Author Topic: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>  (Read 67438 times)

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Offline Dragon

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
http://www.newsweek.com/defeat-isis-muslims-must-reform-sharia-394942

Interesting because it's in newsweek and not the daily mail.
Could you summarize, quoting the most important parts? It looks like it could be of interest, but the stupid paywall prevents me from accessing it.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
@Phantom Hoover
I'm saying you are wording it poorly. Say and demonstrate that it is strategically in their interest, lead with how it helps or hurts them, not simply that they want it. just because they want it doesn't mean that is not a blunder on their part.

@Dragon
to cherry pick the parts I'm surprised to hear coming from a non-conservative major media outlet.

"the truth of the matter is that ISIS leaders and supporters can and do draw on a wealth of scriptural and historical sources to justify their actions"
...
"What then is needed is an alternative view of Sharia, one that argues that the scriptural sources that ISIS relies on must be seen in their wider historical context."
...
"But for an alternative view of Sharia to emerge and take root through modern consensus, Muslims must first acknowledge and confront the problem of having acquiesced to a traditional interpretation of Sharia and ignored alternatives that would condemn ISIS as un-Islamic."

TL;DR there are problems in Islam and Muslims need to change it. worded much less antagonistically of course.
of course I'm probably completely misrepresenting it, you should read it for yourself.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 02:01:12 pm by Bobboau »
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Battuta, one way spatial separation is obviously the best security strategy. It maximizes our ability and minimizes theirs. So it is clear that we should pursue it. 
Spatial separation is impossible.  You can't put every passport from a Middle-Eastern country on a no-fly list.  The people who carried out the 9/11 attacks didn't plan them in the USA.  Closing borders to immigration will not help you.

Besides, as I said, I do not believe mere tight migration control can radicalize moderate muslims. No normal muslim becomes a terrorist only because of tight immigration laws. Thats not how human mind works.
I've already explained to you what drives people to terrorism, and why closing borders would contribute to that.  You stubbornly refuse to listen and shift the goalposts or deflect every time someone makes an argument you can't bull**** away.  You have utterly failed to address any of the points made by the people who have called you out on your bull****, instead rephrasing crap that was already debunked (which I suspect went over your head).

You are completely ignorant on this topic, yet speak of it with such confidence that you are the most perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect I have ever interacted with.  I'd say you were trolling, but you're trying too hard for that.  You're just ignorant and proud of it.

This thread has shown me why you're a Star Citizen true believer: you're incapable of coming to terms with the possibility that you might be wrong.  You have created a little personal reality bubble, and every time something doesn't match your perception of reality, you ignore it or rationalize it away.  If reality conflicts with your beliefs, reality is wrong.

I'm probably gonna get warned for this post, but I don't really care.  It saddens me that someone like you can vote.  You are the perfect example of why formal post-secondary history education is important.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 02:18:03 pm by Aesaar »

 
Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
This thread has shown me why you're a Star Citizen true believer: you're incapable of coming to terms with the possibility that you might be wrong.  You have created a little personal reality bubble, and every time something doesn't match your perception of reality, you ignore it or rationalize it away.  If reality conflicts with your beliefs, reality is wrong.

I was with you there up untill that bit. I'm not sure why bringing up a silly videogame in a discussion topic concerning the death of innocents by the hundreds is a good call.

@Phantom Hoover
I'm saying you are wording it poorly. Say and demonstrate that it is strategically in their interest, lead with how it helps or hurts them, not simply that they want it. just because they want it doesn't mean that is not a blunder on their part.

Because, as others have stated in previous posts (and that ISIS have themselves stated!) the with us or against us philosophy has helped them in the past. They want it because they know it works for them. If this weren't true, they and any other terrorist organisation would have been blundering for the past 14 years now.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
I'm just saying lead with the it helps them not the they want it. sorry it was just bugging me I'm being pedantic.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
I was with you there up untill that bit. I'm not sure why bringing up a silly videogame in a discussion topic concerning the death of innocents by the hundreds is a good call.
Example of consistent behavior.  And come on, this thread's been silly as hell for a while.  We're practically arguing with Slovak Donald Trump.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 02:14:56 pm by Aesaar »

 
Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
I'm just saying lead with the it helps them not the they want it. sorry it was just bugging me I'm being pedantic.

