[Akalabeth Angel]

What? Did you even watched/read/played anything between EIII and EIV? Anakin was leading the clone assault on the temple, himself killed a bunch of younglings and probably some Jedi too. Then, as Vader, he was hunting Jedi for many years. It'd be strange if PT showed events that took place after PT . But the other SW-universe productions mention that. Ever played The Force Unleashed?

Incidentally, but just for your information, the Force Unleashed isn't canon.
Nothing is canon except for the 7 movies, the animated movie, the Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels. Plus any materials released after 2014
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

Thus, robot-legs Maul is canon. Blue man Thrawn is not.

And no. Haven't played the force unleashed. Looks more like Prototype then Star Wars

[Macielos]

While I understand that Star Wars is an emotional topic for many of us, and I'm all for having spirited debates about it, I need everyone to do a better job of being civil.  I'd really rather not have to delete anybody's posts here, but if I see any further personal attacks (or anything even resembling it) I will do so.  Consider yourselves warned.

Now...carry on, and may the force be with you.

Ok, sorry. We'll restrain ourselves not to use ad personam arguments.

#1 We're not in an alternate universe. We're in a Galaxy Far Far Away
#2 If this is your mentality in this discussion then there's really no point in having it. If you're going to wantonly disregard the meaning of a word then you're going to wantonly disregard anything you see as not concrete in order to maintain your own opinion.

A "galaxy far far away" is a galaxy developing independently from ours, not a future of the Milky Way, therefore words used in SW could've been originated from very different forms than ours. So the argument that the word "crusade" used in this context does not match its historical meaning is invalid.

Critical analysis require a little more reliance on reality, and a lot less reliance on your own imagination.

The problem is some facts are simply not stated clearly in SW films, therefore there is much room for individual viewer's imagination. Leia's plot is a good example, as it is not explained clearly in NH if she knew she was adopted. When in RotJ Luke asks Leia about her mother, her memories may refer her foster mother, Queen Breha of Alderaan, not Padme, as Luke tells her he's her brother a few moments later. If she didn't know that before, "you served my father" is a mismatch, but "do you remember your mother" is not. If she knew, it's the opposite.

As it was said a few posts earlier, films rarely explain things as clearly as you would want.

Incidentally, but just for your information, the Force Unleashed isn't canon.
Nothing is canon except for the 7 movies, the animated movie, the Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels. Plus any materials released after 2014

Ok, let's take fully canonical SW: Rebels which includes the Empire and Vader hunting down the last Jedi. I think there is a consensus in all, both canon and non-canon SW stories and films that Jedi hunt took place EIII and EIV and that Vader, emperor's right hand, was one of its top executors.

You argued that Vader was not murdering Jedi in RotS apart from Jedi temple assault. He did it between RotS and NH, throughout the 18 years from turning to dark side to NH. It would be strange if PT included event that took place after PT . There is no conflict between PT and OT here.

[Akalabeth Angel]

A "galaxy far far away" is a galaxy developing independently from ours, not a future of the Milky Way, therefore words used in SW could've been originated from very different forms than ours. So the argument that the word "crusade" used in this context does not match its historical meaning is invalid.

You're grasping at straws you realize right?
Regardless of what language we're speaking, the person who wrote the script spoke english and they chose that word for a specific reason.  It's arrogant for a viewer to assume that he knows the author's intent better than the author does. And yes I realize the irony of that statement but we're not exploring author intent we're exploring how concrete information of the past in OT has been portrayed in the PT.

The problem is some facts are simply not stated clearly in SW films, therefore there is much room for individual viewer's imagination. Leia's plot is a good example, as it is not explained clearly in NH if she knew she was adopted. When in RotJ Luke asks Leia about her mother, her memories may refer her foster mother, Queen Breha of Alderaan, not Padme, as Luke tells her he's her brother a few moments later. If she didn't know that before, "you served my father" is a mismatch, but "do you remember your mother" is not. If she knew, it's the opposite.

Leia isn't adopted.  In RotJ it's clearly implied that she knew her mother as a small child.   That makes Organa at best her step-father. There's nothing to indicate in the films whatsoever that she believes her father is anything but her father.

If she knew Organa was not her father, she would have stated his name not her relationship to him.

