[jr2]

Well, aren't the Palestinians immigrants who got kicked out of Jordan?

http://middleeast.about.com/od/jordan/a/jordan-black-september.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-harris/palestinians-and-double-s_b_3825379.html

[Dragon]

Not really. It is true many Palestinians lived in Jordan, but Israel took over a fair bit of Jordanian land early on (indeed, I often wondered why can't they just hand off the West Bank to Jordan and let the king sort it out. The locals would surely feel better as Jordanians). Before Israel, pretty much the whole territory it now takes up was called "Mandatory Palestine" and was a British territory (or "mandate"). Jordanian did kick out the PLO, but they ended up in Lebanon as well. Palestinians are the original Arabian inhabitants of the region, not only parts.

well, at this point there really are not that many people on the planet who were anywhere before the state of Israel existed.

Not really. The state of Israel is only 66 years old. There are quite a few people older than that on the planet. It's still very well a living memory. It is certainly not a new country anymore, but it's still fairly young. Not that the nearby states are that much older (Jordan gained independence in 1923), but for most Israelis, their grandparents were born in another country, while Arabs' grandfathers and great-grandfathers were born there as well, just under Ottoman boot.

[karajorma]

If you start going on historical claims, I've already explained once a while back how that results in you having to give Israel back.....to the Spanish.



If you don't remember it basically dates back to them being descendants of the Carthaginians and therefore the Phoenicians who were themselves Caanites. Therefore even by the Bible their claim pre-dates the Jews.

[Sandwich]

Not to rain on your historical who's-older-than-whom parade, but how does any of that give people the right to go out and stab and shoot and murder civilians??

(note that I fully include those few recent Jewish "price-tag" vengeance attacks, as well as that Jewish ultra-orthodox guy who attacked the gay pride parade; much as I may deplore the gay's apparent need to flaunt their sexual orientation in everybody's faces, that certainly doesn't mean they should be assaulted or attacked)

The immediate cause of the current escalation are the lies being spewed by the various Muslim clerics, news sources, and the Palestinian leadership. Lies that Israel is changing the "status quo" on the Temple Mount (a status quo which, by the way, forbids Jews from praying on the Temple Mount). Lies that Jews are apes and pigs and what have you. And most recently, lies that Israel "executed" this 13-year-old terrorist:

Doesn't look very executed to me, but what do I know. Perhaps its Photoshopped.

By the way, this is the same kind of double-standards that the world dumped on Israel's head last summer, during the Gaza war.

(btw, is that Vin Diesel asking those quetions?)

Holding Israel accountable to an impossibly high standard that they themselves cannot even attain in a similar situation, and at the same time, ignoring the blatant violations of said standard by other nations in the region. Are the Muslims and/or Arabs so primitive and/or uncivilized in your eyes that you simply don't expectdemand the same standards from them as you do from Israel?

[karajorma]

Not to rain on your historical who's-older-than-whom parade, but how does any of that give people the right to go out and stab and shoot and murder civilians??

It doesn't. My point was that historical claims over who owns the land are idiotic bull**** that result in a ridiculous winner and anyone who argues them on either side should shut the **** up and deal with the actual issue going on.


Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.

[Bobboau]

well, they are oppressed you see, that means they are allowed to do anything with impunity and can do no wrong. because the more oppressed you are the better a minority you are.

[Grizzly]

Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.

Does this count?

[666maslo666]

Are the Muslims and/or Arabs so primitive and/or uncivilized in your eyes that you simply don't expectdemand the same standards from them as you do from Israel?

Yes.

In addition to that, my opinion is that there will be no peace until this whole area is divided based on current ethnic composition, Kosovo style, and interaction between Arabs and Israelis will be limited. History proves that you cannot live together peacefully. Good fences make good neighbours.

[Dragon]

Exactly. They're actually both equally uncivilized, but it's the Israelis that get weapons and financial assistance from the US and NATO. They have nukes, modern weapons and superior technology. Therefore, the Israelis and their government need to be held to a higher standard. They may act like a 3rd world country at times, but are always armed like a 1st world one.

Dividing the region Kosovo-style needs to happen, whether Israelis like it or not. They need a strong king (democracy was tried in PA and look where it ended up), their own borders, their own laws and their own misfortunes. It doesn't matter if it isn't better than what they have now, what matters is that it needs to be theirs. Israel is someone else's country and it's big on not letting Arabs forget that. Even having Jordan annex Palestine would be better than what we have now (Jordan being pretty level-headed, Arab and with strong government).

Basically, let's make it official. Next person to make a historical claim to the land gets thrown out of this thread.

Says someone not from a country that spent its recent history fighting for its national identity. This stuff matters, there's a clear distinction between a claim that is 60 years old and one that is 600 years old. Elsewhere in the world (in a certain 2nd world country in the eastern Europe), property taken during WWII and after is often being returned to its original owners or their descendants. Israel is doing the very same thing Nazis and Commies used to. You can't just move people around against their will and expect them not to complain.

[Phantom Hoover]

They need a strong king

c'mon mate you were doing such a good job of not saying dumb ****

[Bobboau]

I think Jordan taking over most of the territory would be a good move honestly.

[Nemesis6]

From what I understand, this is all directly attributable to the head of the PA, Mahmoud Abbas, spreading the message that they need to do this to... stop the Israelis from taking the temple mount? Some dumb **** in that direction.

[Bobboau]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/world/middleeast/palestinians-israel-west-bank-violence.html

well, that's certainly going to help settle things down.

[Bobboau]

Good fences make good neighbours.

Israel tried that, google "Apartheid Wall"

Therefore, the Israelis and their government need to be held to a higher standard. They may act like a 3rd world country at times, but are always armed like a 1st world one.

because people just become immune to getting upset that their kids are being murdered because they can wipe out the killers. having this double standard is only going to make the situation worse. Palestine doesn't get the blood washed off their hands because they are brown any more than Israel does because they are rich.

[666maslo666]

Israel tried that, google "Apartheid Wall"

Googled it, looks like it is an effective solution. I am growing increasingly convinced that a comprehensive fence system could be one way to solve this crisis once and for all. Of course, it would probably have to follow ethnic lines, too. And it would inevitably anger some people on both sides of this conflict because of perceived loss of land. But oh well, you can never please everyone..

[Bobboau]

you'd think so, but I remember when that went up and everyone was attacking them for it.

[Turambar]

Israel tried that, google "Apartheid Wall"

Googled it, looks like it is an effective solution. I am growing increasingly convinced that a comprehensive fence system could be one way to solve this crisis once and for all. Of course, it would probably have to follow ethnic lines, too. And it would inevitably anger some people on both sides of this conflict because of perceived loss of land. But oh well, you can never please everyone..

So a place becomes yours when you put your people on it and then build a fence around it.  I can see why the US would be nervous about saying that's not the case.

[Bobboau]

just to be clear, is it your position that Israel is not Israel's place?

[Grizzly]

you'd think so, but I remember when that went up and everyone was attacking them for it.

Something something THE WALL WAS BUILD INSIDE PALESTENIAN TERRITORY something something.

[Bobboau]

which is the reason why people call it the Apartheid Wall, and not the Landgrab Wall.