Poll

What did you think about BPC difficulty

Consistently too easy
1 (1.3%)
Consistently too hard
5 (6.5%)
Generally balanced
36 (46.8%)
Some missions were too hard(post which)
34 (44.2%)
Some missions which were supposed to be hard were too easy(post which)
1 (1.3%)

Total Members Voted: 77

Author Topic: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]  (Read 21837 times)

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Offline Doko

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
The intron system should've had a dedicated article on the database to link with the individual ship descriptions. Maybe declassified or brought to the player's attention after the first mission where it is encounter if one is playing at the appropriate difficulty.



 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
Nope.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
You mean we don't play with armor classes enough?

The AoA missions mostly haven't changed since 2010.
No, I mean you play too much :).

Ok, maybe it's not this case. I don't know if Sathanas armour class in "Time for Heroes" was changed or Terran beams are just so op, but the juggernaut falls far too quickly. Colossus needed quite a lot of time to beat the first Sathanas even with its beams powered up and in AoA, after you destroy the beams, it's about 2 minutes till it blows up. I understand GTVA's technological advancement, but as for me, you made this fight too short. I didn't feel like fighting the heaviest ship (apart from Dante) in the entire Shivan armada.

And besides, if Orestes battlegroup just jumped in behind the Sathanas it would probably be able to take it down before it turns over :).

 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
All I have to say about that mission is for me the logistics ship escourts showed up and barely managed to fire a salvo through its burning wreckage.

I don't overall mind it being much shorter though, in fact I tend to prefer that.  It was pretty... drawn out, at one point.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
You mean we don't play with armor classes enough?

The AoA missions mostly haven't changed since 2010.
No, I mean you play too much :).

Ok, maybe it's not this case. I don't know if Sathanas armour class in "Time for Heroes" was changed or Terran beams are just so op, but the juggernaut falls far too quickly. Colossus needed quite a lot of time to beat the first Sathanas even with its beams powered up and in AoA, after you destroy the beams, it's about 2 minutes till it blows up. I understand GTVA's technological advancement, but as for me, you made this fight too short. I didn't feel like fighting the heaviest ship (apart from Dante) in the entire Shivan armada.

And besides, if Orestes battlegroup just jumped in behind the Sathanas it would probably be able to take it down before it turns over :).

The entire TEI fleet doctrine is built around the manoeuvre shown in A Time For Heroes, though I don't think there's a good explanation for the Orestes' strategy being 'sit and wait to get shockjumped'; it's not surprising they take the Sathanas to pieces in seconds.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
You mean we don't play with armor classes enough?

The AoA missions mostly haven't changed since 2010.
No, I mean you play too much :).

Ok, maybe it's not this case.

I don't think it's the case, IIRC there's no armor type ****ery on the Sathanas (and it's heavily upgunned). It just gets shock jumped by a bunch of ships designed to kill a Sathanas.

What you're actually asking for is more playing with armor types.

 

Offline Darius

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
The Erebus and nuTitan have a more powerful weapons loadout compared to originals.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
Quote
What you're actually asking for is more playing with armor types.
Ok, my mistake, I thought some trick with armour class is used here to make Sathanas take damage faster.

Quote
The Erebus and nuTitan have a more powerful weapons loadout compared to originals.
I understand the explanation why Sathanas is destroyed so quickly, I just think it would be cool in terms of gameplay if it took much more time and effort to take down such a beast. Just my personal feeling, don't know if others would agree.

Quote
The entire TEI fleet doctrine is built around the manoeuvre shown in A Time For Heroes, though I don't think there's a good explanation for the Orestes' strategy being 'sit and wait to get shockjumped'; it's not surprising they take the Sathanas to pieces in seconds.
Well, Orestes tactics is based on an assumption that Sathanas will jump in beyond main beams' range and then approach GTVA ships to fire at them. But as we saw in Freespace 2 (Their Finest Hour, for example), Sathanas has absolutely no quarrel to jump in close enough to fire just after arrival. And the entire manoeuvre goes to hell :P.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
I guess that's why sprint drives were invented, to let the Erebus jump out if it's shockjumped and set up a more favourable engagement. The Orestes does immediately turn and run from the Sathanas, though, and it should be fast enough to stay out of beam range...

e: nope, the Erebus has the same top speed as the Sath. The TEI is a smokescreen, wake up Tev sheeple!
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
I guess that's why sprint drives were invented, to let the Erebus jump out if it's shockjumped and set up a more favourable engagement.

