Author Topic: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>  (Read 67832 times)

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Offline The E

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
It is almost as if it can be both things at once! A truly radical concept, I know! Imagine that.. World is not black and white! It doesnt fit neatly into your little neat categories. LOL
Unless the thing is question is Muslims, of course.  In that case, they're all barbarians who should all be treated as terrorists. 

Also, you must really hate that goddamn filthy British theocracy.  I bet they're all covert Muslims.

Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.
None of those count because only Muslims can be extremists.  Duh.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>


Quote
Of course muslims are much more religious than christians. They did not go through hundreds of years of secularization and reformation. You are telling me that I dont know anything about muslims yet you think they are just christians with turbans. Oh, the irony!

Again, citation ****ing needed. 

http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

Here you have a study directly comparing muslims and christians in Germany. Muslims are consistently far more extreme when it comes to all issues that were looked on.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

Here you have a study directly comparing muslims and christians in Germany. Muslims are consistently far more extreme when it comes to all issues that were looked on.
Oh how I wish this study could be done in the USA.  You haven't met fundamentalist Christians until you've met American ones.  It's hilarious.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:04:22 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

There are already some terrorists in Europe, therefore its irrational to not want the amount of terrorists in Europe to increase even further. Is this the point you are making?
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

There are already some terrorists in Europe, therefore its irrational to not want the amount of terrorists in Europe to increase even further. Is this the point you are making?
You still haven't proven that allowing refugees into European countries would increase terrorism.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

Here you have a study directly comparing muslims and christians in Germany. Muslims are consistently far more extreme when it comes to all issues that were looked on.
Oh how I wish this study could be done in the USA.  You haven't met fundamentalist Christians until you've met American ones.  It's hilarious.

Yup, American south fundamentalist christians can be pretty scary sometimes, I grant you that. Its a good thing they dont mass immigrate into Europe but stay in their little corner, I would be pretty concerned too if that was happening. Religious extremism in general is a bad thing, but dont act like all religions are currently the same when it comes to proportion/virulence of extremism/threat posed to Europe.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Yup, American south fundamentalist christians can be pretty scary sometimes, I grant you that. Its a good thing they dont mass immigrate into Europe but stay in their little corner, I would be pretty concerned too if that was happening. Religious extremism in general is a bad thing, but dont act like all religions are currently the same when it comes to proportion/virulence of extremism.
  Well they kinda are.  US Christians kinda prove that religious extremism is an environmental factor, not something religion-specific.

Here, have a fun article about it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/16/no-difference-in-religious-fundamentalism-between-american-muslims-and-christians/

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

There are already some terrorists in Europe, therefore its irrational to not want the amount of terrorists in Europe to increase even further. Is this the point you are making?

The point The_E is making is that according to you Islam is the only source of terrorism in the world, when the reality is as always that Idealist extremism, be it religious, sovereign, economic, whatever exists everywhere and Europe is not going to fix anything by taking discriminatory measures against the current media hot topic group which is the same old act with a different song
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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

mate i don't care if you're still touchy about dresden, the RAF are a fine upstanding organisation who couldn't be further from a terrorist group
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Basically, 666maslo666's position is that if we take these refugees and send them back to IS, they won't be as inclined to work for IS than if we let them in.  Instead they'll happily stay in the Middle-East (because that worked out very well in the past).  It makes perfect sense when you refuse to think about it.


Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

mate i don't care if you're still touchy about dresden, the RAF are a fine upstanding organisation who couldn't be further from a terrorist group
Best post in the thread.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:28:51 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

There are already some terrorists in Europe, therefore its irrational to not want the amount of terrorists in Europe to increase even further. Is this the point you are making?
You still haven't proven that allowing refugees into European countries would increase terrorism.

