I hope you talk yourself out of it.

To decry a statement as "sexist" has no bearing on the truth of it. That much should be simple to state. Women simply regard sex in a very different manner than men, and both the porn markets and the erotica markets attest to this reality. Neither approaches to sex are "better" or "worse", they're just different. And mostly, and fortunately, they are more or less compatible with each other. Which is the best we can really hope for.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Do you realise that you would set feminism back by at least a decade if everyone bought that argument? Films with a strong female protagonist? We don't make those cause if they would make money, surely someone would have done it by now. The fact that no one wants to see a Wonder Woman film isn't cause we can't write a good female hero, it's cause men and women are different and the fact that a female superhero film wouldn't make much money attests to this reality.

EDIT : Luis, you do realise that despite your claims that men and women approach sex differently around 30% of visitors to the mainstream free porn sites are women, right?

Your analysis that the whole rape fantasy denotes embarassment and guilt is not even wrong, it's ludicrous and I hope you talk yourself out of it.

Not for all women with rape fantasies. But I will contend that it does account for part of the reason why it is higher amongst women. I'll admit that I didn't qualify my statement enough and I committed your error of sounding like I was trying to claim something was absolutely the cause rather than part of a very complex cause.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 10:55:12 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Perhaps take a deep breath and realise that I have made none of those arguments at all, and your attempt to glue this issue with others which have absolutely different causes and issues with them (and so many different numbers in them, btw), is just something that... sigh.

We *could* go there, but let's not (do boys like superheros while girls like romance movies?). The fact that a superhero movie costs 300 million + dollars to make is not just a factoid here, it's the number one reason why most of the time, the hero is a male. The superheromoviemaking industry is risk aversed, which is something that simply *does not exist* in a commoditised porn market that has millions of different sources. Both markets couldn't be more different.

And, breathe again to let the following paragraph sink in, at least, think about what I'm about to say.

Imagine a truly equal society, wherein each gender would feel great in it, their desires well represented in the wider society, media, economy. Where their sexual desires would be free from guilt, a healthy attitude to sex would be the rule, not the exception. Now imagine that there's not any physical law that would prevent that in this society, men would have slightly different fetiches and fantasies, slightly different desires on what to consume in media, in porn, etc. than women would. In such a society, things would *look* different. Perhaps, just perhaps, visual romanceless porn would be a market mostly for men, perhaps a less visual intense, more romance-ish porn would be the market dominated by women consumers. Perhaps, just perhaps, men would love to watch superhero movies more than women do. And on and on and on.

So given that amazing society described above, and given how disparate those numbers would be, would you look at that and say "My, that's an atrocious society, these people have different tastes and products are catered to different genders in different ways! We can't have that, that's totally SEXIST!", or would you simply state, "yeah, this is what I expected in a non-androgynous society".


e:
EDIT : Luis, you do realise that despite your claims that men and women approach sex differently around 30% of visitors to the mainstream free porn sites are women, right?

Keep repeating the same mistake you have been doing for the past 10, 20 comments by now. I'm really tired of beating that **** out, Karajorma. ****ing hell. I'm NOT going to repeat myself, so kindly read what I've already written on this angle? FWIW, let's keep in mind that if 30% of visitors are women, that means 70% are men. OK? Those numbers. Are. Different.

Quote
I'll admit that I didn't qualify my statement enough and I committed your error of sounding like I was trying to claim something was absolutely the cause rather than part of a very complex cause.

Why make these passive aggressive comments? Did it add anything here? And where, oh where, did I state that the simple fact that men are more visually aroused than women meant that other factors were simply non-existent? I'm not the one claiming both sexes must conform to a single criteria and are more or less equal in all respects and if the market doesn't represent this, then it's wrong in some way or other, without any kind of reasonable justification for that at all.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 11:11:57 am by Luis Dias »

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
For someone who is telling me to take a deep breath you are doing an amazing job of strawmaning my arguments. Forget your ideal world. In THIS world 30% of the visitors to porn sites are female. How does that fit in with your claim that women do not like that kind of porn hugely more than men?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
I am indeed taking deep breaths, for my head is already in pain from all the facedesks I've victimised it with....

I'm even having trouble not writing this in the most sarcastic way possible. I think I can do it. Ok. Here it goes, earnestly, nicest as possible: 30% is not 70%, which means it's not the same. There. Pheww. Made it.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
And where, oh where, did I state that the simple fact that men are more visually aroused than women meant that other factors were simply non-existent?

It falls flat especially when I placed exactly those caveats. NG says, "why assume this", it's not an assumption, it's basically the null hypothesis for all of history and all of culture. If women were as aroused as men are, visually, then the horny magazines women bought would be as filled with well muscled men as the other gender's is filled with boobed women, etc. It's not and all of the industry knows this: women's erotica market goes a lot more through novellas, stories and romances. It's less visual. This has hundreds of years of history behind it.

