[est1895]

More News in Sweden!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2dn17cDlHs

[Bobboau]

Is that in reference to the 'youth festival' thing where the cops didn't want to let anyone know there was a rape mob because it might help the Swedish Democrats?

[666maslo666]

Ah yes. The usual Pegida "The press really has it out for us" song and dance. Every single time someone writes something about Pegida that shows them being something other than a front for neonazis, it's always the press lying about them. Never mind the Hitler salutes or the NPD people accumulating around them, it's definitely just the press spreading lies.

The press does have it out for Pegida. For some reason, leftists tend to gravitate towards working in media, and thus the media is kinda biased against the right. That is my observation so far.

At the same time, various extremists do gravitate towards Pegida for the same reason why leftist extremists gravitate towards die Linke. It is the largest political group at that part of political spectrum. Is die Linke just a front for Stalinists, too? I wouldnt call any of them extremist unless their official party line is extremist, too. Basically, when Pegida begins to support concentration camps, then it will be warranted to call them Nazis. When they only want tight immigration control, then they are not extremists, IMHO.

[The E]

At the same time, various extremists do gravitate towards Pegida for the same reason why leftist extremists gravitate towards die Linke. It is the largest political group at that part of political spectrum. Is die Linke just a front for Stalinists, too? I wouldnt call any of them extremist unless their official party line is extremist, too. Basically, when Pegida begins to support concentration camps, then it will be warranted to call them Nazis. When they only want tight immigration control, then they are not extremists, IMHO.

However, the radical left in Germany is not as inclined towards violence as the radical right is, and Pegida is certainly more extremist than even the CSU of old.

[666maslo666]

However, the radical left in Germany is not as inclined towards violence as the radical right is, and Pegida is certainly more extremist than even the CSU of old.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? Various anarchists can get quite violent..

The German Interior Ministry reported recently that the far-right accounted for most politically motivated crimes with 17,042 acts in 2013, down 3.3% from 2012. The vast majority of those crimes were not of violence but of "propaganda," such as displaying the swastika or other banned symbols. Violent crimes by these groups dropped less than 1% to 837.

Yet, leftist crimes rose 40% to 8,673 acts in 2013, nearly half of which were property damage. Violent crimes by leftists rose 28% to 1,659 – largely altercations with police and right-wing groups during demonstrations.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/05/07/leftist-violence-rise-germany/8662871/

Being more on the right than CSU still only means you are center-right, IMHO. I wouldnt call that extremism at all. Maybe in Germany it is because all the parties are so far on the left when it comes to migration that even a center-right stance is considered extremism, but that is an artifact of German politics, not an objective judgement.

Objectively speaking, far right is characterised by a total ban on immigration, while far left is characterised by open borders, or abolition of borders. Objectively speaking, there is no politically active far right in Germany, while far left is in power. When it comes to migration, that is. So forgive me when I consider this rhetoric about Pegida being like the Nazis and bigger threat than the left extremists a load of BS.

[PeterX]

More and more so called vigilantes are forming. The violence will rise up.

 

So forgive me when I consider this rhetoric about Pegida being like the Nazis and bigger threat than the left extremists a load of BS.

The justice must work more effective or we will read more about self justice.
Peter

[The E]

Look at the target selection here: When the radical left gets violent, it's directed at the radical right. When the radical right gets violent, it's directed at immigrants and other bystanders. Tell me, which one of these is more dangerous to J. Random Citizen?

Also, objectively speaking, you have no idea of german politics. Merkel has been criticized for her policies by members of her own party in public, which would strike you as uncharacteristically aggressive if you knew anything about CDU/CSU internal politics. The only reason she's not getting removed from office right now is because she spent the last decade removing anyone who could replace her from the inner circle of her party. The CDU has noone in their ranks with enough political capital and broad appeal to actually succeed her.

