Author Topic: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech  (Read 3929 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Offline Dragon

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
Germany was never one for championing free speech. I admit some of those comments go too far, but I'm not fond of "hate speech" laws, either, since they easily can be twisted into straight-out censorship laws (not to mention it provides an easy way to sweep the real issue under a rug, even if it's legitimate). However, all I can see this resulting in is more region-specific restrictions for the Germans. Haters will simply take their hate elsewhere, or go behind proxies allowing them to bypass such restrictions. Global changes won't be enacted simply because that'd piss off FB's much larger American audience.

 
Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
The fact that they will shut people's mouth on Facebook will mean nothing. As Dragon said. They WILL express it somewhere else one way or another. BTW that may create a precedent. If we can force a "hate speech ban" now then why not to ban other sort of "incorrect" stuff later?

in that particular case the source of the problem is the migrant crisis.

Nothing justifies the racial hatred towards other people but let's be honest. What did they expect? Angela Merkel said that Germany will help everyone and automatically hordes of refugees and economical migrants set a course to that country(and I laughed really hard when she started talking about sharing the consequences of that mistake with other countries. ). And it turned out that the problem was faaar greater then anticipated. I'm not surprised at all that some people got really angry. And the censorship on Facebook won't change that. It can actually make thing even worse. Pissed people will get pissed even more when they realise that their mouth are being shut. I know that German are being very sensitive about topics connected with racism and widely known "hatred". But trying to keep some people silent by censoring it's the worst solution. It's like closing your eyes and pretending that the problem doesn't exist. 

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
I can see why seeking profit in local markets is important for FB. But from ethical perspective, they should not collaborate with regimes hostile to freedom of speech, IMHO. And it does not matter if it is Saudi Arabia, China, or Germany. Its not like FB will get blocked in Germany, no matter how uncooperative will it be..
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
They WILL express it somewhere else one way or another.

How does that figure? Many people, but certainly nowhere near all, will find ways to say what they want to say if they think it's actually important. However, if they're prevented/penalized for saying something extraordinarily dumb on FB or wherever, it seems entirely plausible that they just might shut up instead of finding some other place to say it. Even people writing the kind of vitriol as the examples in that article realize that it's just dumb venting (at least the following day, if not when pressing the button). They might move somewhere else, or they might not.

 
Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees long-term consequences for Germany because of this.  I cannot see a better way to marginalize these people into actual violent acts than criminally prosecuting them for Facebook posts.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
How does that figure? Many people, but certainly nowhere near all, will find ways to say what they want to say if they think it's actually important. However, if they're prevented/penalized for saying something extraordinarily dumb on FB or wherever, it seems entirely plausible that they just might shut up instead of finding some other place to say it. Even people writing the kind of vitriol as the examples in that article realize that it's just dumb venting (at least the following day, if not when pressing the button). They might move somewhere else, or they might not.
They won't shut up. The anger is very real, if anything "dumb venting" helps to mitigate it somewhat. They'll still complain to their neighbors and their friends in person. They'll also let anger brew inside them, especially if they feel nobody important is listening to them. At one point they will go out into the streets, protesting. If their cries fall upon deaf ears, they will turn to violence and, yes, terrorist attacks. It might end up being just like what is happening now in Israel. This can happen anywhere. For example, in Poland, after the 2010 presidential plane crash, an attempt to move a cross dedicated to the victims ended up with a violent religious riot that reminded many of the Middle East.

Also, when are the next elections in Germany? I've seldom seen a politician in a democratic country go through with something this unpopular. I don't know the current political climate in Germany, but I have a feeling that the current government is gonna get the boot for that. Not a bad thing, strictly speaking, but when times are though and people are polarized, democratic elections tend to result in an extremist option that implements "tyranny of the majority". Germans are big about having learned from history, but we'll see what actually happens when the chips are down.
I can see why seeking profit in local markets is important for FB. But from ethical perspective, they should not collaborate with regimes hostile to freedom of speech, IMHO. And it does not matter if it is Saudi Arabia, China, or Germany. Its not like FB will get blocked in Germany, no matter how uncooperative will it be..
It might get slapped with fines, though. Corporations don't concern themselves with ethics, but profit (except in rare cases). If it's profitable to censor Germans posting strong opinions and "protect" them from seeing strong opinions written by others, this will happen. Even if it was to catalyze a humanitarian crisis.

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
"Free Speech" covers rallying cries for actual targeted violence against refugee centers? Since when? Just to make sure we all understand what we want to defend here.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
Could you guys actually take a moment to read up on what is happening here? This isn't "Germany" trying to censor Facebook. This is german lawyer filing for criminal proceedings against Facebook. First, what's going to happen is that the Staatsanwaltschaft will investigate, then they may actually go to trial, which Facebook might lose, but more than likely will win on appeal.

Freedom of speech laws always have to be tested in court. That's how these things work.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
"Free Speech" covers rallying cries for actual targeted violence against refugee centers? Since when? Just to make sure we all understand what we want to defend here.

