[Luis Dias]

Stop repeating what I say!

[AdmiralRalwood]

machete order, people. not hatchet

Whoops, sorry. I was tired and on my phone.

[NGTM-1R]

"The prequels are bad" is pretty much the same as "Nickleback sucks" at this point.  Yes, you're SO above such drivel.  Who in their right mind would like this? Certainly not me, because I want to be cool like everyone else.

To which I say, grow the **** up.  I have watched the prequels many times and enjoyed them.  "Not as good as" is WAY different than "bad."

I am genuinely sorry that you have incredibly poor taste, but there are so many obviously poor choices made in the prequels that your position is indefensible. On nearly every level from the script to the aesthetic choices their decisions are poor in both the context of the prequels as an internally contained series and in the context of the prequels as, y'know, prequels. The only thing holding them together is their use of their vast budgets to deliver relatively impressive visuals and decent acting in spite of themselves.

(Even then, I'd argue the big fleet action shots of the prequels were trumped by DS9's Sacrifice of Angels in '97, with a fraction of the budget and effects team.)

[Phantom Hoover]

Like, the Star Wars formula wasn't exactly magic. It was a big showy sci-fi throwback built explicitly on Campbell's structure of the monomyth, and it pulled that off well enough to be a runaway classic. Then the prequels come along and inexplicably they're all about this big ensemble cast with a ton of boring galactic politics and murky characters and arcs. It's not that they're 'not as good as' the original trilogy, it's that they only counted as Star Wars films because of the licensing rights.

[Damage]

I had a lot of fun in the 90's getting to watch Star Wars (albeit altered, edited, and changed) in the theaters.  It was an experience and it was FUN.  I also had a lot of fun later waiting with baited breath for Episode I--which was entertaining, and I'll just leave it at that.  I do remember feeling kinda jaded by the time Episode 3 rolled around.  This time, I'm kind of excited again, and it FEELS right.  It looks right.

But to tell you the truth, I'm actually way more excited to see my kids' reaction to this, and it's going to be really fun to get to take them with me and enjoy something together.  (Even if they're a little young to really get the plot details.)

[Sushi]

But to tell you the truth, I'm actually way more excited to see my kids' reaction to this, and it's going to be really fun to get to take them with me and enjoy something together.  (Even if they're a little young to really get the plot details.)

I get exactly where you're coming from. I'd be right with you if my kids were just a *few* years older.

[karajorma]

The reason why I can't recommend the prequels is quite simple. It's not just the bad direction, uninspiring overuse of CGI or any of the myriad reasons quoted. It's the simple fact that the entire point of all 3 prequels is to chart the fall of Anakin Skywalker and his conversion into Darth Vader. This is something the films completely fails at. In Return of the Jedi it is the Emperor's hubris that eventually leads to his downfall. He believes that he can turn any Jedi to the Dark Side, even a hero like Luke Skywalker, with fairly basic methods. His attempt to tempt Skywalker to the Dark Side eventually puts Luke in a position to redeem his father and kill the Emperor. So we never actually see what it would take to turn someone to the Dark Side and before the prequels came out, most of us would have thought it would be interesting to see how it would work on a good Jedi. And it would be especially interesting to see how it happened to Vader.


But what did we get in the prequels? Possibly the least interesting and least internally consistent seduction to the Dark Side we could have ever gotten. The idea that Anakin would turn to the Dark Side in order to save his unborn child was a good one. Pity it was handled in such a hamfisted way that it doesn't ring true then. And if the central premise of the film is as poor as the one in this film, I'd rather recommend people watch a good film than slog through such bad movies.

[Scotty]

The thing about Anakin is that he was never a good Jedi.  If there was one thing Episode II did with any sort of effectiveness (if not subtlety) it was to establish that Anakin A) put a huge emphasis on close personal relationships and B) wasn't the most stable individual.  His mother is killed, and he slaughters an entire village of sand people in a murderous rage.  In Episode III we see him visibly frustrated by perceived disrespect from the Jedi Council - whether it's deserved or not is wholly irrelevant.  When confronted with a situation in which he must choose between the close personal relationship that he knows to be 'evil' but who has shown him the attention and respect he believes he deserves, and the distant, disdainful, 'good' Jedi, his choice is obvious, reflexive even.

