[The E]

The post started with "I'm not going to debate climate change", dropped a bunch of links on climate change, and ended with "End of my input". That's textbook drive-by posting.

And that's the end of that debate in this topic. Any further discussion of this should take place either in pms or Site Support.

[Bobboau]

Not locking the thread?

[Col.Hornet]

Abortion should be legal, accessible, safe, and rare.  The best way to accomplish the latter is through sex education and improvement of living standards, as has been demonstrated both by studies and real-world data all over the planet.  Improve sex education, women's education, women's job prospects, and over-all access to birth control options for the population and the abortion rate does nothing but drop.  So does the overall birth rate, I might add, which renders the idea of abortion-as-supplementary-population-control both morally repugnant and completely unnecessary.

It's the great irony of consevrative America:  oh hell no, we can't possibly cover pregnancy-prevention in schools or health care, but if you get pregnant you'd better see that pregnancy to term.  Good grief.

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow. Personally I can see only three cases in which this... procedure could be allowed. Severe disability of the child, if pregnancy threatens the life of the mother. Or finally.... rape. I can simply understand that a girl who was hurt that way may not want to give birth to such child. Yet it doesn't change the fact that anytime you scrub... you kill a human or a wannabe human. Abortion is the ultimate solution in these cases and should be avoided unless critically necessary.


But make it accessible for everyone like painkillers? You gotta be f***** kidding me. So what? Every teen and adult who was dumb enough to have carefree sex and if something goes wrong just escape the responsibility? At what cost. It's the child who will pay the price, not an idiot who did not predict the results of their actions. That's where the sexual education, condoms and other stuff hits in. And here I agree totally. The more people will learn, the bigger are the chances that such situations won't appear and abortion won't be needed.

Besides it's a goddamn irony. First some people yell loud to have wider access to abortion. But then comes butthurt about birthrate regression < I know, the whole problem is a lot more complex but it's an integral part of it>. can't tell if that's a social engineering or stupidity. Or a mix of both. I also laughed mad when I read the UN's advice that in my country "we should have more liberal access to abortion". No thanks. I think that our rules are fair here.

TL:DR
If the child is severely disabled, pregnancy threatens mother's life or health or was conceived because of rape ----> you should have right to abort.

Any other case. Get your hands off and learn how to deal with responsibility.


Sorry if I got a bit emotional here. This topic is always a "hot" one.

 

[karajorma]

But make it accessible for everyone like painkillers? You gotta be f***** kidding me. So what? Every teen and adult who was dumb enough to have carefree sex and if something goes wrong just escape the responsibility? At what cost. It's the child who will pay the price, not an idiot who did not predict the results of their actions. That's where the sexual education, condoms and other stuff hits in. And here I agree totally. The more people will learn, the bigger are the chances that such situations won't appear and abortion won't be needed.

You do realise that the majority of abortions are by women who already have one or more children right? And that contraceptive failure is a major reason for abortions?

Cause from your post you don't seem to be aware of that and think abortion is just women who had unprotected sex.

[WeatherOp]

But make it accessible for everyone like painkillers? You gotta be f***** kidding me. So what? Every teen and adult who was dumb enough to have carefree sex and if something goes wrong just escape the responsibility? At what cost. It's the child who will pay the price, not an idiot who did not predict the results of their actions. That's where the sexual education, condoms and other stuff hits in. And here I agree totally. The more people will learn, the bigger are the chances that such situations won't appear and abortion won't be needed.

You do realise that the majority of abortions are by women who already have one or more children right? And that contraceptive failure is a major reason for abortions?

Cause from your post you don't seem to be aware of that and think abortion is just women who had unprotected sex.

Being a married man with three kids, I seriously doubt contraception failure is a major reason for abortions.

Now if you mean they are putting condoms on their heads and over their eyes, I could see that as a failure I guess.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow.

by this definition, masturbation is also murder

But make it accessible for everyone like painkillers? You gotta be f***** kidding me. So what? Every teen and adult who was dumb enough to have carefree sex and if something goes wrong just escape the responsibility? At what cost. It's the child who will pay the price, not an idiot who did not predict the results of their actions. That's where the sexual education, condoms and other stuff hits in. And here I agree totally. The more people will learn, the bigger are the chances that such situations won't appear and abortion won't be needed.