As for Pegida being the biggest threat in german politics: They most definitely are. Nativist political movements are on the rise this decade, Pegida and AfD are Germany's expression of this idea. In the long term, closing borders will not work: If current climate trends continue, the middle east and northern Africa (and parts of southern Europe) will become inhospitable; If you think the current refugee crisis is a big problem, wait a decade for water wars to break out in earnest in the middle east. Way I see it, either we learn how to deal with these situations now, or we get into situations where we will literally have to shoot people at the border, a situation I personally find unpalatable.
Pegida is an expression of uninformed rage and fear driven by a media environment that values shock over information and by demagogues who get off on being in front of cameras while at the same time condemning those who hold them. The goals they have are reactionary in the base sense of the world: They are lashing out against a world noone taught them about, one in which history has not ended yet and where scary unaccountable forces are working against them. They seek to slay the Dragon of immigration so that they may rest easy at night again, unaware that said Dragon is not now and has never been quite as scary or dangerous or destructive as they are being told.

Above all, the question I have to ask myself is whether or not I want to live in a world where my freedom of movement is curtailed by the workings of some xenophobic asshole who believes me and my kin to be unable to integrate into his society. The answer is no, of course.

[666maslo666]

Look at the target selection here: When the radical left gets violent, it's directed at the radical right. When the radical right gets violent, it's directed at immigrants and other bystanders. Tell me, which one of these is more dangerous to J. Random Citizen?

Also, objectively speaking, you have no idea of german politics. Merkel has been criticized for her policies by members of her own party in public, which would strike you as uncharacteristically aggressive if you knew anything about CDU/CSU internal politics. The only reason she's not getting removed from office right now is because she spent the last decade removing anyone who could replace her from the inner circle of her party. The CDU has noone in their ranks with enough political capital and broad appeal to actually succeed her.

As for Pegida being the biggest threat in german politics: They most definitely are. Nativist political movements are on the rise this decade, Pegida and AfD are Germany's expression of this idea. In the long term, closing borders will not work: If current climate trends continue, the middle east and northern Africa (and parts of southern Europe) will become inhospitable; If you think the current refugee crisis is a big problem, wait a decade for water wars to break out in earnest in the middle east. Way I see it, either we learn how to deal with these situations now, or we get into situations where we will literally have to shoot people at the border, a situation I personally find unpalatable.
Pegida is an expression of uninformed rage and fear driven by a media environment that values shock over information and by demagogues who get off on being in front of cameras while at the same time condemning those who hold them. The goals they have are reactionary in the base sense of the world: They are lashing out against a world noone taught them about, one in which history has not ended yet and where scary unaccountable forces are working against them. They seek to slay the Dragon of immigration so that they may rest easy at night again, unaware that said Dragon is not now and has never been quite as scary or dangerous or destructive as they are being told.

And when immigrants get violent, it is directed at random bystanders, too. And statistics show they do like to get violent. That makes them a danger to J. Random Citizen and as legitimate target in the eyes of the radical just as radicals fighting among themselves.

Current climate trends are only another argument to increase border control, not decrease it. Because if your pessimistic predictions come true (thats a big if), we will need it in the future. Europe cannot accept so many people, because then it will turn into Africa itself..

Above all, the question I have to ask myself is whether or not I want to live in a world where my freedom of movement is curtailed by the workings of some xenophobic asshole who believes me and my kin to be unable to integrate into his society. The answer is no, of course.

But your and mine freedom of movement obviously should be curtailed by whether we can integrate into host society or not. The wellbeing of a host society is more important than my freedom of movement. To state otherwise seems extremely self-centered and rude to me. When I migrate, I am just a guest, and must act like it. Or get the boot. The answer is yes, of course.

[666maslo666]

I'd like to see statistics that matched low-income low-education germans to the refugees. I'm pretty sure that having rich germans, higher middle class within the "german averages" and so on will bias your conclusions against refugees that, by fiat, have nothing at all as a starting point. IOW, I'm still unimpressed by apples vs oranges comparisons.

Importing poverty is bad in itself, so I am not really interested in this distinction. The only factor I can think of that should be accounted for is age distribution, and that is already accounted for in some of those figures I posted before. But whether some migrants are more criminal due to poverty, or culture, or a combination of the two (most likely), the answer is similar - make the immigration criteria more strict to filter them out.

[The E]

Current climate trends are only another argument to increase border control, not decrease it. Because if your pessimistic predictions come true (thats a big if), we will need it in the future. Europe cannot accept so many people, because then it will turn into Africa itself..