This is Anakin's point of no return, and he knows this implicitly.  He is fully committed.  He knows, very well, that he is taking the 'evil' path, and his self-loathing is evident even through Christensen's woodblock acting.  When he confronts Padme after the Jedi Temple, when she reveals that Obi-wan has been there, his self-loathing and doubt manifests as a suspicion that she and Obi-wan are having an affair (there's a deleted scene for this, I think).  The violations of trust never stop.  Suddenly his loyalties, those that remain, are torn between three close personal bonds; his loyalty to Palpatine, his marriage to Padme, and his relationship to Obi-wan.

When Padme arrives on Mustafar, and Obi-wan has stowed away on board, Obi-wan unwittingly signs Padme's death warrant.  The suspicion of an affair is confirmed, as far as Anakin is concerned.  The bonds are shattered irrevocably.  In the ashes of his former life, he still has one thing: Palpatine.  He submits to the Dark Side in full, without reservation.

Episode II and III suck for a multitude of reasons, but Anakin's journey to the Dark Side is probably one of the better parts of it.  The politics of the Clone Wars are interesting on their own, but distract too much from Anakin's transformation, focusing too much on the minutiae of the battles and far too little on what actually made the Clone Wars interesting.  Overuse of CGI; closely tied to actors' inability to relate to the environments they're supposed to be inhabiting; ridiculous lightsaber antics; pointless diversions from the good parts of the story (General Grievous exists... why, exactly?  He's a "cool villain", and Utapau is a set-piece for his bossfight with Obi-wan.); and cringe-worthy dialogue forcing an unrelatable love story among them.

[karajorma]

I understand all you're saying, I just don't think it was done very well. I'll agree that Anakin's journey is the best part of the film, but is still doesn't make it actually good. It's still pretty mediocre. There are so many better ways Anakin's fall could have been handled. What were given simply doesn't fit with Obi-Wan's speech in A New Hope. What I expected to see in the prequels was Obi-Wan make subtle mistakes that resulted in Anakin's incomplete training. That training should have then left him vulnerable to the Dark Side.

But we don't see that in the films. Anakin was always a bad egg. He was always a spoiled brat. It wasn't Obi-Wan who made a mistake in believing he could train Anakin as well as Yoda. The mistake was training him at all. Now if episode II had established that Anakin's personal relationships and instability were due to Obi-Wan, I might have let that pass, but they fail at that. Anakin was always kind of a dick, right from the start.

I agree that making it about personal relationships was the key. But they shouldn't have bothered with that weird "Love is forbidden, hidden marriage" nonsense. It's not like the extended universe doesn't have Jedi falling in love. Instead I would have had Anakin placed in a situation where he had to do something evil in order to save his friends. You know, letting an innocent die in order to save his friends. After it worked, Anakin would continue to take the easier way out until eventually he goes full on evil. That would have fit in with the emperor trying a similar trick with Luke. Putting him in a situation where the easy way out would save his friends.

My problem is also with the fact that Obi-Wan describes Anakin as being a good friend, someone who he looks back on with fond memories. We don't see that much in the prequels. We're told they are friends but it doesn't really come over on camera very well at all. At best he regards Anakin as an annoying student he has to teach. Looking at the prequels, would you honestly look back at Anakin as a good friend?

Basically, my problem is that nothing in the prequels really rings true as being realistic. Yeah, with a better script and actors you could have sold the storyline Lucas wrote, I can see that. But even then it wasn't the best way to go. So when the central premise, the entire reason for even having 3 prequel films, is handled in such a bad fashion, why would I recommend seeing them?

[StarSlayer]

I always felt it would have been better to stage the films starting in the early stages of the Clone Wars.  Obi Wan/Padme/Liam Neason have their Republic star destroyer intercepted and shot down over Tatooine while on some diplomatic mission(imagine that juxtaposition of the fly over from ANH).  There they meet a twenty something Anakin who has major force potential.  Over the course of the film Anakin and Obi Wan cement their friendship, sparks fly with Padme(now that they are the same age) and Anakin's parents/community are killed leaving him with a "power to save everyone" complex.  By the end Darth Maul is established as the Dragon for subsequent films, Obi Wan demands to recruit and teach Anakin despite his age and there is a relationship foundation with Padme.