Aah. Arguably, either lead works depending on who one is talking to.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
@Dragon
to cherry pick the parts I'm surprised to hear coming from a non-conservative major media outlet.

"the truth of the matter is that ISIS leaders and supporters can and do draw on a wealth of scriptural and historical sources to justify their actions"
...
"What then is needed is an alternative view of Sharia, one that argues that the scriptural sources that ISIS relies on must be seen in their wider historical context."
...
"But for an alternative view of Sharia to emerge and take root through modern consensus, Muslims must first acknowledge and confront the problem of having acquiesced to a traditional interpretation of Sharia and ignored alternatives that would condemn ISIS as un-Islamic."

TL;DR there are problems in Islam and Muslims need to change it. worded much less antagonistically of course.
of course I'm probably completely misrepresenting it, you should read it for yourself.
Ah, that. Well, to be honest, all (or almost all) instances of "Islam" in this thread should be batch-replaced with "Wahhabism" (or Salafism, if you feel respectful for them for whatever strange reason), for better accuracy. It's a particularly rigid, ultra-orthodox, short-sighted literal interpretation of Sunni Islam that came out of Saudi Arabia. Basically Arab version of Westboro Baptist Church, only more widespread. Ever wondered why you don't see Polish Lipka Tatars or even Crimean ones involved in all this? Well, this is because they're not Wahhabis. ISIS is Wahhabi, Al-Quaeda is (Bin Laden himself was from Saudi Arabia) and most of the radicals we see here are as well. Unfortunately, it's pretty common in the Middle East. You can't change Wahhabi interpretation of Sharia without it stopping being Wahhabism (if it was reasonable, it'd just be regular Sunnism).

And yes, it is considered un-Islamic by everyone who's not a Wahhabi, mostly because its highlights are: destruction of most Muslim historical sites in Saudi Arabia, destroying mosques, killing off a whole lot of people for not being Wahhabi enough, giving Muslims everywhere a bad name and causing disrespect towards women. Many others view Sharia completely differently, especially the more spiritual Sufi.

That said, this brings very little to the discussion. It narrows down who we're talking about, but given that refugees come from Syria, I would expect plenty of them to subscribe to this particular doctrine, as it's pretty common in that area, from what I know. Wahhabism is the worst form of Islam and not quite coincidentally, the form we're dealing with here. A quick look at Wikipedia (didn't do in-depth research) shows it spreading rapidly among Sunni Muslims, even among communities in Europe. Syrians are for most part Sunnis and usually either Wahhabist or at least influenced by Wahhabism.

  
Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
@Phantom Hoover
I'm saying you are wording it poorly. Say and demonstrate that it is strategically in their interest, lead with how it helps or hurts them, not simply that they want it. just because they want it doesn't mean that is not a blunder on their part.

Good thing Battuta explained exactly that right after he said it's bad to give Daesh what they want.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
meh, read my response to josh about me being pedantic.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Spatial separation is impossible.  You can't put every passport from a Middle-Eastern country on a no-fly list.  The people who carried out the 9/11 attacks didn't plan them in the USA.  Closing borders to immigration will not help you.

You surely can require visa for everyone coming from muslim majority country. Securing the borders will certainly help, too. It will not be 100% tight, but then we do not need it to be. You probably think that by spatial separation I mean "no muslim shall set foot into glorious European soil ever", or some other ridiculous strawman you made up in your mind. I dont. Tight immigration policy is entirely realistic, if only there was sufficient political will in western Europe..

The rest of your post is one giant ad-hominem, there wont be productive discussion about that..
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Example of consistent behavior.  And come on, this thread's been silly as hell for a while.  We're practically arguing with Slovak Donald Trump.

Yes, because if one happens to not be very fond of the fact that everyone and their dog can just walk from the middle of Syria straight into Paris at will, he must be some crazy far right winger whose opinions are automatically invalid..