I expect you to be at the border, rifle in hand and ready to shoot, if and when your country decides to close its borders completely. Personally, I do not want this blood on my hands.

But your and mine freedom of movement obviously should be curtailed by whether we can integrate into host society or not. The wellbeing of a host society is more important than my freedom of movement. To state otherwise seems extremely self-centered and rude to me. When I migrate, I am just a guest, and must act like it. Or get the boot. The answer is yes, of course.

And why should I accept it when someone tells me that I cannot enter the country, let alone stay in it, because a few people from the same geographical region with similar cultural background were unable to integrate? That's the world you want to create: One in which you are not judged on your own merits, but by who your parents were, what skin color you have, what language you spoke your first words in and in what manner you pray to your god. I refuse to accept that as a good thing.

[666maslo666]

And why should I accept it when someone tells me that I cannot enter the country, let alone stay in it, because a few people from the same geographical region with similar cultural background were unable to integrate? That's the world you want to create: One in which you are not judged on your own merits, but by who your parents were, what skin color you have, what language you spoke your first words in and in what manner you pray to your god. I refuse to accept that as a good thing.

That is simply the reality of the world we live in. My cultural background, my god (or lack of it, lol), my region, that is a big part of what made me into what I am. You cannot ignore that or you are denying reality. These factors are real and significant.

One thing I want to mention: a country can do a lot merely by discriminating based on income, education, employment, criminal past or country of origin, all factors routinely considered in various immigration point systems around the world. You hardly ever need to discriminate based on things like religion or ethnicity, even tough the option should theoretically be there IMHO. For example, look at Hungary, they succesfully stopped the mass migrant wave without violating any human rights, and yet if I decide to go live there and fullfill all the criteria legally, I could do so and nobody would judge me unfairly at all. The problem with current immigration policies in (western) Europe is not really the policies themselves, (although they should be hardened somewhat and some things concerning refugees should be reinterpreted), the problem is lack of enforcement and teeth behind the laws themselves. You dont need to "ban all muslims" to remedy that.

[Mikes]

What is worrying is ... that after you start looking in earnest, the whole picture more and more starts to look like a systemic issue of looking away and underreporting crime committed by certain ethnic groups that reaches back several years.

"Deutschland im Blaulicht: Notruf einer Polizistin" (http://www.amazon.de/Deutschland-Blaulicht-Notruf-einer-Polizistin/dp/3492060242/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452613422&sr=8-1&keywords=deutschland+im+blaulicht)
and "Das Ende der Geduld" (http://www.amazon.de/Geduld-Konsequent-gegen-jugendliche-Gewaltt%C3%A4ter/dp/3451302047/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452613490&sr=8-1&keywords=Das+Ende+der+Geduld) for instance have been rather shocking eye openers.

Frankly... i was not aware of city parts in major cities that are in the hand of huge family/clan structures (including their own "justices of peace" that pass sentences in circumvention of the official German legal system) where the police avoids going unless in overwhelming force before i started digging. (Although not surprising as I don t even live in the same federal states and not in a major city either.) And those above publications aren't right wing lunatic, rather the contrary, Tania Kambouri. a German policewoman who is a former greek immigrant and Kirsten Heisig, a quite hard working judge for juvenile crimes (dead by now, supposedly suicide, ... coincidentially whether it was suicide is still controversial - and that was about 5 years ago where she laid a finger on pretty much exactly the issues we see exploding now - mad lol).

Add to that rather catastrophic working and manpower conditions for the police in major cities like even Berlin as reported here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2_xWOjIzYU and it starts to paint a pretty grim picture.