With the following films we have Anakin, a Jedi trained in a time of warfare starting as a young man instead of a malleable child.  He's a likable, fundamentally good man but plays it fast and loose and more pragmatically than a Jedi should, his quilt over his parents continues to drive him to be as powerful as possible and it is only compounded as losses mount during the war.  This causes friction with some portions of the Council and its Obi Wan who both tempers Anakin's excesses and acts as the mediator with the higher ups.  Because of their friendship he turns a blind eye to some of the warning signs with Anakin rather than confronting and rectifying those flaws.  Anakin's relationship with Padme continues to blossom and his rivalry with Maul continues. 

By the third film the war has ravaged much of the galaxy leading the citizens desperate for a strong stable government when Palpatine makes his play.  Palpatine splits Anakin and Obi Wan up so that when Anakin has his final showdown with Maul he doesn't have his friend to keep him grounded.  Anakin needs to dip into the dark side to actually beat Maul and the Jedi who are with him see it and attempt to apprehend him.  Instead of being able to take a step back from the precipice the other Jedi cause the situation to spiral out of control.  Without Obi Wan Anakin is driven into Palpatine's hands who offers an easy route to power and the promise of a secure galaxy to Anakin.  Purge happens, war ends and New Order Established.  Anakin has his climatic confrontation with Obi Wan and ends up in the suit.  Anakin never knows Padme is pregnant and she goes into hiding were she later has the twins and passes from something not as stupid as sadness.

I think this would keep some of the framework of the Prequels while establishing a better transition for Anakin, a good man placed in an untenable position by subtle manipulations by Palpatine and some stupid decisions by the Jedi Order.

[Droid803]

I think that's going to become my new headcanon now. Thanks!

[Scotty]

I'd like to take a moment to mention that I despise the term "headcanon" and all the baggage that goes with it.

[Cyborg17]

That really is an excellent framework.

[Mongoose]

I always felt it would have been better to stage the films starting in the early stages of the Clone Wars.  Obi Wan/Padme/Liam Neason have their Republic star destroyer intercepted and shot down over Tatooine while on some diplomatic mission(imagine that juxtaposition of the fly over from ANH).  There they meet a twenty something Anakin who has major force potential.  Over the course of the film Anakin and Obi Wan cement their friendship, sparks fly with Padme(now that they are the same age) and Anakin's parents/community are killed leaving him with a "power to save everyone" complex.  By the end Darth Maul is established as the Dragon for subsequent films, Obi Wan demands to recruit and teach Anakin despite his age and there is a relationship foundation with Padme.

With the following films we have Anakin, a Jedi trained in a time of warfare starting as a young man instead of a malleable child.  He's a likable, fundamentally good man but plays it fast and loose and more pragmatically than a Jedi should, his quilt over his parents continues to drive him to be as powerful as possible and it is only compounded as losses mount during the war.  This causes friction with some portions of the Council and its Obi Wan who both tempers Anakin's excesses and acts as the mediator with the higher ups.  Because of their friendship he turns a blind eye to some of the warning signs with Anakin rather than confronting and rectifying those flaws.  Anakin's relationship with Padme continues to blossom and his rivalry with Maul continues. 

By the third film the war has ravaged much of the galaxy leading the citizens desperate for a strong stable government when Palpatine makes his play.  Palpatine splits Anakin and Obi Wan up so that when Anakin has his final showdown with Maul he doesn't have his friend to keep him grounded.  Anakin needs to dip into the dark side to actually beat Maul and the Jedi who are with him see it and attempt to apprehend him.  Instead of being able to take a step back from the precipice the other Jedi cause the situation to spiral out of control.  Without Obi Wan Anakin is driven into Palpatine's hands who offers an easy route to power and the promise of a secure galaxy to Anakin.  Purge happens, war ends and New Order Established.  Anakin has his climatic confrontation with Obi Wan and ends up in the suit.  Anakin never knows Padme is pregnant and she goes into hiding were she later has the twins and passes from something not as stupid as sadness.

I think this would keep some of the framework of the Prequels while establishing a better transition for Anakin, a good man placed in an untenable position by subtle manipulations by Palpatine and some stupid decisions by the Jedi Order.

Get this man a flying DeLorean and several hundred million dollars.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah, that would work. The trick would be to have the final showdown between Maul / Palpatine - Anakin as a kind of a mirror image to how Luke resolved the situation.