Exactly.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
nope, the Erebus has the same top speed as the Sath.
Pretty sure that was the design requirement: if out of range, stay out of range indefinitely. If in range, jump out.
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schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

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<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

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* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
But you assume a Terran ship will have time to turn over and run. In Time for Heroes Sathanas arrived that far for gameplay reasons, but normally it should be able to fire seconds after jumping in. So basically there are two possible outcomes when you are shock-jumped: 1) you have your drive recharged in a moment sath arrives and you jump out momentarily 2) you get smashed :P.

And jumping out is not always possible. We see jump drives in BP are not as fast-recharging as it could seem, at least ones on the destroyers. In Time for Heroes we are being told Orestes needs 10 minutes to have the drive recharged, so taking into consideration that we're launched shortly after arrival, it gives us 11-12-minute-long interval between consecutive jumps. Perhaps smaller ships have better mobility, like Serkr Team in WiH.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
The Orestes didn't have the Sprint Drive.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
But you assume a Terran ship will have time to turn over and run. In Time for Heroes Sathanas arrived that far for gameplay reasons, but normally it should be able to fire seconds after jumping in. So basically there are two possible outcomes when you are shock-jumped: 1) you have your drive recharged in a moment sath arrives and you jump out momentarily 2) you get smashed :P.

Things don't generally happen in BP 'for gameplay reasons'. That's the idea behind BP, to build fiction that works with the gameplay and vice versa.

As with most tactical-level scenarios in BP, the answer is to think about the context around the scenario. A huge chunk of the Erebus' tech description is devoted to its sensor fusion and datalink capabilities, as well as its EWAR suite.

An Erebus cannot survive being shockjumped by a Sathanas. A modern (21st century) warship can't survive a hit from a modern ASM. In both cases the combatant's defenses are built to answer the threat by never allowing it to occur.

Jump drive recharge depends on the ship's power allocation, recent action, and computational capabilities.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
The problem is that in A Time For Heroes the Orestes doesn't really seem to try any of that; it just sits in open space, waits for the Sath to come to it and gambles everything on the bomber strike. And I can't really see what the thoughtful BP strategic explanation for that is.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
Nah, it totally does. The battle group splits up to draw off the Sath's fighter complement, degrading it until a bomber attack is probably going to succeed. The Orestes launches a series of hit-and-run attacks on the Sath's systems to prep the main beams for bomber strike.

Then, when the Orestes' subspace maneuverability has been tapped out, she gets set for the killing blow by launching a strike package and waiting. The Sath arrives at a good position, the Orestes sends in the strike to disable the main beam weapons before the Sath can make range, then the Orestes closes to destroy it. It's a pretty well executed engagement, if not 100% ideal.


 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
Also the Orestes is a goddamn slug compared to the Atreus, since it's not as close to the 'final' Erebus capability spec.

 
Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
The problem is that in A Time For Heroes the Orestes doesn't really seem to try any of that; it just sits in open space, waits for the Sath to come to it and gambles everything on the bomber strike. And I can't really see what the thoughtful BP strategic explanation for that is.
On that I agree with Battuta. It's Sathanas' behaviour I find hard to explain, not the Orestes'.

Things don't generally happen in BP 'for gameplay reasons'. That's the idea behind BP, to build fiction that works with the gameplay and vice versa.
I appreciate and like your approach. I had (or at least did my best to have) similar in Shadow Genesis, it even went a bit too far in some missions :).

But as you state it this way, I can't see a rational explanation why the ship jumps in beyond firing range. Sathanas is not the only case - a Demon trying to destroy Duke had the same behaviour. It also arrived far away and closing, just sending fighters and bombers. Only explanation that comes to my mind is to make player have this "whoa, enemy is approaching, we're doomed!" feeling and simultaneously give him some time to take action. Three Shivan destroyers in a mission where Vishnans help us - same story again.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
You're looking at it backwards. Why would the Sathanas jump in within firing range, or the Abel, or the Demon you mentioned? When shock jumps are achieved in FS2 they're pretty generally accomplished when the Shivans already have assets on station. (Not to mention the, ah, complicated and very irrational nature of Shivan tactical behavior).

Shock jumps seem to require precision and foreplanning, even for Shivans. The Sathanas is chasing down the Orestes, but it hasn't been able to fix the Orestes to a position (whether by cornering it or deploying scouts) that would let it just pop in at killing range.

The burden of explanation would be more on the Shivans conveniently arriving at perfect firing range and angle.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Thoughts on Blue Planet Complete difficulty [POLL]
Speaking of, we tuned up the Ravana and the Allies both to be a bit less dumb in 'Slaying Ravana' in FS Blue.