I guess all the intelligence services warnings about extremists being hidden among the refugees never happened. The fact that one of the attackers was apparently a registered refugee in Greece does not matter. There is also the mathematical fact that mixing a population with the higher incidence of extremism into a population with lower incidence of extremism will inevitably result in increase of the incidence in the latter population (see my earlier analogy with mixing chemicals of two different concentrations). What exactly would count as a proof to you?
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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
If this is not a theocracy, then I dont know what is, lol

Holy **** dude, you quote an article claiming that Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy to state that Saudi Arabia is a theocracy?

What the actual **** is wrong with you?

It is almost as if it can be both things at once! A truly radical concept, I know! Imagine that.. World is not black and white! It doesnt fit neatly into your little neat categories. LOL

Except you have immeaditely taking up on to call Saudi Arabia a theocracy, a little neat catagory that you specifically use to paint something entirely black - even though, by any definition, it's not. Untill the king of Saudi Arabia wields as much theological power as, say, the Pope, it will never be a theocracy. This is not a case of radical concepts, this is simply you not understanding what words you use.

Straight
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

mate i don't care if you're still touchy about dresden, the RAF are a fine upstanding organisation who couldn't be further from a terrorist group

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
I guess all the intelligence services warnings about extremists being hidden among the refugees never happened. The fact that one of the attackers was apparently a registered refugee in Greece does not matter. There is also the mathematical fact that mixing a population with the higher incidence of extremism into a population with lower incidence of extremism will inevitably result in increase of the incidence in the latter population (see my earlier analogy with mixing chemicals of two different concentrations). What exactly would count as a proof to you?
Yeah but like we've been saying, sending them back to Syria and Iraq isn't going to make the terrorists stop being terrorists, and will increase the amount of people who do become terrorists because you've removed their last option (because no one who has better options is going to walk to Europe).

Sure, the problem's not in your borders, but why the hell would you think IS is going to stop caring about the West just because we sent them more recruits?

And there's no proof you can provide because your position makes no sense and plays straight into IS hands.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:25:12 am by Aesaar »

  

Offline headdie

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
maslo, you know the best way to deal with terrorists? not to be afraid of them, let the security services get on with their jobs and for the rest of us to get on with our lives, the clue is in the name Terrorists, if Ireland taught us in the UK anything it's that ultimately you won't stop all the plots, some will get though and when they do, just pick up the pieces, remember the dead and move the **** on because terror cannot thrive if the people don't fear and if the people aren't afraid then they wont demand the changes the terrorists want just to make them go away.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Right, because home-grown terrorism is not a thing in Europe and has never been. Never mind the IRA or the RAF or basque separatists or neonazis. They don't matter.

mate i don't care if you're still touchy about dresden, the RAF are a fine upstanding organisation who couldn't be further from a terrorist group

Hahahahahahahahaha

I guess all the intelligence services warnings about extremists being hidden among the refugees never happened. The fact that one of the attackers was apparently a registered refugee in Greece does not matter. There is also the mathematical fact that mixing a population with the higher incidence of extremism into a population with lower incidence of extremism will inevitably result in increase of the incidence in the latter population (see my earlier analogy with mixing chemicals of two different concentrations). What exactly would count as a proof to you?

This is not remotely a 'mathematical fact', much like your misread polls from a few months ago. Did you mean that the average will increase in the combined population?

Your arguments rely on a kind of lay determinism, a naive and deceptive 'basic logic' which isn't born out in the stochasticism of the real world. ****'s more complicated than this.

The last twenty years have made it very clear that first-order responses don't prevent violence, whether that violence is religious, political, or even civil (like school shootings). Structural changes do. No amount of deportation, targeted killing, and military action will solve Daesh in the long run. What will stop Daesh is the collapse of support for their movement caused by their own brutality towards Muslims, their genocidal and apocalyptic philosophy, their wingnut theology, and the West's more enticing economic and ideological options.

