[Bobboau]

that's a couple can have two children if they were both single children, right?

[NGTM-1R]

No, thats obvious. I dont agree with this notion that ISIS is somehow threatened by muslims going into Europe. Thats what they want!

Uh, did you read the rest of the thread? That's what they don't want. They want segregation. They want no race-mixing or religion-mixing.

[karajorma]

that's a couple can have two children if they were both single children, right?

Nope. This is an actual two child policy where pretty much anyone can have two children. The two children if both parents are single children has been around for about 6 years in most of China already and had already been relaxed in most places to allowing two kids if only one of the parents was an only child.

In general though the One Child Policy is hugely misunderstood by most people. It's not that you can't have more than one child, exceptions exist for so many categories that the average is much closer to two children per couple already. I remember being very surprised my first year in China to find that almost all my students had brothers and sisters with only children accounting for about 1 in 10 of my students or less.

Basically under the original policy you could have kids if you were from an ethnic minority, if you were in a rural part of the country and the first child was a girl, if you lived in an urban area you could pay a penalty fee (which is what most people did). Or you could do what a lot of people did and register your child as being someone else's and have another kid that way.

Despite that all, China definitely still faces a demographic crisis because large numbers of the middle class tend to feel that having two children is a big drain on finances in exactly the same way as we do in the West.

[Sandwich]

What's the opinion around here about the Sharia law enclaves that Muslim European citizens have set up over the past 10 years or so? If a Muslim population immigrating at a controlled, "normal" rate forms Sharia law enclaves, despite being given proper opportunities to integrate into society, how much more so will a Muslim refugee population, immigrating at a far higher rate than most countries will be able to cope with?

[NGTM-1R]

What's the opinion around here about the Sharia law enclaves that Muslim European citizens have set up over the past 10 years or so?

I've never seen evidence they exist outside the ranting fever dreams of right-wing lunatics running for President.

[Bobboau]

what would it take to change your mind? what evidence could Sandwitch provide that would convince you?

[karajorma]

Evidence that they actually exist from a reputable source of course.

[Bobboau]

how do you define "reputable"?

[karajorma]

If you need to ask, you probably shouldn't be the one answering.

[NGTM-1R]

what would it take to change your mind? what evidence could Sandwitch provide that would convince you?

Show me one? Let's see some acknowledgement of their existence by both local and national authorities? How about a legal basis under which they could exist in the first place? Maybe some people who aren't Muslim who've been subjected to Sharia authority against their will?

I mean, there are Jewish rabbinical courts in Brooklyn, that handle matters of Jewish religious law as it pertains to the activities of Jewish religious people. But that certainly doesn't mean that Brooklyn has enclaves where the only law is that of Judaism. They exist to settle disputes among believers, and have no governmental power. Or maybe you think that a divorce isn't real under the law between Catholics until the Church annuls the marriage?

I'm positive there are Sharia-law courts in Europe. (Actually, I'm equally positive they exist in the US; one of my coworkers was asked to testify in a Sharia proceeding. Banking is serious business under a strict interpretation, and one of our clients stood accused.) I'm equally positive they have no governmental support or power, but exist by consistent of the faithful and have only the powers the faithful choose grant them.

[Bobboau]

What about people who are part of these communities who want out and cannot escape? or anyone not conforming to the local faith being subject to harassment until they move out? Sort of like the closed Mormon settlements in the western US or some small protestant towns in the south?
I suppose there hasn't been an agreement on what actually defines one of these "enclaves". What do you think is meant by it? When I hear it I think of small closed communities where the local muslim religious leaders have defacto hegemony of power. I don't find these hard to believe because I know they exist in my country, certainly if you generalize it by removing the 'muslim' part. it's especially easy to believe they exists when I see **** like this which I'm sure you are aware of.

[NGTM-1R]

What about people who are part of these communities who want out and cannot escape? or anyone not conforming to the local faith being subject to harassment until they move out? Sort of like the closed Mormon settlements in the western US or some small protestant towns in the south?

That's bad, a statement for which I immediately won the gold in the 50-meter no-**** sprint, but you're describing a social problem the law is already fit to handle for the most part.

And one which, as Battuta has previously noted, goes away. These enclaves aren't North Korea. People who want to get out...usually can get out. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable. They're not surrounded by replicas of the Berlin wall, so people and ideas move in and out.

And the Mormon and Protestant towns you reference only manage because of their relative physical isolation, an achievement that's actually pretty hard in Europe. More importantly, people who want to get in don't really exist, and over time these little communities collapse, from the loss of their binding figures and the fact that the ideas all around them infiltrate and people flow out. Soft power triumphs. You should go back and read those posts.

When I hear it I think of small closed communities where the local muslim religious leaders have defacto hegemony of power.

I guess the Jews really are taking over Brooklyn, then. We better do something about that.

We'll have to start by making people not believe, since these leaders have power because people chose to believe in the religion. How do you propose to do so?

it's especially easy to believe they exists when I see **** like this which I'm sure you are aware of.

You mean the part where it was proved they don't have power, the one that works against your argument?

[Bobboau]

That's bad, a statement for which I immediately won the gold in the 50-meter no-**** sprint, but you're describing a social problem the law is already fit to handle for the most part.

And one which, as Battuta has previously noted, goes away. These enclaves aren't North Korea. People who want to get out...usually can get out. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable. They're not surrounded by replicas of the Berlin wall, so people and ideas move in and out.