Free Speech covers it, yes. From the article it seems like those statements were only internet posts, and fairly non-specific, more like venting, instead of serious attempts to organize some real refugee killings. The fact that there are charges even for this kind of stuff is pretty absurd IMHO, and something I would expect to find in some dystopian fiction instead of real 21st century Europe. So even tough those statements were pretty ****ty, Facebook should not collaborate with German government, IMHO.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
"Free Speech" covers rallying cries for actual targeted violence against refugee centers? Since when? Just to make sure we all understand what we want to defend here.

Free Speech covers it, yes. From the article it seems like those statements were only internet posts, and fairly non-specific, more like venting, instead of serious attempts to organize some real refugee killings. The fact that there are charges even for this kind of stuff is pretty absurd IMHO, and something I would expect to find in some dystopian fiction instead of real 21st century Europe. So even tough those statements were pretty ****ty, Facebook should not collaborate with German government, IMHO.

Read post above yours

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
Angela Merkel said that Germany will help everyone and automatically hordes of refugees and economical migrants set a course to that country(and I laughed really hard when she started talking about sharing the consequences of that mistake with other countries. ).

Strictly speaking, Angela Merkel did not say that Germany will help everyone. But it is true that her statements were understood as such by the "hordes", and the fact that she did not decisively correct this sentiment later is a huge failure on her part. In addition to that, those migrants are not dumb, they know how ridiculously soft European migration policy is, particularly western European. Once they arrive into Germany, they will likely get to stay there, one way or the other, lol. This migration crisis truly opened my eyes to how dysfunctional EU has become. When Orban is the most rational politician in Europe, and I dont even like the guy, you know how low we have descended. Even Schengen, once considered a big success of EU, looks now in hindsight more like organized dismantling of what was left of EU border protections, while doing jack **** to reinforce the outer borders. Heck, shouldnt it have been suspended in times of crisis anyway? LOL
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
@Battuta:
I fail to see how that post addresses his post. someone has filed criminal charges against facebook and the German prosecutor's office is considering taking the case. Germany is considering if they should go after Facebook, criminally for the expression of thoughts on it's service. I mean this stuff isn't going to be stopped by this sort of thing, it'll just be moved to somewhere harder to track and oppose.
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Offline The E

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
@Battuta:
I fail to see how that post addresses his post. someone has filed criminal charges against facebook and the German prosecutor's office is considering taking the case. Germany is considering if they should go after Facebook, criminally for the expression of thoughts on it's service. I mean this stuff isn't going to be stopped by this sort of thing, it'll just be moved to somewhere harder to track and oppose.

You're missing something. All the prosecutors have said is that an investigation will be opened, which is what happens for all cases that aren't immediately bogus.

Nothing more has happened here. There are tons of lawsuits based around the use and misuse of freedom of speech filed every single year. If it weren't for Germany's harder restrictions around certain kinds of speech, this wouldn't be worth talking about, and even taking these into account, this is hardly worthy of note. When a trial happens, and facebook loses, and facebook loses on appeal, and the Constitutional Court upholds the verdicts (because if this goes to trial, it will go all the way), then there may be cause for concern. Not sooner.

Hell, even Minister of Justice Heiko Maas only asked facebook to be a bit stricter in enforcing facebook's community standards. Nothing more.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 01:25:26 pm by The E »
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Germany considers charges against Facebook for hate speech
I think you need to understand the law that supposed to be enforced here, which is not an infringement on the right to Free Speech:

The law against "Volksverhetzung" (§ 130 StGB) came into being as political consequence of the politicial periods in Germany following World War I, which saw the brith and utter failure of the first democracy on "german" territory and the decent into Nazi rule. When after World War II a new foundation for a democratic (west) Germany was written, it's authors tried to learn from the failures of the past and institued a number of measures to prevent the rise of dicatorship ever from happening again.

First and foremost among them are that the first 20 Articles of the Grundgesetz (our sorta-constitution) may never be removed from canon of laws and so overrule in princliple everything else in the constituion. Infringement into the fundamental rights was to be strictly governed and still is (except when it comes to the protections of Mail, Post and Telecommunication but then again there is no paragon state for that anymore).


The law which might be applicable here (if the State Prosecution determines so) is derived directly from Articles 5 and 18 and by lesser extend Article 20 (4) of our sorta-constitution:

Quote from: Art 5 GG
(1) Jeder hat das Recht, seine Meinung in Wort, Schrift und Bild frei zu äußern und zu verbreiten und sich aus allgemein zugänglichen Quellen ungehindert zu unterrichten. Die Pressefreiheit und die Freiheit der Berichterstattung durch Rundfunk und Film werden gewährleistet. Eine Zensur findet nicht statt.

(2) Diese Rechte finden ihre Schranken in den Vorschriften der allgemeinen Gesetze, den gesetzlichen Bestimmungen zum Schutze der Jugend und in dem Recht der persönlichen Ehre.

(3) Kunst und Wissenschaft, Forschung und Lehre sind frei. Die Freiheit der Lehre entbindet nicht von der Treue zur Verfassung.

Translation (as best as I can manage, legal german is nightmarish):
(1) All have right to speak and make public their opinion, in the form of Speech, Text and Image, as well as the right to inform themselves from commonly [not equivalent to publicly] avalible Sources. The Freedom of the Press and the Freedom to Report by broadcast and film is provided. There will be no censorship.

