[headdie]

It is a choice of some countries to subject themselves to ethnic conflicts and terrorism in exchange for supposed benefits of multiculturalism and open borders (if there even are any, lol).

Never eat sushi I take? Or chinese food, or British, or French or German food? No Greek food? Italian? Arabic? Persian? American? Ever eat McDonalds? Starbucks? KFC?

You laugh at the benefits of multiculturalism but your every day life is probably rife with the most basic examples of cultural-imports both from abroad and from immigrants to the country. Benefits which directly impact your standard of living on a day to day basis.

In todays economically globalized world, I can enjoy diverse goods without importing lots of people along with it. And really, foreign food of all things is your argument? If I had to choose between a peaceful country with no religious extremism and terrorism, and diverse food, I choose the first option in a heartbeat. Kebabs are not really that important. But yes, I dont deny that there can be some benefits to multiculturalism, I just dont think they outweight the downsides. Not at all.

and it's all there either because someone from that region brought it over and started selling it or someone went over to that region and brought the idea back.  Lets take it to more fundamental levels, the number system we use in the west, you know 0123456789 is an arabic invention, gunpowder? China, Latin? Southern Europe, Carpet? Middle East.  there is not a significant culture on this planet that is not a product of migration and immigration.  Does immigration cause problems? yes, does the Internet cause problems, Hell yes, but I dont see many sane people calling for the internet to be dismantled or limited to domestic access only.

[666maslo666]

Battuta, I do not believe this rhetoric at all. Muslim immigration aligns with ISIS goals, because it allows their ideology to gain a foothold and grow in the west. These attacks would not happen without it. Western badly protected borders and unregulated migration policies are obviously a weakness, not any kind of power. You have it exactly backwards.

[666maslo666]

and it's all there either because someone from that region brought it over and started selling it or someone went over to that region and brought the idea back.  Lets take it to more fundamental levels, the number system we use in the west, you know 0123456789 is an arabic invention, gunpowder? China, Latin? Southern Europe, Carpet? Middle East.  there is not a significant culture on this planet that is not a product of migration and immigration.  Does immigration cause problems? yes, does the Internet cause problems, Hell yes, but I dont see many sane people calling for the internet to be dismantled or limited to domestic access only.

Examples from deep past wont convince me. In modern world, we do not need migration when we have globalized markets to spread foreign goods all around the world and internet to spread foreign ideas all over the world. That said, I am not against all migration at all, but I certainly am against unregulated mass migration and migration of those who are highly religious, uneducated, poor, more criminal or otherwise problematic. Migrants must improve the host country, or they have no reason to be there.

[Phantom Hoover]

Scotland is facing a demographic crisis in the middle future due to falling birthrates; without immigration, we won't have enough young people to keep the country running. This situation is, as I understand it, pretty representative of the rest of Western Europe.

[headdie]

and it's all there either because someone from that region brought it over and started selling it or someone went over to that region and brought the idea back.  Lets take it to more fundamental levels, the number system we use in the west, you know 0123456789 is an arabic invention, gunpowder? China, Latin? Southern Europe, Carpet? Middle East.  there is not a significant culture on this planet that is not a product of migration and immigration.  Does immigration cause problems? yes, does the Internet cause problems, Hell yes, but I dont see many sane people calling for the internet to be dismantled or limited to domestic access only.

Examples from deep past wont convince me. In modern world, we do not need migration when we have globalized markets to spread foreign goods all around the world and internet to spread foreign ideas all over the world. That said, I am not against all migration at all, but I certainly am against unregulated mass migration and migration of those who are highly religious, uneducated, poor, more criminal or otherwise problematic. Migrants must improve the host country, or they have no reason to be there.

Which is why I used the internet as it is a modern equivalent in terms of data exchange but also intrinsically causes problems due to the ability to spread misinformation and is a proven tool to groom people, especially the vulnerable into doing radical things.