And the Mormon and Protestant towns you reference only manage because of their relative physical isolation, an achievement that's actually pretty hard in Europe. More importantly, people who want to get in don't really exist, and over time these little communities collapse, from the loss of their binding figures and the fact that the ideas all around them infiltrate and people flow out. Soft power triumphs. You should go back and read those posts.

So that's the Answer to Sandwitch's question.

I guess the Jews really are taking over Brooklyn, then. We better do something about that.

We'll have to start by making people not believe, since these leaders have power because people chose to believe in the religion. How do you propose to do so?

By doing to the Muslims what we did to the Christians. Deconstructing their magical bull**** and not letting them get away with anything just because they get brown people points.

You mean the part where it was proved they don't have power, the one that works against your argument?

No, the one where they didn't get away with it this one time, I'm sure this is the first time this has been attempted and is the result that would always happen. I spent literally five seconds looking for an example of some people who aren't Muslim who've been subjected to Sharia authority against their will, but then again I could have searched for "Mohamed cartoon" and gotten a lot more examples.
So this clearly doesn't meet your standard, could you describe a couple of scenarios that you think would prove my argument.

[666maslo666]

deleted

[Dragon]

And one which, as Battuta has previously noted, goes away. These enclaves aren't North Korea. People who want to get out...usually can get out. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable. They're not surrounded by replicas of the Berlin wall, so people and ideas move in and out.

You'd be surprised. It's hard to get away form your "community", no matter what religion it is about. It doesn't matter if you're in a rural Polish village (which tend to be rather religious), a Mormon enclave or a Muslim community. From what I've seen, Muslims are rather tightly knit, as well, much like the Jews (probably due to how absorbing those religions are). I can't recall any specific case right now (I'm not going to refer you to a Polish paperback newspaper, anyway), but there were definitely people suffering at the hands of religious communities and completely unable to do anything about it, despite it being seemingly easy to just get up and leave. Particularly tragic cases do end up in the news. Social pressure they exert cannot be underestimated, it takes an extraordinary (and at least mildly antisocial) person to break ties with everyone they knew in a community for their own good.

[666maslo666]

No, thats obvious. I dont agree with this notion that ISIS is somehow threatened by muslims going into Europe. Thats what they want!

Uh, did you read the rest of the thread? That's what they don't want. They want segregation. They want no race-mixing or religion-mixing.

Once again, this entire line of argument that immigration somehow harms ISIS is utterly absurd. ISIS wants to gain a foothold in Europe and expand in Europe. That is clearly their objective and goal. So, in order to do that they must import muslims into Europe, and even if most of them secularize (a dubious notion), ISIS still achieves success because significant part of the rest will have sympathies towards ISIS and they gain recruiting grounds and thousands of potential soldiers where there were none before. What ISIS is really afraid of is being contained inside middle east with no room to grow globally and little chance to have global reach. This is what we should try to do. To contain the threat. This is what ISIS leaders do not want us to do.

Trying to claim that strict immigration policy somehow helps ISIS is as absurd as claiming that water is not wet. It is exactly backwards.

[karajorma]

And one which, as Battuta has previously noted, goes away. These enclaves aren't North Korea. People who want to get out...usually can get out. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable. They're not surrounded by replicas of the Berlin wall, so people and ideas move in and out.

And that's before we get to the point that Sandwich was talking about people who escaped the civil war in Syria! Is escaping Hicksville, Utah supposed to be more difficult to get out of?

[Dragon]

And that's before we get to the point that Sandwich was talking about people who escaped the civil war in Syria! Is escaping Hicksville, Utah supposed to be more difficult to get out of?

Yes, see my previous post. It wasn't social pressure that was keeping them in Syria. For a single person it's incredibly hard to escape their own group, even if it harms them. Especially when this group is bound by belief in something. Most people simply can't bear ditching their entire social circle for their own good, and escaping a community like such Hicksville pretty much amounts to that. Psychological barriers can be much harder to overcome than physical ones.

[666maslo666]

And one which, as Battuta has previously noted, goes away. These enclaves aren't North Korea. People who want to get out...usually can get out. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's definitely doable. They're not surrounded by replicas of the Berlin wall, so people and ideas move in and out.

And that's before we get to the point that Sandwich was talking about people who escaped the civil war in Syria! Is escaping Hicksville, Utah supposed to be more difficult to get out of?

A wrong analogy. It is an entirely different form of escape. Escaping civil war is just running away mostly. Escaping a religious cult takes a person that can resist brainwashing well and is willing to cut ties with family and friends. It may very well be be more difficult. That is assuming they even want to escape in the first place. Most of them are perfectly fine remaining conservative islamists. We are all atheists or secular here already so we errorneously see it as some kind of default mindset people will inevitably gravitate towards. I am afraid it does not work that way. Morals are relative and islamist elements inside western society have as much chance of growing over time as they have of secularizing, if not more so.

[Dragon]

Couldn't have put it better. Too many people here take reason and personal freedom for granted. Most people (especially the ones we're talking about) are both highly social and have no trouble accepting illogical notions. The truth is, many people join sects, religious and terrorist organizations all the time because they have a need to socialize. It might be hard to believe that people go to die "because their friends wanted them to", but it's how it actually works.

It is a matter of relative density, really. Take 100 Muslims and spread them among Europeans, with a lot of distance between them, so they're forced to seek social relations among their neighbors. They'll all adopt and assimilate in no time. Now take another 100 and put them in one place, and you've got an isolated community. People tend to prefer contacts with people of similar origins and beliefs if such are available, but if they aren't, they'd be forced to make do with whoever is available, usually adopting to fit.