I am putting European migration policy into the center of this discussion because that is where it belongs. Ignoring this means shutting your eyes before reality.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
You believe that Western presence in the Middle East poses no risk of terrorism. You don't get to take any stance about access to reality.

Doesn't every single nation in the EU already require a visa for Syrian citizens to enter?

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
You surely can require visa for everyone coming from muslim majority country. Securing the borders will certainly help, too. It will not be 100% tight, but then we do not need it to be. You probably think that by spatial separation I mean "no muslim shall set foot into glorious European soil ever", or some other ridiculous strawman you made up in your mind. I dont. Tight immigration policy is entirely realistic, if only there was sufficient political will in western Europe..
Do you think the people who carried out 9/11 were legal immigrants?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 03:32:05 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
You believe that Western presence in the Middle East poses no risk of terrorism. You don't get to take any stance about access to reality.

Doesn't every single nation in the EU already require a visa for Syrian citizens to enter?

Nope, I believe Western presence in the Middle East poses a risk of terrorism, relatively small risk but still.

This risk gets hugely inflated by Middle East presence in the West. Thats the important part and one Europe should address.

EU migration control has collapsed (maybe except for V4), so whether it does require visa in theory or not is irrelevant. What I want is for migration control be be tightened and then actually enforced in reality. Not interested in what is only on paper.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Key word: LEGAL

Can you tell me how many of the newcomers are LEGAL migrants? It's not even about migrant procedures. Can't expect them in that chaos. How many of them have proper documents that can assure us that they are indeed refugees from Syria Iraq and not for example economical migrants from Africa using that chaos only to get to Europe for "high-life" or worse: ISIS moles? I know. There is war. People are fleeing and often cannot take more then clothes they have on themselves. But I've already posted a link where a guy from Netherlands acquired a fake Syrian passport made in Turkey for 800$ and travelled with it without any problems.

I noticed that every time someone mentions "tightened immigration policy" most of you imagine soldiers rushing towards immigrants camps/estates with rifles, beating and packing them on trucks and driving away.


By tightening and securing our migrant policy we should be able to counter such threats like using faked documents or seamless movement without any documents!. I don't need to explain how dangerous may be people using fake-forged ID's.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Your goalposts are in orbit by now. You can't connect your model to the causes of terrorism, you can't figure out the causes of terrorism, the demands you make are already in place, you believe that Western presence in the Middle East is not a major driver of terrorism in spite of the last thirty years of history — do you have anything left?

 
Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Your goalposts are in orbit by now. You can't connect your model to the causes of terrorism, you can't figure out the causes of terrorism, the demands you make are already in place, you believe that Western presence in the Middle East is not a major driver of terrorism in spite of the last thirty years of history — do you have anything left?


Oh, come on. Devastation of Iraq, Afghanistan was just a small accident :)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Your goalposts are in orbit by now. You can't connect your model to the causes of terrorism, you can't figure out the causes of terrorism, the demands you make are already in place, you believe that Western presence in the Middle East is not a major driver of terrorism in spite of the last thirty years of history — do you have anything left?

Oh, come on. Devastation of Iraq, Afghanistan was just a small accident :)

Seriously. The notion of 'spatial separation' is the weirdest misunderstanding of global politics I've heard of since mercantilism.

Dude should read the 9/11 Commission Report.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Another terrorist attack in Paris <13.11.2015>
Your goalposts are in orbit by now. You can't connect your model to the causes of terrorism, you can't figure out the causes of terrorism, the demands you make are already in place, you believe that Western presence in the Middle East is not a major driver of terrorism in spite of the last thirty years of history — do you have anything left?

You still deny that muslim presence in Europe is a major driver of terrorism (and other extremism), despite the last 15 years of history. Anything to shift attention away from the elephant in the room..

And really, demands I am making are already in place? Are we living in the same universe? Please take me to this parallel reality, where Europe immigration control is not in a state of complete collapse for more than 6 months now, I would like to live there instead of this mess.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.