As it was said a few posts earlier, films rarely explain things as clearly as you would want.

Only if you're looking for ambiguity. If you take things at face value and believe the characters intent then there's no ambiguity at all.
Films are written to convey information to the audience with the least amount of time possible.  Ambiguous information is self-defeating. No person who watched Star Wars for the first time would have any reason to doubt Leia's words about her father.  You're frankly viewing that sentence in the context of the prequels which is simply incorrect.

When Leia says her father. You can view it in one of three ways and in a specific order:
1. In the context of Episode IV alone
2. In the context of Episode IV + Return of the Jedi where Luke reveals Vader is her father
3. In the context of the previous two plus Revenge of the Sith

There's zero indication in 1 or 2 that Leia believes she's adopted. And #3 is the problem which is the whole contention.

Ok, let's take fully canonical SW: Rebels which includes the Empire and Vader hunting down the last Jedi. I think there is a consensus in all, both canon and non-canon SW stories and films that Jedi hunt took place EIII and EIV and that Vader, emperor's right hand, was one of its top executors.

You argued that Vader was not murdering Jedi in RotS apart from Jedi temple assault. He did it between RotS and NH, throughout the 18 years from turning to dark side to NH. It would be strange if PT included event that took place after PT . There is no conflict between PT and OT here.

You do realize how paradoxical your statement is?
There's no conflict between OT and the PT because of things not in the PT? No.
And for one, howabout the fact the Obi Wan is on Tatooine and not aware of what's happening to the other Jedi? Both he and Yoda hermitted up.

Regardless it's par for the course for other media to try and explain the failings of Lucas's PT work. That's standard fare. Undoubtedly the clone wars tries to portray Obi Wan and Anakin more as friends as well to make up for the failings of Attack of the Clones. 

Personally I believe the movies should stand on their own. Other media should provide supplementary material, not necessary material.  If outside information is necessary that means the movie has a problem.

[Aesaar]

Right, because those were totally treated the same way.  It's not like it took Luke two movies to actually fight with a lightsaber (a fight he lost).  Nope, it's exactly the same.  Because Luke could fly an X-Wing, it's perfectly ok for someone to have instant Jedi skills the moment they pick up a lightsaber.  Doesn't cheapen Luke's arc at all.  Nope.

He wasted his time going to see Yoda, didn't he?  Becoming a Jedi is obviously really easy.

You're comparing Luke's evolution as a swordfighter with Reys, but that's not the comparison I was making.

ANH tells us that Luke is a gifted pilot. It doesn't show us, mind you, it alludes to the fact by having Luke play with some toy and have Obi Wan point out that his father was remarkably gifted in that area. There are deleted scenes where Luke talks about wanting to join the imperial Academy to become a pilot, but that's all there is to it. If we apply the same standards you're using to judge Rey's ability to fight with swords, then the fact that Luke gets his own X-Wing and manages to survive in a rather hostile environment, then we see that he too seems to be "instantly skilled the moment he grabs the flight stick".

Now, TFA actually takes the time to show that Rey is capable in close quarters fighting. At the moment she grabs the saber, her abilities as a fighter are better established than Luke's piloting skill when the battle for Yavin starts, and yet you take offence at Rey? I find that a bit disingenuous, really.

Flying an air/spacecraft doesn't seem to be a terribly special thing in the Star Wars universe.  It's treated like driving a car.  Even Luke, a somewhat poor farmer of a ****hole planet owned one of these.  Sure, moving instantly from flying that to flying a main-line starfighter might be a bit of a stretch, but it isn't that much of a leap since, as mentioned before, Luke's skills are talked up a lot.  It isn't a terribly special skill, and Luke was also flying with a droid specifically meant to assist in flying and maintaining fighters in combat conditions, and he never actually goes up against any enemy pilots one on one in ANH (unlike Rey flying the Falcon in this movie).

Lightsabers were always treated as being special.  Again, Luke doesn't use one in real combat until the end of ESB (after he's been trained by both Obi-Wan and Yoda).  It's never been a weapon you just pick up and use, yet Finn and Rey manage to put up a good fight the very first time they pick one up.  Same goes with the Force and Rey's instantaneous mastery of force persuasion (something Luke didn't use until ROTJ).