Exclusionary acts built Daesh: they came out of the Iraqi civil war, which came out of the disastrous decision to disband the Iraqi army. In each case the correct solution would've been to bring them closer and give them a stake in civil process. This isn't easy, and it's not going to stop every attack or get them to set down arms. But it will destroy the power base which they depend on.

Sending people away spatially will not stop them from launching terrorist attacks on your homeland.

maslo, you know the best way to deal with terrorists? not to be afraid of them, let the security services get on with their jobs and for the rest of us to get on with our lives, the clue is in the name Terrorists, if Ireland taught us in the UK anything it's that ultimately you won't stop all the plots, some will get though and when they do, just pick up the pieces, remember the dead and move the **** on because terror cannot thrive if the people don't fear and if the people aren't afraid then they wont demand the changes the terrorists want just to make them go away.

Exactly. Terrorist attacks are designed to produce political change — changes caused by reflexive and short-sighted backlash.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Muslims do not really care about the fact that we are letting in migrants. No European muslim is going to think "omg, Europe increased their border controls and does not let migrants inside anymore, I better become an extremist". That is not how human mind works at all. Either they were going to become an extremist, or they were not. Migration policy has nothing to do with it.

That's incredibly short-sighted. What causes radicalisation is pointing out injustices which can be blown up till they seem massive enough that someone is willing to blow themselves up to right them. That's a really, really big part of it. You really don't think that a massively racist deportation of anyone who seems Muslim followed by an immigration policy which goes against those countries in particular isn't going to be spun that way?

Or are you planning to deport all the people who could possibly be radicalised? i.e every single Muslim in Europe.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:38:39 am by karajorma »
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Yup, American south fundamentalist christians can be pretty scary sometimes, I grant you that. Its a good thing they dont mass immigrate into Europe but stay in their little corner, I would be pretty concerned too if that was happening. Religious extremism in general is a bad thing, but dont act like all religions are currently the same when it comes to proportion/virulence of extremism.
  Well they kinda are.  US Christians kinda prove that religious extremism is an environmental factor, not something religion-specific.

Here, have a fun article about it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/16/no-difference-in-religious-fundamentalism-between-american-muslims-and-christians/

American christians are more conservative than European ones, despite America being more wealthy and with comparable or higher standard of living than Europe. Why is that? Isnt it enough to shower people with wealth to get rid of religious extremism? Could culture or ideology be a factor too?

The article correctly points out that muslim immigrants in the US are different (of higher quality) than muslim immigrants arriving to Europe, so those two populations are not exactly comparable. Of course more educated and wealthy immigrants are less likely to be extremist, but if anything, this proves my point that we need a better immigration policy so that low quality immigrants are filtered out in Europe too, just like they are in the US - thats how we get less extremism. We dont have a magic wand to solve poverty once we accept lots of poor immigrants, we cant even solve it among our own people, and its not for a lack of trying.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Daesh will not be truly solved anytime soon, you may as well give up on that. It will just get replaced by a successor anyway. It took hundreds of years for christianity to get rid of its extremism, and there is no indication the process will go any quicker for muslims. I am not ruling it out, but dont hold your breath.

But, I have never claimed Daesh will in any way be solved by my ideas, tough. What I am claiming is that it will make Europe much more secure. Wars in middle east will go on as they always do, but they would not spill into Europe if not for mass immigration. And if they do, it will be an isolated attack, not regular occurrences of violence.

Battuta, you claim that it is complicated, but it really is not complicated at all in this instance. The more muslims you have in your country, the more likely it is there will be regular terrorist attacks and ethnic violence against non-muslims. Basic logic is enough to infer this.

These attacks would not be happening if not for mass immigration which increased French muslim population from 1% to 10% in like two decades. I am sure of that.

And it will only be getting worse unless this achiless heel of western Europe is fixed.


Exclusionary acts built Daesh, and they should also be used to contain it.

Sending people away spatially will not stop all attacks, but it will greatly decrease their frequency.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:59:53 am by 666maslo666 »
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