So what gives: Underreporting, looking away and a weak police force, allowing a kind of muslimic background "mafia/clan/family" structure to thrive and entrench in several major cities, up to a point where they can locally challenge police forces and win, unless a concerted effort with several dozen policemen is organized, which is not always possible, which means many crimes (and pretty much all minor crimes) go unreported and unpoliced, which allows a parallel "justices of peace" system to be established, further cutting off the groups living in those city areas from mainstream society. And you pretty much have the whole deal right there, in the middle of Germany, within those communities: From forced marriage to occasional honor killings (selection of known cases: http://www.ehrenmord.de/doku/fuenfzehn/doku_2015.php), the whole deal. Entirely unpoliced and seperate from the actual state justice system. Oh yeah, up to open Muslim racism against Germans, on German schools, where German children are suddenly an endagered, bullied minority, after every family who could afford it (that includes moderate people with turkish background as well) fled the area after it went to sh**: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/debatten/integration/rassismus-das-schweigen-der-schulen-ueber-deutschenfeindlichkeit-11056390.html

Heck... I'll deliberately stop looking now because it just gets too depressing the longer you do search for this stuff.


Had a (female) colleague mention today that if things keep going this way (i.e.: in other areas as well), she plans to migrate somewhere safer than Germany when the opportunity arises - not sure if in jest lol.

But I tell you what ... the mood is definitely tipping over here. I don't mean towards violence and I don't mean the fringe. No, i mean the pessimism and resignation displayed by average Joe and Jane (or I guess "Klaus and Tina" as the case may be) over the entire issue. Also worth mentioning... according to recent surveys there were already 38% in favor of Merkel resigning (46,5% against, rest undecided) even before this new Year desaster. (http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/wegen-fluechtlingspolitik-38-prozent-fuer-ruecktritt-merkel-verliert-an-rueckhalt-in-der-bevoelkerung_id_5091850.html) Kinda curious what the next survey will say now.

I.e. You can probably pretty much sum up what most people think nowadays with something along the lines of: "Wir schaffen das, my a**" :/

[Dragon]

Suddenly I'm glad that my country is so crappy that it's not the primary target for refugees and immigrants... That said, we've got our own problems. Poland currently has a bunch of mostly harmless fools for the government, which so far wasn't terrible (despite our minister of defense being mad as a hatter). If your colleague can't afford someplace nice and remote like New Zealand, Poland hasn't quite gone to hell yet.

Anyway, right now, I don't think Merkel has any chance of staying in the office. The question is, who will replace her? The situation in the US isn't nearly as bad, and yet they have Donald Trump, who is not only a serious candidate, but in all likelihood going to win. You speak of pessimism and resignation, but isn't that just what an extremist party needs?

Mind you, I'm not all that concerned with the immigrants themselves, but once an oppressive regime gets in power, they tend to move their goalposts until their atrocities may extend to pretty much everyone. Historically, this included their original supporters in a few cases. They also don't tend to have much of an idea on how to actually run a country. So while I am not fond of Wahhabis coming here and setting up tribal structures just like in their home countries, electing someone who will sic the military on them is a bad idea no matter what, in spite of popular applause such a move might bring them.

[Col.Hornet]

Suddenly I'm glad that my country is so crappy that it's not the primary target for refugees and immigrants... That said, we've got our own problems. Poland currently has a bunch of mostly harmless fools for the government, which so far wasn't terrible (despite our minister of defense being mad as a hatter). If your colleague can't afford someplace nice and remote like New Zealand, Poland hasn't quite gone to hell yet.

True enough. Our welfare system sucks that much that even some of our own people can't achieve a proper support from the state structures. So the lazybones who count on easy welfare money and benefits and that everyone will bow to their wishes will get a cold shower and likely leave faster then they came here. Try to cause trouble and the police or football hooligans will roll over them <I don't know which option would be worse for them>

 But those who are really interested in starting a new life, work and assimilation shouldn't have more problems then an ordinary Pole has <Ok, except the language. That one is pretty hard>. I already have one Syrian family in my neighbourhood. They came here in 2013 and started a business nearby. A restaurant which serves the most delicious lamb I've ever eaten .

So for now we have a natural barrier that protects us from being flooded by people who won't integrate. I've already posted many times that I'm against massive, uncontrolled migration to Europe. But it was never actually based on some dumb xenophobia. It's not the skin colour that concerns me. It's about standards. Some behavioural patterns and customs which are practised in their Middle-Eastern and African homelands, here will be unforgivable. But allow a large group of people who can follow such code, let them settle together in densely populated areas, create enclaves and the situation can get ugly, as we've just seen. I would never tolerate a guy who thinks that women should be stoned for adultery or thinks that you should get killed for blasphemy. Or arrogant as***le who thinks that I will change my behaviour in my own home to suit his views.There is no place for such thinking here. Maybe Europeans were doing some nasty things in the past <like burning heretics and "witches"> but we got rid of that crap hundreds of years ago.