And that's why this whole thing annoys me.  In the span of one movie, Rey does pretty much everything Luke does over the course of the original trilogy.  She's an ace pilot with the Falcon (outflying two TIE fighters the first time she was at the controls), she learns to use the force and a lightsaber hours after she learns they exist, and she then wins against a Dark Jedi.  It just completely cheapens Luke's character arc and makes her feel like a bit of a Mary Sue.  Which is a shame because she'd be a great character if the script didn't dictate that she must win at everything.

[Mongoose]

The problem I have with people saying "Scrubs like Finn and Rey shouldn't stand a chance against a fully-trained Dark Jedi" is that it glosses over what's actually going on in that scene.  First off, Kylo is in seriously bad shape even at the start of that fight.  He's just suffered a massive wound, and  even more pressingly, he's no doubt in all sorts of emotional turmoil given the confrontation that just happened.  The only times we see Kylo, or really any Jedi, pull off notable feats is when they're emotionally focused, whether in calmness or anger.  Kylo's nowhere near that state, so expecting him to do the likes of freeze a blaster bolt (so badass) isn't gonna happen.  And the fight itself?  Sure, Finn holds his own for a minute or two, no doubt drawing on his own combat training, but he gets royally ****ed up and nearly killed in short order.  And Rey?  I wouldn't call most of what she was doing "fighting" so much as "running the hell away."  She's constantly backpedaling, flailing away, putting more effort into getting some distance from Kylo than actually striking at him.  It isn't until that final moment where she instinctively calls on the Force that she can be said to have the upper hand.  Before that, I don't think she was really making out much better than Luke did against Vader in Cloud City, and that's keeping in mind that Vader was a far stronger Jedi than Kylo.

As for the broader point, it's made apparent early on that Rey has a powerful natural affinity for the Force, to the point where simply touching Luke's lightsaber provokes an intense vision in her.  Whether you choose to interpret her piloting skill in light of that, or just as an inbuilt talent, is up to you, though keep in mind that the only reason she shook those TIEs at the beginning is because she had an intimate grasp of the local terrain.  Also keep in mind that Rey apparently grew up hearing stories about Jedi in general, and Luke in particular.  Her fending off Kylo's mental probing (that scene just made me feel dirty) was pure instinct, but after she had a chance to stop and think, she must have remembered tales of "Jedi mind tricks" and started to put two and two together.  Untrained or not, a powerful Force user being able to overwhelm a weak mind hardly seems that far-fetched.  I mean I guess you can follow that up with the thought that Rey being that naturally strong with the Force makes her a Sue anyway, but at that point you'd have to level the same complaint at Luke being able to pull off a physics-defying torpedo shot that was impossible even for a targeting computer with no formal training whatsoever himself.  Plus, given Rey's heavily-implied lineage (whichever way you lean with it), she's just picking up the family business.

[Akalabeth Angel]

And that's why this whole thing annoys me.  In the span of one movie, Rey does pretty much everything Luke does over the course of the original trilogy. 

The movie is basically a bunch of references

Death Star: Check
Death Star Trench Run: Check
Deactivate Tractor Beam before encounter / Shield Sabotage Team: Check
"I sense someone" & "I Am your father": Check
Desert World, Yaavin World, Coruscant, Artic World: Check
"My Love Just got Kidnapped": Check
Obi Wan / Yoda: Check
Millenium Captured, Fending off Tie Fighters & Flying in Tight Spaces: Check
"There is a threat in their attack" Officer: Check
Spooky Jedi Cave Vision: Check
Mos Eisley Cantina: Check
People After Han for debts: Check
Analying Data & Briefing: Check
Hidding in the Millenium Floor before being boarded: Check
Droid with Sought-After, Secret Data: Check
Alderan Go Boom & Yaavin under threat: Check
End movie on cliff Hangar: Check
Mystery Hologram Boss with circular broadcast platform: Check
Go save my sith apprentice who just got his ass kicked: Check

Then in addition you've got out-of-Star Wars stuff:
Nazi Address
Vulcan implosion planet from Star Trek 2009
Hiroshima / Sheridan's wife screaming

etcetera

This is so little in this movie that isn't directly taken from the other star wars movies, even the prequels.