You do realise that the majority of abortions are by women who already have one or more children right? And that contraceptive failure is a major reason for abortions?

Cause from your post you don't seem to be aware of that and think abortion is just women who had unprotected sex.

Being a married man with three kids, I seriously doubt contraception failure is a major reason for abortions.

Now if you mean they are putting condoms on their heads and over their eyes, I could see that as a failure I guess.

Lack of comprehensive sex education means that people don't learn how to use contraceptives properly; you don't have to put the condom on your head to **** it up.

[WeatherOp]

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow.

by this definition, masturbation is also murder

But make it accessible for everyone like painkillers? You gotta be f***** kidding me. So what? Every teen and adult who was dumb enough to have carefree sex and if something goes wrong just escape the responsibility? At what cost. It's the child who will pay the price, not an idiot who did not predict the results of their actions. That's where the sexual education, condoms and other stuff hits in. And here I agree totally. The more people will learn, the bigger are the chances that such situations won't appear and abortion won't be needed.

You do realise that the majority of abortions are by women who already have one or more children right? And that contraceptive failure is a major reason for abortions?

Cause from your post you don't seem to be aware of that and think abortion is just women who had unprotected sex.

Being a married man with three kids, I seriously doubt contraception failure is a major reason for abortions.

Now if you mean they are putting condoms on their heads and over their eyes, I could see that as a failure I guess.

Lack of comprehensive sex education means that people don't learn how to use contraceptives properly; you don't have to put the condom on your head to **** it up.

No, but you have to try really hard even in that case. It has nothing to do with sex education in any case as the dead simple instructions are on the box. If you don't read them then that is not a failure on the condom, but on you which is unprotected sex. If you can't understand them, then you definitely don't need to be having sex or driving a vehicle for that matter.

[Ghostavo]

Apply this to a large enough population and you're gonna get a significant amount of failures.

[Bobboau]

ok, since this thread is apparently still open...

learn how to deal with responsibility.

ah, so once again it boils down to children should be a punishment for people who have sex outside of the contexts I approve of. glad to see a bit more confirmation for my bias on that.

[666maslo666]

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow.

I dont consider the second one to be murder. "Killing" potential persons is just not morally wrong at all. A being must already exist for it to be murder. Using a condom or even refusing sex leads to one less person alive in this world, too. Is it murder? Of course not. Think of all the future children you are killing right now by not having sex. You murderer..

There is some point in development where the developing foetus actually (not just potentially) becomes a person, and I believe it has to do with higher brain development. A bunch of unsentient cells dont deserve the same rights as you and me.

[Grizzly]

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow.

by this definition, masturbation is also murder.

Wouldn't miscarriages be manslaughter in that same vein?

ANyway: Abortion is not a decision that people make lightly. You don't think that a woman who is considering abortion internally considers or externally discusses the viewpoints we are discussing here? Because she does. Her doctors will talk to her about it, too, simply because quite a few women who had abortions have later struggled with their choices, or have faced social stigma for having made such a decision. I do not think there should be laws that make that process even more difficult. Rather, society should ensure that as few people as possible have to make that decision at all.

[karajorma]

Being a married man with three kids, I seriously doubt contraception failure is a major reason for abortions

You'd be massively wrong then. It's not the biggest reason but quite a few abortions are carried out by people who used contraception rigorously. A 99% success rate doesn't mean that much when we're dealing with something that every couple are doing.


Oh and if you're going to talk about talk about contraceptive failure, it's probably not a good idea to mention having 3 kids before claiming you understand contraceptives. You invite way too many cheap shots.

[zookeeper]

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow.

That doesn't make any sense. Obviously you don't think that killing a living being means murder.

Also the abortion debate isn't primarily about legal definitions anyway, but about whether it's wrong or not, so insisting on applying this or that legal label on it isn't going to do anything.

[Col.Hornet]

Abortion is a murder. No matter the reasons, no matter the stage. You either kill a living being or a material from which that being can grow.

by this definition, masturbation is also murder.