TL:DR

People who are indeed interested in integrating and working should have no problems with us but lazy idlers who came to drain welfare will starve here. And we will not tolerate any kind of aggression against us, women especially.

[Mika]

I expect you to be at the border, rifle in hand and ready to shoot, if and when your country decides to close its borders completely. Personally, I do not want this blood on my hands.

I just read this one. You know, that is what I'll actually be doing if push comes to shove. The same applies for Baltic countries, don't know whether military service is mandatory in Poland any more?

Curiously, the reason Finns go through this has nothing to do with immigration, and all with the big old neighboring R. However, I suppose those who served as military police may get some extra service if police requests assistance and you happen to live close by. The police has been complaining lately about the lack of resources and about their personal safety when entering the reception centers when there's a bunch of dudes wrestling and only two of you. So far there have been no casualties (meaning broken bones, knife cuts or something similar) on either side.

Then again, Finnish culture is considerably more physical than Central European, and the amount of martial artists (and firearms) among the general population tends to become as a surprise. Not to mention 90 % of men have served in the Defence Forces.

[666maslo666]

I dont believe you need to shoot live ammo to protect the border, rubber bullets, tasers and tear gas works very well. Especially in conjuction with a good fence. You can also let them breach and then simply catch and deport them back. Hungary managed to successfully defend its fence using these measures only.

But yes, if the above is not enough, live ammo is an option - because if such measures really become necessary, then the scale is on the level of regular invasion. And you can certainly respond to invasion with deadly force.

[Col.Hornet]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b1b_1452579086#MAKhVP9YE6MMCe0m.99

Also. An interesting discussion from our TV.

[The E]

Frankly... i was not aware of city parts in major cities that are in the hand of huge family/clan structures (including their own "justices of peace" that pass sentences in circumvention of the official German legal system) where the police avoids going unless in overwhelming force before i started digging. (Although not surprising as I don t even live in the same federal states and not in a major city either.) And those above publications aren't right wing lunatic, rather the contrary, Tania Kambouri. a German policewoman who is a former greek immigrant and Kirsten Heisig, a quite hard working judge for juvenile crimes (dead by now, supposedly suicide, ... coincidentially whether it was suicide is still controversial - and that was about 5 years ago where she laid a finger on pretty much exactly the issues we see exploding now - mad lol).

You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

Anyway, right now, I don't think Merkel has any chance of staying in the office. The question is, who will replace her? The situation in the US isn't nearly as bad, and yet they have Donald Trump, who is not only a serious candidate, but in all likelihood going to win. You speak of pessimism and resignation, but isn't that just what an extremist party needs?

A majority of the german public (a slim one, but a majority nonetheless) is in favour of letting her stay in office until the next elections. When those elections come, it is almost guaranteed that CDU/CSU will remain the strongest faction (according to statistics published today); there's a fascinating thing in play where the people who disagree with Merkel's politics the strongest don't actually vote, making their displeasure rather irrelevant when it comes to shaping politics in Germany. No, barring some yet unforeseen shakeup, Merkel is pretty much guaranteed to remain Chancellor after the 2017 elections.

So for now we have a natural barrier that protects us from being flooded by people who won't integrate. I've already posted many times that I'm against massive, uncontrolled migration to Europe. But it was never actually based on some dumb xenophobia. It's not the skin colour that concerns me. It's about standards. Some behavioural patterns and customs which are practised in their Middle-Eastern and African homelands, here will be unforgivable. But allow a large group of people who can follow such code, let them settle together in densely populated areas, create enclaves and the situation can get ugly, as we've just seen. I would never tolerate a guy who thinks that women should be stoned for adultery or thinks that you should get killed for blasphemy. Or arrogant as***le who thinks that I will change my behaviour in my own home to suit his views.There is no place for such thinking here. Maybe Europeans were doing some nasty things in the past <like burning heretics and "witches"> but we got rid of that crap hundreds of years ago.