[swashmebuckle]

SW has always been very much pieced together from other movies, and I think that whatever directors follow on with these are going to have to find some more diverse source material, as that was the big strength of the original. You really lose the spark when it's reduced to self reference as opposed to ideas from truly different worlds being combined.

I kinda doubt that Disney will hire a director capable of doing that seeing as how they're making billions treading this very conservative path, but maybe after enough meh SW movies have come out (they're doing one every year!) their returns will decline to the point where they will be forced to try different things to squeeze more money out of it. That's my new hope.

[Aesaar]

The problem I have with people saying "Scrubs like Finn and Rey shouldn't stand a chance against a fully-trained Dark Jedi" is that it glosses over what's actually going on in that scene.  First off, Kylo is in seriously bad shape even at the start of that fight.  He's just suffered a massive wound, and  even more pressingly, he's no doubt in all sorts of emotional turmoil given the confrontation that just happened.  The only times we see Kylo, or really any Jedi, pull off notable feats is when they're emotionally focused, whether in calmness or anger.  Kylo's nowhere near that state, so expecting him to do the likes of freeze a blaster bolt (so badass) isn't gonna happen.  And the fight itself?  Sure, Finn holds his own for a minute or two, no doubt drawing on his own combat training, but he gets royally ****ed up and nearly killed in short order.  And Rey?  I wouldn't call most of what she was doing "fighting" so much as "running the hell away."  She's constantly backpedaling, flailing away, putting more effort into getting some distance from Kylo than actually striking at him.  It isn't until that final moment where she instinctively calls on the Force that she can be said to have the upper hand.  Before that, I don't think she was really making out much better than Luke did against Vader in Cloud City, and that's keeping in mind that Vader was a far stronger Jedi than Kylo.

The issue isn't that it makes sense for her to beat him.  You can come up with a dozen handwaves for why that could happen, but it doesn't make it any better.  If a TIE fighter got shot down and crashed on Kylo Ren during the fight and killed him instantly, it would still make perfect sense in-universe. 

She shouldn't win that fight, and she shouldn't be fighting with a lightsaber proficiently because she hasn't earned these things.  Luke did.  Luke went through two movies before he could fight with a lightsaber competently.  He worked for that, and that's what made the first Luke-Vader duel so good: it shows you how far Luke's come.  Flying a fighter was never treated as a significant step.  Being a pilot isn't the end-state of Luke's character arc, and it stops mattering the moment ANH ends because of the very action that ends the movie: he uses the Force for the first time.  That was the significant step, not him being a pro pilot (how many TIEs did he kill in that battle anyway?  One?).  And the next movie pretty much revolves around his gradual shift from his blaster pistol to his lightsaber as his go-to weapon.

Rey gets none of that.  Her wielding a lightsaber, or using force persuasion, or beating Kylo Ren aren't victories she earned.  They were just handed to her by plot contrivance, and in doing so, those achievements were stripped of value.  And that weakens Luke's arc.  You can't just handwave that away by saying she's special, or Ren was wounded or he's a ****ty duelist. 

This isn't a plot issue.  It's a story issue.

[Crashdown117]

She shouldn't win that fight, and she shouldn't be fighting with a lightsaber proficiently because she hasn't earned these things.  Luke did.  Luke went through two movies before he could fight with a lightsaber competently.  He worked for that, and that's what made the first Luke-Vader duel so good: it shows you how far Luke's come.  Flying a fighter was never treated as a significant step.  Being a pilot isn't the end-state of Luke's character arc, and it stops mattering the moment ANH ends because of the very action that ends the movie: he uses the Force for the first time.  That was the significant step, not him being a pro pilot (how many TIEs did he kill in that battle anyway?  One?).  And the next movie pretty much revolves around his gradual shift from his blaster pistol to his lightsaber as his go-to weapon.

Thank you for that one. Just thank you.