Also if you think Paris can only happen with immigrants, fine but what are you going to do about people who arrive on a 1-3 month tourist Visa?  because believe me that is more than enough time to put something like Paris into place

Scotland is facing a demographic crisis in the middle future due to falling birthrates; without immigration, we won't have enough young people to keep the country running. This situation is, as I understand it, pretty representative of the rest of Western Europe.

Indeed the Baby boomers are hitting retirement age in the UK as a whole 2.4 children has dropped to 1.8 iirc

[General Battuta]

666, you seem to have two locations to put immigrants: 'with us' and 'no problem'. But if you turn these immigrants away, they go somewhere.

Daesh is not afraid of Muslims within its own territory. It is afraid of Muslims being 'corrupted' by the West. And rightly so. That's the power that actually works.

[666maslo666]

Scotland is facing a demographic crisis in the middle future due to falling birthrates; without immigration, we won't have enough young people to keep the country running. This situation is, as I understand it, pretty representative of the rest of Western Europe.

Demographic crisis is one argument for immigration I find somewhat reasonable. But, I still think it is often overstated. For one thing, real economic performance should always be measured in GDP **per capita**, not mere GDP, so in theory it is independent of absolute population size. So there will be no economic collapse due to demographic contraction at all. There will be pressure on pension systems and similar problems, but nothing catastrophic. It is just not a huge issue. Second, for immigration to be effective in remedying this problem, the immigrants must be economically productive, not a burden. This is not a given with muslim immigrants, especially if they dont integrate well.

Taken together, Id rather go the way of Japan and heavily invest in technology and education, rather than in dubious mass migration schemes.

[General Battuta]

Christ. You should look up how well that's worked for Japan and China.

[666maslo666]

Also if you think Paris can only happen with immigrants, fine but what are you going to do about people who arrive on a 1-3 month tourist Visa?  because believe me that is more than enough time to put something like Paris into place

Let me say one thing clearly: freak isolated attacks can happen anywhere. But huge, coordinated and **regular** attacks? And increased ethnic violence connected with islam? You will not find that in any country with insignificant muslim populations.

[The E]

Demographic crisis is one argument for immigration I find somewhat reasonable. But, I still think it is often overstated. For one thing, real economic performance should always be measured in GDP **per capita**, not mere GDP, so in theory it is independent of absolute population size. So there will be no economic collapse due to demographic contraction at all. There will be pressure on pension systems and similar problems, but nothing catastrophic. It is just not a huge issue. Second, for immigration to be effective in remedying this problem, the immigrants must be economically productive, not a burden. This is not a given with muslim immigrants, especially if they dont integrate well.

Taken together, Id rather go the way of Japan and heavily invest in technology and education, rather than in dubious mass migration schemes.

Please cite data. For the record, the OECD disagrees with you. Bottom line: Migrants are net contributors to a country's economy.

[666maslo666]

Christ. You should look up how well that's worked for Japan and China.

It worked well for them. I am aware of this meme that Japan has some kind of economic "crisis" due to demographic. It is simply not true. All that happened is that their economy is growing a bit more slowly than it otherwise would. But they are still getting wealthier. If anything, Japan is a clear example that demographic threat is way way overstated.

[headdie]

Scotland is facing a demographic crisis in the middle future due to falling birthrates; without immigration, we won't have enough young people to keep the country running. This situation is, as I understand it, pretty representative of the rest of Western Europe.

Demographic crisis is one argument for immigration I find somewhat reasonable. But, I still think it is often overstated. For one thing, real economic performance should always be measured in GDP **per capita**, not mere GDP, so in theory it is independent of absolute population size. So there will be no economic collapse due to demographic contraction at all. There will be pressure on pension systems and similar problems, but nothing catastrophic. It is just not a huge issue. Second, for immigration to be effective in remedying this problem, the immigrants must be economically productive, not a burden. This is not a given with muslim immigrants, especially if they dont integrate well.

Taken together, Id rather go the way of Japan and heavily invest in technology and education, rather than in dubious mass migration schemes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_ageing

short version a number of countries in the developed world are reaching the point where there are more retired people than working people.  This means that the population income is lower because there are less people to earn the money at the same relative income rate per person, so less money is going into private/public pension schemes, health services, etc but at the same time the number of people drawing on these resources is growing which makes for a massive financial deficit.