Right there. You've flat out stated that if women were as visually aroused as men are the entire erotica for women market would be movies and videos and not novels.

I quote the 30% statistic because you keep making the same ****ing error over and over again. You are assuming all women like erotica. Your 70% =/= 30% headdesk only works if as many women as men read, listen to or watch erotica. If less women enjoy erotica then those figures could be equal. 100% of men who like erotica watch porn and 100% of women. It's nothing to do with visual stimulation and everything to do with how many of each sex like to do something other than sex or masturbation that makes them horny. That's why I've asked you for a citation repeatedly because YOU HAVE NOT PROVED that 100% of women like erotica!
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
I've had enough of you lying about what I'm saying. I've stated from my very first foray into this conversation that I fully agree women also see porn, that the differences are not absolute, they are relative. Anyone reading my comments with good faith would have easily spotted it.

You, apparently, are not reading anything I say in good faith, so why bother continuing this.

 
Luis, if you can't find a more reliable source than 'common sense' and 'what I reckon' for your assertions about gender and preferences of erotica will you kindly just shut up about it.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I've had enough of you lying about what I'm saying. I've stated from my very first foray into this conversation that I fully agree women also see porn, that the differences are not absolute, they are relative. Anyone reading my comments with good faith would have easily spotted it.

You, apparently, are not reading anything I say in good faith, so why bother continuing this.

Ahhh. I was wondering when this particular get out of jail card would come into play.

Re-read my last comment Luis. Nowhere did I say you claimed women didn't watch porn. And I challenge you to show where I did.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
PH, I posted more sources than anyone else in here, so kindly take your advice elsewhere.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
that the differences are not absolute, they are relative.

Thanks, bye.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
that the differences are not absolute, they are relative.

Thanks, bye.

That's not my comment, Luis. And I find it disingenuous that having accused me of a bad faith argument you then quote yourself from a post made after mine to somehow prove yourself correct.

As I've pointed out if all men and women who like erotica also like porn you can't claim that men are more visually stimulated. Everyone who likes erotica is visually stimulated, putting the cause of the difference there is incorrect. I really don't know how to explain it any better Luis. NGTM-1R basically claimed he had seen studies that say the same thing I'm saying over and over again, women who like erotica watch porn and are as visually stimulated as men. The difference in numbers of people watching porn has a different cause.

It's like saying if 50% of women and 100% of men drive, men are worse drivers because there were 200 male crashes and only 100 women. What you have done this entire thread is look at the number of crashes and say men are worse, more crashes = worse. Not once have you attempted to look at the number of drivers despite me practically shouting at you to do so. And now you're trying to claim I've misrepresented your argument as saying that women don't crash at all and accused me of bad faith because of that idiotic assumption. Stop. Take a deep breath and try to actually read what I am saying.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 12:00:38 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
I still am baffled at your idea that men read more erotica than women. It's flat out untrue. Erotic novels are dominated by the female market.

If you want to construe things that narrowly, sure, but if you're arguing that written erotica only counts if it's an erotic novel, you've already lost several dozen plots.

PH, I posted more sources than anyone else in here, so kindly take your advice elsewhere.

You've posted zero sources on this discussion. I would gladly post sources to illustrate my point, but considering my point is the existence of visual porn for females has been a growth industry (and the porn-for-men industry has been...relatively static, arguably even contracted; who's left of the 2005 or 2010 crowds? Brazzers is still around, not sure about anyone else) I'm pretty sure I'd get banned for posting actual examples.

I'll make it pretty simple though: Peter North or Lexington Steele didn't make their careers on shooting for guys. To us, they're all bad camera angles and ego. The growth of gay porn (you can find it on practically any video/pic aggregation site) from the mid-90s to today is not solely attributable to people whose orientation is being portrayed. The idea that someone would make a career out of shooting lesbian porn for lesbians was ridiculous as late as 2010, but the change in toning the scenes that's crept over the girl-girl video market in the last five years happened for a reason.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Well I definitely wouldn't mind seeing any studies on differences between men and women watching porn. Everything I've seen is either behind a paywall or has a ridiculously low sample size.

Although I did find this study which claimed men look more at the faces, women look more at the genitals (or clothes, if they are on the pill) pretty interesting.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 09:17:33 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
maybe post secondary sources?
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
Actually, would it be okay when you post NSFW content if you *CLEARLY* mark it as such? Or not straight up link it (to prevent accidental misclicks) but just mentoin it by name? I can get there being a rule for not linking to porn for hte sake of linking to porn, but we're already discussing a sexbot and website of the company that makes it has been brought up already so...

  

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
jeez, just someone post it and if a mod doesn't like it they can remove it, it's clearly in good faith at this point.
maybe break the url so it's non-clickable.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together