[Dragon]

Just saw it. Not a bad movie, if a bit disjointed. Regarding Rey vs. Kylo Ren, I actually feel this had worked, though obvious chosen one is obvious. It might have been better if her "destiny" was a bit less hamfisted. That said, apart from the first scene, I got a feeling that Kylo Ren was actually a very crappy "Dark Jedi". He wasn't well trained at all, he just thought he was. Aside from the scene with the blaster bolt, he's not seen doing anything that would hint he's anywhere near OT Jedi. Indeed, quite the opposite, and it's shown he knows it. Kylo Ren was not a proper Dark Jedi. He was a very angry wannabe who had some basic training, nothing more. Notice how he's tearing up everything around him, wasting his energy on trashing his own base. Vader, on the other hand, was the epitome of tranquil fury, killing people for failure, but otherwise showing emotion only in extreme situations, or to use the Dark Side powers. When we see experienced Dark Jedi (Dooku, Vader, Palpatine), they're quite collected, saving their fury for the times they use their powers. It is very clear that Kylo Ren has barely any control over himself, thus probably preventing him from being a truly effective darksider, as opposed to pulling an odd telekinetic trick when he's still reasonably collected. I'd expect anyone with actual experience, force powers and fencing experience to be able to wipe the floor with Rey, despite her quaterstaff training.

As for what Millennium Falcon did, I think it was actually quite well done. Both exiting the hangar directly into hyperspace and going through the shield are treated like utterly crazy things to do. From what it looked like, they might have actually started to exit right outside the atmosphere (maybe even outside the shield, given that he said they were going to go through at lightspeed) and got into it during the deceleration phase. Remember, Earth's atmosphere is pretty thin at 100km already and 400km is high enough for ISS to fly. In space terms, 100km isn't a lot, and they definitely were going straight down. Of course, that's exactly why it was such a risky maneuver, but come on, it's friggin' Han Solo. Probably the only pilot good enough to pull this of and the only one mad enough to even think about trying it. The in-universe reaction among the pilot community would've probably been similar as on this forum. I just hope nobody thinks to make it a regularly used trick later on.

Other than that, ANH rehashed. Lazy plot, but "The Hidden Fortress" is not a story that gets boring after being told once. I liked the new characters and especially the new stormtroopers. The TIE fighters were a bit odd (dunno what was the big idea behind having a gunner in one of those dinky things), but I suppose it did work out. Seeing one of them piloted by the main characters was a welcome change. They also did a better job of making First Order look like an Evil Empire, something which the Galactic Empire didn't really convey all that well. You could actually root for the Empire (Vader and Tarkin could be pretty much directly blamed on the evil stuff we see it do), but I'd imagine the Order isn't going to have quite as many fans.

One thing I'm hoping they'll do in ep. 8 would be giving Rey a double-bladed lightsaber. Going to it from the quaterstaff (which with she's quite handy already) seems like a logical transition. For some reason, I just "see" her using this kind of weapon.

[deathspeed]

I had been avoiding this thread but I just saw this movie.  I went there hoping for an enjoyable experience, and I was not disappointed!

I got the "soft-reboot of ANH" vibe, which didn't really bother me.  I did wonder a bit about Rey's piloting and light saber skills, but chalked it up to the force being so strong in her helping her natural skills (piloting small craft and using her staff).  For Finn I chalked his skills up to his life-long stormtrooper training.  And Han Solo is Alpha 1, so he can do anything in the Millenium Falcon that he can think of.

[Dragon]

Provided the Falcon feels like cooperating on that particular day, of course. Pity ol' Solo ended up dead, Rey now has some pretty big shoes to fill. Fortunately, she still has Chewie.

Lightsabers in general don't seem to be "Force user-only" weapons, like EU has often depicted them, but simply impractical in hands of someone who's not fast enough to deflect blaster bolts with them. Finn probably had better qualifications to handle a lightsaber (thanks to electrostaff training he likely got as Stormtrooper) than Rey. Neither was anywhere close to where Luke was during his duel with Vader, but then Kylo Ren wasn't a particularly powerful darksider, either. In fact, he was quite pathetic when you think about it. That said, given the state he was left in, the next time he appears he's going to be a lot closer to Vader in at least one way... (TBH, this was probably intended).

[Akalabeth Angel]

The problem isn't that Ray or Finn can use a lightsaber, the problem is that they make Kyle Ren more powerful than Vader and then have him lose/struggle against them. If they just portray him as being a bit **** himself it would have been fine but when the guy can effortless stop a blaster bolt and read the minds of people he's not even focused on, then it becomes a problem.