(2) These rights are limited by the directives of common law, the lawful prohibitions for the protection of the youth and in the right to personal honour.

(3) Art and Science, Research and Teaching are free [of government control]. The Freedom of Teaching does not relieve from Loyality to the Constitution."



(1) is your basic guarantee of the Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press, instructing the state to provide a plattform for publication if private persons choose not to - this is just a basic provision and doesn't overrule the editorial power in the public broadcasting services.

(2) only limites Free Speech and the Freedom of the Press within the norms of western democratic tradtion - opening a lawful way to combat untrue reporting, provisions against public humiliation and undue infringement into privacy. (the whole "protection of the youth"-angle is more controversial mostly because of debates what is considered harmful to "the youth")

(3) is one of those post-Nazi provisions. The government does not give preference to any school of Art, Scientific Inquiry or Teaching, this doesn't affect the governmental work to organize schools and universities. But that liberty doesn't cancel out of the legal obligation most teachers have due to being employees of the state. (German tradition has it that most state servants are employed and cared for by the state for life, in return they have are obligated to act in keeping with the law and policy of their employing branch of government if acting in any official capacity)

Quote from: Art. 18 GG
Wer die Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung, insbesondere die Pressefreiheit (Artikel 5 Abs. 1), die Lehrfreiheit (Artikel 5 Abs. 3), die Versammlungsfreiheit (Artikel 8), die Vereinigungsfreiheit (Artikel 9), das Brief-, Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis (Artikel 10), das Eigentum (Artikel 14) oder das Asylrecht (Artikel 16a) zum Kampfe gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung mißbraucht, verwirkt diese Grundrechte. Die Verwirkung und ihr Ausmaß werden durch das Bundesverfassungsgericht ausgesprochen.

Translation (as best as I can manage, legal german is nightmare):
"All who misue the Freedom of Speech, essepically that of the Press (Art 5, section 1), of Teaching (Art. 5, section 3), of Assembly (Art. 8), of Association (Art 9), the Protection of Mail, Post and Telecommunication (Art. 10), of Property (Art 14) or the Right to Asylum (Art. 16a) to combat the liberal democratic Foundation of the State, void said rights. The abjugation [of said rights] and it's extend [of said abjugation] have to be made by the Bundesverfassungsgericht [Federal Supreme Court]."


This is one of the big post-Nazi provisions. Part of the problem during the twilight years of the Weimar Republic (since the legal name of the state did not chase from 1870 to 1945, historians introduced several names to effectively distinguish between political periods) was that both revolutionist Communists and Nazis were in open and public opposition to the state but misused the legal protections offered by the democracy of Weimar to further their agendas - Nazi assemblies, specifically designed to display their manpower and matrial attitude - part promotion, part intimidation -  were protected assemblies. Speeches calling for prominent members of society in opposition to the Nazis were protected speech, as such not able to be used as evidence during trails that procecuted actual crimes being committed.

Hower the bar for the application of this provision in the GG is set pretty high. Our Bundesverfassungsgericht is the highest court and the end of legal chain and is oibligated to make rules that stand final point of the chain of appeal.



The law is supposed to be a legal firewall against the radical (of either stripe) political aggitators in public and are rarely used in court, convictions on grounds of that law is even rarer. Mostly investigations on ground of this law end up being tried as civil cases like Slander. This is usually the case because the prohibitions to the application of the law are pretty step:

For that kind of case to apply it has to be proven beyond a doubt that you would be acting in opposition to the liberal and democratic values laid down in the first 20 Articles of the GG consitently AND have the intention to replace the current state with another.
Most cases break down with the second requirement, but a lot already do with requirement number one - being against the a certain policy or providing a plattfrom for those that are (say, the application of the Right to Asylum) doesn't constitute (in legal terms) opposition to liberal democracy.

However that doesn't end of the course of legal inquiry, esspecially if - as it often the case with e.g. racist statements - there is still an interest in civil proceedings. Said interest is ussually determined by the course case takes - unless the case is of "particular public interest" (which is a determination the Proscution has to proove to the Court), the prosecutors refer back to the person(s) that filed the original case and then it becomes a civil case in which a court has to make determination whose rights are ranked higher (pretty standard case).


All this however has not kept people to use that law as starting point (which is legally valid because it is easier to go from a more extreme law back down to a "regular" on, instead the other way around) and then using the paperwork for a PR drum.

(In my ten years as an activist (yes I do that too, hence my paradoxical dislike to get political on the internet) I've seen dozens of § 130 StGB-cases being filed, only some were procecuted as such and even then the case had to be air-tight and water-proof.)


That the current case has struck a cord with the Prosecutors is mostly a problem of FB's own design. FB is not a company with high standards of transparancy of it's own practices, and so has been a target of dozens of civilian suits in this year alone. However recent legal developments have destroyed large portions of FB's legal defense (e.g. the Safe Habour ruling) and any ruling coming out of this is a legal headway as how to deal with an international company like it.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 05:20:50 pm by 0rph3u5 »
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