Also if you think Paris can only happen with immigrants, fine but what are you going to do about people who arrive on a 1-3 month tourist Visa?  because believe me that is more than enough time to put something like Paris into place

Let me say one thing clearly: freak isolated attacks can happen anywhere. But huge, coordinated and **regular** attacks? And increased ethnic violence connected with islam? You will not find that in any country with insignificant muslim populations.

You block immigration? fine but guess what the organisers of these attacks are not going to go away and like the drugs trade they just find other ways to conduct their trade so for terror attacks you could means such as people smuggling or legitimate means of entry like tourist/study/business visas.

Or hey why not convert a Cessna to drop a bomb and fly it from the middle east to europe via small airfields, a pre prepared flight plan and transit Visas?

[666maslo666]

Please cite data. For the record, the OECD disagrees with you. Bottom line: Migrants are net contributors to a country's economy.

Lumping together all migration is a common dishonest strategy to make it appear as good. And yet your source shows that while net contributors, it is only barely so. Now show me the numbers specifically for MENA migrants coming into Europe and who are not highly educated - the group relevant to this discussion. I bet this category will be a burden and we would be better of without them.

Another dishonest strategy to make migration appear better than it really is is based on claiming that migration increases GDP, but with no mention of GDP per capita, which is stagnant or even lowered. Beware of this trap, too.

[666maslo666]

666, you seem to have two locations to put immigrants: 'with us' and 'no problem'. But if you turn these immigrants away, they go somewhere.

Daesh is not afraid of Muslims within its own territory. It is afraid of Muslims being 'corrupted' by the West. And rightly so. That's the power that actually works.

As I said, I dont agree with this. If Daesh could send million extremists into Europe, with 900.000 being corrupted by the west, and 100.000 remaining extremists, they certainly would do it. It would be in their interest to do this, from their POV it is better than there being no extremists at all in Europe.

One more thing, surveys show that it is often younger or second generation muslims who are more radical. So do not overestimate this "corrupting influence" of the west. It may work against docile western christians but it may very well not be enough to prevail against extreme islam which is much more conservative and radical.

[Phantom Hoover]

As I said, I dont agree with this. If Daesh could send million extremists into Europe, with 900.000 being corrupted by the west, and 100.000 remaining extremists, they certainly would do it. It would be in their interest to do this, from their POV it is better than there being no extremists at all in Europe.

Well yes, the point is that in reality this doesn't happen.

[General Battuta]

You 'don't agree' with the fact that if you turn away immigrants, they go somewhere else?

[StarSlayer]

You 'don't agree' with the fact that if you turn away immigrants, they go somewhere else?

Come on ttuta we talked about this, conservation of mass is a lie.

[666maslo666]

You 'don't agree' with the fact that if you turn away immigrants, they go somewhere else?

No, thats obvious. I dont agree with this notion that ISIS is somehow threatened by muslims going into Europe. Thats what they want!

Besides, the relevant question here is how to make our countries more safe, not how to spite ISIS leaders.. So I think this whole discussion about what ISIS wants is pretty inconsequential. The important question is, will limiting such immigration improve security situation in our countries, or not?

[Bobboau]

can I have a slight asside?
on the global scale we cannot sustain population growth, the world will have to adjust to a stable population, isn't immigration as a solution to an aging workforce in one country 1) just moving to problem to other parts of the world which are even less capable of handling the problem  2) replacing a culture that has adopted a lower population growth rate (something that is on the large and long scale good) with people from a culture that have a presumably higher growth rate? I suppose if the immigrants assimilate into the new culture and take it on as their own as part of the process it would work out OK, but is that will happen? that their original culture is abandoned when they move to their new land? is that what should happen?

[karajorma]

Christ. You should look up how well that's worked for Japan and China.

China recently implemented the two child policy exactly because they realise that there is a disaster coming if they allow their current population to age without having more kids.