In fact that's another thing I found, un-star wars like in this film.  In RotJ sure there were moments where the emperor and vader could read Luke Skywalker to an extent but in this movie it's more on the level of vulcan mind melds or Psi-Cop interrogations  or something.

Basically they always feel the need to one-up what came before. Instead of a Death Star shooting a laser, now it's a planet which consumes a sun to shoot a lightspeed-level beam which magically splits up into 3-4 different beams and destroys several targets simultaneously.

It's kind of silly.

Then they want to incorporate re-used elements from the previous movies and unsurprisingly some of those things don't match up.

[MatthTheGeek]

the problem is that they make Kyle Ren more powerful than Vader

Wat.

[zookeeper]

the problem is that they make Kyle Ren more powerful than Vader

Wat.

What wat? That's the only conclusion you can arrive to from those things, as far as Force powers are concerned anyway.

[MatthTheGeek]

What wat? That's the only conclusion you can arrive to from those things, as far as Force powers are concerned anyway.

Double wat.

Since when having different powers makes you more powerful. A low-level cleric is not more powerful than a high-level warrior, even though the warrior cannot use support spells.

I mean, it's spelled out multiple times during the film than Ren isn't as powerful as Vader, and that he's trying to become as powerful as Vader.

Guys. Srsly.

[Crashdown117]

the problem is that they make Kyle Ren more powerful than Vader

Wat.

What wat? That's the only conclusion you can arrive to from those things, as far as Force powers are concerned anyway.

Wait a minute. Ren more powerful than Vader???
What does the guy do in TFA?
He breaks somebody's will in an interrogation cell. Vader/Anakin is able to do this, too. It's basically just the dark side version of Ben Kenobi's "These are not the droids you are looking for" seen in ANH, so it's a rather basic Force power IMO.
He stops a blaster beam in mid-air. OK, Vader "catches" it with his hand and shows us his palm unwounded in ESB, but still.
He shows off some quite good lightsaber skills. Vader fights Luke twice, once in each ESB and ROTJ respectively, but he doesn't lose the first fight. And he actually has to fight Ben before killing him.

Conclusion: Kylo Ren is trying to be Galaxy's Next Darth Vader (evidenced by Vader's old helmet/mask) and since his training has not yet been completed he cannot be more powerful than a fully trained Sith lord who was the one to bring balance to the Force, the chosen one. (Yes, I am referring to prequel content here) Is he about equal to Vader then? Not sure, but maybe. One day for sure he will be.

it's spelled out multiple times during the film than Ren isn't as powerful as Vader, and that he's trying to become as powerful as Vader.

[zookeeper]

Come on now. If you have someone freeze a laser bolt in mid-air and keep it there without even concentrating, then they're clearly being portrayed as more powerful than Vader as far as Force powers go. Whether they're portrayed as weaker later on doesn't change that.

[MatthTheGeek]

If you have someone freeze a laser bolt in mid-air and keep it there without even concentrating, then they're clearly being portrayed as more powerful than Vader as far as Force powers go.

Ok, just so you know, repeating the same thing again without any additional reasoning doesn't make it more true. This premise does not lead to that conclusion.

[Dragon]

The blaster bolt scene was strange, but everything after that makes it clear that Kylo Ren is nothing more than a pathetic wannabe. He does have a few tricks under his belt, but aside from the bolt, what does he do? He does mess with peoples' minds (not hard at all, seeing as Rey does manage it without any training) and even there he fails the first time he tries it on someone with strong will. He throws people around, which was shown to be a basic Jedi skill (which he probably learned back when he trained with Luke). And... that's it. He can't focus his emotions at all and is shown to be easily enraged to the point of trashing his own base. Contrast with Vader, who could apply his Force Choke over about a significant distance (from his quarters to Executor's bridge) and was very collected even when he was enraged.

Kylo Ren is outright stated (by himself, no less!) to be inferior to Vader. IMO, the lightsaber fight only serves to highlight how much he actually sucks, seeing that he uses no force powers beyond the opening throw (presumably being too angry to do so) and even his lightsaber skills seem lacking. Admittedly the comparisons are crazy PT stunts and slow, very technical combat scenes from the OT, but in the end, Vader still wiped the floor with Luke while being handicapped by his cyborg body. Kylo Ren lost to a Stormtrooper and one completely untrained girl.