We, as audiences, needed to be sympathetic to Anakin. The galaxy would need to be at stake. The path to the Dark Side should be obvious, but not juvenile or "emo-****". It should be the result of necessity. One thing I'd add to your story would be that he would still believe he would be in control despite sliding towards the Dark Side. But Maul is powerful. He can't kill him without using a "weapon of mass destruction". Obi Wan realises what he's about to do but it's too late: he kills millions and hundreds of Jedis with it. He killed Maul, and why is Obi Wan so pissed off at him, he just destroyed the Sith. "You blithering idiots with all your honorable ideas, you would get him away again!"

But of course, he's not the only one, Palpatine is still to be destroyed. Obi Wan and friends realise they have to shackle Anakin, he's on the verge of becoming a Sith himself! They try to fight him and arrest him. Obi Wan, Yoda, etc. attempt to attack Palpatine. Anakin does not believe in their tactics. They are weak. They are powerless. They are slow and will stop at anything. A plan of attack is set in motion, but Anakin flees. He flees with help. He knows how to bloody end the Emperor and he will kill Jedis who try to stop him in his tracks.

Obi Wan et co are busy doing their plans when they witness Anakin going rogue. While the Emperor was about to be destroyed, he played his last card: Anakin himself. After all, he was the one who had helped him escape. Anakin fights Obi Wan and loses, but the distraction enables the Emperor to win the war. The journey to the Dark Side is pretty much complete. I am missing some key elements here, but I agree, Palpatine does convince Anakin that this is the best way: Peace will be achieved without these hesitant do-gooders who will stop at anything instead of solving the real problems that afflict the Galaxy. Peace will be achieved by people like Palpatine. And Vader.

[karajorma]

See the nice thing about that plot line is that it fits consistently with Vader's claim to Luke. "You don't know the power of the Dark Side."

Something like that shows that the Dark Side allows you to get **** done that you couldn't do with only the Light Side. Instead in the prequels it is treated like "pick a bonus feat for your RPG character" and everyone goes "Hmmmmm. Force Lightning seems to be the best of the possible skills, I'll choose that one"

[Rodo]

HYYYYYPEEEEE.
Damn, have no remaining nails to bite. Damn.
Damn.

[Luis Dias]

See the nice thing about that plot line is that it fits consistently with Vader's claim to Luke. "You don't know the power of the Dark Side."

Something like that shows that the Dark Side allows you to get **** done that you couldn't do with only the Light Side. Instead in the prequels it is treated like "pick a bonus feat for your RPG character" and everyone goes "Hmmmmm. Force Lightning seems to be the best of the possible skills, I'll choose that one"

This was obvious in the original trilogy. It was immediately caught by everyone from age 5 to 80 that the problem was morality itself, not one of "Do me has lightning power or do me has phantom-after-dying power?"

[StarSlayer]

Funny story my first time playing through KoTOR I kept my character in Calo Nord's body armor and focused all my XP on melee and the select few Force Powers that could be utilized in armor, which I think pretty much amounted to Push and Leap?  So there I was merrily double bladed lightsabering my way through the game with my melee monster character until the showdown with Malak on the Star Forge.  You need to use your fancy Force Powers to stop him from regenerating from the tube people...


Um, Sithspawn? 

I ended up having to do it the hard way and Lightsaber duel him for like half an hour till he ran out of coma Jedi to Force Suck HP from.

[karajorma]

This was obvious in the original trilogy.

Yep, which made it so sickening that the prequels ****ed it up.

One of the minor things the Red Letter Media reviews points out nicely is that in RotJ when the emperor tortures Luke with force lightning it's not cause he's stuck all his ability points in Force (evil lightning) but that he could have done all kinds of things with the force like just stopping Luke's heart or whatever. He just picked something a bit showy cause it looked cool.

But in the prequels suddenly force lighning is just something you get once you've got enough levels in Sith. Never mind that it technically makes Dooku more powerful than Vader.

To be honest, Dooku turning out to be a Sith was actually the most disappointing thing in the second prequel. The rest of the film was **** but after Phantom Menace, that wasn't a huge surprise. But for one short moment it did look like Lucas was about to do something interesting with the plot. I would have loved to have had his whole separatist movement actually not be bad guys, just guys who didn't want to stay part of the republic cause they saw trouble coming. It would have given Anakin the backdrop of a war which wasn't good vs evil and therefore a lot more interesting possibilities of how he would become Vader. Instead they simply made Dooku a rather boring bad guy.