Wouldn't miscarriages be manslaughter in that same vein?

I wasn't precise enough. By "material" I meant inseminated combination of semen and ovum.
You can't grow a human being from semen itself <not now at least xD>, so no
To be honest I could tolerate abortion if it could be executed before the nervous system develops. At least it would have been painless. 

Misscarriage is also not. It's an organism's reaction which can be caused by many reasons, mostly independent from us. Yet abortion is a concious act. And here's the hook.

And, for the record. I'm not any radical "prolife fighter" is somebody is worried I try to make my statements based on my own perception.

#Zookeeper I should have written "human being" if that's what you meant.
If an concious abortion of a pregnancy in for example advanced development is not a murder, then we're done here.

[zookeeper]

#Zookeeper I should have written "human being" if that's what you meant.

Yes. Because, you know, the 4-celled dog embryo vs the 4-celled human embryo from the previous thread. There's no difference between them which would have relevance to whether it's ok to kill it or not, aside from magical thinking.

If an concious abortion of a pregnancy in for example advanced development is not a murder, then we're done here.

I don't care that much about what gets labeled murder in a discussion and what doesn't, as long as no one makes it into a circular argument and starts saying that it's bad/wrong because it's murder, or feigns outrage when someone for example points out that the new wider definition of murder simply makes not all murders be wrong. But as we know, someone always does.

[WeatherOp]

Being a married man with three kids, I seriously doubt contraception failure is a major reason for abortions

You'd be massively wrong then. It's not the biggest reason but quite a few abortions are carried out by people who used contraception rigorously. A 99% success rate doesn't mean that much when we're dealing with something that every couple are doing.


Oh and if you're going to talk about talk about contraceptive failure, it's probably not a good idea to mention having 3 kids before claiming you understand contraceptives. You invite way too many cheap shots.

Yeah, failures will happen, just the law of averages. However when you consider a 99% success rate and then you consider only a handful of those will get an abortion, the idea that a huge number of abortions are a result of failure is unlikely.

They can take cheap shots if they want too, but we got pregnant with all three when not using contraception. Otherwise we are 100%. Our three kids were not planned not prevented. We understood how it all works beforehand. That said, I've got to throw a shameless plug that my kids are awesome.

[karajorma]

Yeah, failures will happen, just the law of averages. However when you consider a 99% success rate and then you consider only a handful of those will get an abortion, the idea that a huge number of abortions are a result of failure is unlikely.

Look up some statistics, then talk to me. Cause right now you're just talking about something you clearly don't understand. Last time I looked it was over 10% of abortions. And if you don't feel that is a large number of abortions, you've just lost any right to complain about abortion.

[WeatherOp]

Yeah, failures will happen, just the law of averages. However when you consider a 99% success rate and then you consider only a handful of those will get an abortion, the idea that a huge number of abortions are a result of failure is unlikely.

Look up some statistics, then talk to me. Cause right now you're just talking about something you clearly don't understand. Last time I looked it was over 10% of abortions. And if you don't feel that is a large number of abortions, you've just lost any right to complain about abortion.

Come on now, if ten percent is correct which I'm sure is still fudged high due to the fact that some people would no doubt rather claim their contraception failed than admit they failed.

But even at ten percent, that is not a "major" reason for abortions. Personally I was thinking between three and five percent on my last post. If we say a cancer had a ten percent chance of killing you, major wouldn't be the word 99% of people would use. No doubt ten percent is a lot of abortions, but contraception failure is not a major cause even by your number.

[Grizzly]

Actually, if cancer had a 10% chance of killing you, I would still consider this rather major. There are very few ailments that actually have a chance of killing you in the first place with our current medicine.

[WeatherOp]

Actually, if cancer had a 10% chance of killing you, I would still consider this rather major. There are very few ailments that actually have a chance of killing you in the first place with our current medicine.

But as far as cancer goes that would be pretty good odds, right? If a doctor told me that I had cancer, but that I had a 90% chance I would live ten years I would be feeling pretty good. Now if he said I had a 60% chance that wouldn't be so good.

Another way to look at it is if they have a team a 10% chance of an upset, that isn't a major chance by any stretch of the imagination.