I did not realize the 1980s were hundreds of years ago, how time flies (TL;DR on that link: A history of the criminalization of marital rape, which in most of Europe happened only from the 1970s onward).

Still though: every single time you think that people from certain cultures cannot be trusted to integrate themselves purely based on their cultural background, you are acting in a xenophobic manner. Accept it, and move on.

I dont believe you need to shoot live ammo to protect the border, rubber bullets, tasers and tear gas works very well. Especially in conjuction with a good fence. You can also let them breach and then simply catch and deport them back. Hungary managed to successfully defend its fence using these measures only.

But yes, if the above is not enough, live ammo is an option - because if such measures really become necessary, then the scale is on the level of regular invasion. And you can certainly respond to invasion with deadly force.

These measures may work now. They will stop working as soon as everyone follows your lead. As mentioned, give climate change and the Sunni/Shia split another decade to simmer along, let's see how effective they are then. There are some big changes on the horizon; it's probably better to work with them now than to try to keep them away for as long as possible.

[The E]

Anyway, right now, I don't think Merkel has any chance of staying in the office. The question is, who will replace her? The situation in the US isn't nearly as bad, and yet they have Donald Trump, who is not only a serious candidate, but in all likelihood going to win. You speak of pessimism and resignation, but isn't that just what an extremist party needs?

A majority of the german public (a slim one, but a majority nonetheless) is in favour of letting her stay in office until the next elections. When those elections come, it is almost guaranteed that CDU/CSU will remain the strongest faction (according to statistics published today); there's a fascinating thing in play where the people who disagree with Merkel's politics the strongest don't actually vote, making their displeasure rather irrelevant when it comes to shaping politics in Germany. No, barring some yet unforeseen shakeup, Merkel is pretty much guaranteed to remain Chancellor after the 2017 elections.

Let me repeat this, it's important: The people who are disagreeing with current politics the most are also refusing to actually work within the system to make their voices heard. It's all well and good to disagree with the way the country is run, but if you're refusing to use the easiest method available to get things changed, what exactly are you doing?

[Mikes]

Frankly... i was not aware of city parts in major cities that are in the hand of huge family/clan structures (including their own "justices of peace" that pass sentences in circumvention of the official German legal system) where the police avoids going unless in overwhelming force before i started digging. (Although not surprising as I don t even live in the same federal states and not in a major city either.) And those above publications aren't right wing lunatic, rather the contrary, Tania Kambouri. a German policewoman who is a former greek immigrant and Kirsten Heisig, a quite hard working judge for juvenile crimes (dead by now, supposedly suicide, ... coincidentially whether it was suicide is still controversial - and that was about 5 years ago where she laid a finger on pretty much exactly the issues we see exploding now - mad lol).

You do know that the only way to get rid of these lawless zones is to switch to an actual police state, with police at every corner and informants in every house, yes? Good.

State authority has its limits, deliberately so. As a consequence, things like these will be unavoidable.

Interesting discussion tactic ...

So your answer to the very real issue of basically looking the other way and allowing certain crimes by certain ethnic groups go pretty much unchallenged/unopposed, effectively leading to large criminal structures over the years that become the de facto unchallenged law in certain city areas, is to say "uh that's just how it is unless you want a police state?"

What nonsense. The police is actually doing a pretty good job fighting crime in general as it is, EXCEPT in this area/ethnic group - and for no other reason than because it is POLITICALLY difficult to fight it the same way as all other crime is being fought. If you try, you run the immediate risk of being publically shamed as "nazi" and/or "islamophobe" (Why do you think it took so long until anyone spoke up even about the whole thing in Cologne? It didn't even make the news for 5 days until it was crystal clear it was too big to simply let it slide and you could mention it without getting batted by the instant "nazi club" in reply) on the one hand and on the other run the real risk of getting very real and very personal death threats to yourself and your family, by the group you are trying to police.

Seriously ... I'm not new to these forums and it's not the first time I see you in a discussion and I know you can argue this point better than with a simple exaggeration that happens to miss the entire point of the issue so badly.

I guess you don't speak German and hence did not follow up on those links/vids I posted earlier.