Author Topic: New Year in Cologne, Germany  (Read 59308 times)

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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Cool, call America and tell them they've solved their illegal immigration problems.

Indeed, America is a concrete example of what I said. By far the most important reason why America hasnt solved its illegal immigration problem is because a huge part of US politicians do not really want to solve it. There are Democrats that see strict border security as a sign of racism and like to import future voters in mass numbers. Then there are Republicans that like cheap labor for big business or have an anti-government attitude in general. If the US at least tried to solve their illegal immigration problems, it could easily do so. But it does not even try.
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Offline Mikes

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
It is fairly easy. Any modern country can easily choose to secure the borders, similarly to what Hungary does, and only spend a miniscule fraction of its GDP on it. A bunch of migrants have no chance against organized police or army. The only thing lacking is political will to do so. Claiming otherwise is just defeatism speaking, IMHO. Border security is one of the most basic functions of any sovereign state.

How long do you think a the German government would last if there were starving/dying people in front of their borders in masse and all those pictures went through the press? So yes.... in theory you could close the borders and prevent anyone from coming in. In practive it's not only a matter of the "political will" lacking... it's rather a matter of it being politically rather impossible/suicide to do so. Aside from the double issue of "Germany" of all countries "erecting a wall" (again!?!?) or something similar to secure borders. I.e. it was never a "viable" option politically. Not for any party that would like to remain in power anyways. Possibly that will change at some point if conditions within the country get worse.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Indeed, America is a concrete example of what I said. By far the most important reason why America hasnt solved its illegal immigration problem is because a huge part of US politicians do not really want to solve it. There are Democrats that see strict border security as a sign of racism and like to import future voters in mass numbers. Then there are Republicans that like cheap labor for big business or have an anti-government attitude in general. If the US at least tried to solve their illegal immigration problems, it could easily do so. But it does not even try.
From what I've seen, illegal immigration is not seen as a "problem" in itself by most. It's a peculiar situation, really, which took me a while to understand. It looks like in the US, that those people are there illegally doesn't necessarily mean they're not wanted. Indeed, they are quite important for the economy and politics. Strangely enough, nobody seems to think about legalizing their status, either. It looks like the niche they occupy is rather unique and, at this point, calculated into how the country runs.

I'm not sure whether the US could cut off their flow completely, but it'd likely be possible if the negatives of illegal immigration actually outweighed positives. It seems that it isn't so, however. Apparently, having a cheap labor force that has few rights, is big on keeping itself "off the record" and is willing to accept much worse conditions than full citizens is something that is, on balance, benefits the US.

Well, we could use the manpower.
If only they contributed to the "manpower" instead of weighing down the welfare system... The reason for the above situation is that the US, unlike the EU, lacks much of the social welfare system that the immigrants in Europe are counting on. In the Land of the Free you're free to, among other things, to lie down and starve to death if you don't feel like working. Most EU countries will not allow you to do that (or, as is the case with Poland, make a token effort to appear that they won't :) ). In the US, you pay for everything, including most things that are "free" (that is, paid for with taxes) around here. That means you can't survive for long without some kind of work. Loans are also much more of a factor in the US economy than in the EU countries (my parents, for example, managed to survive for their entire lives almost without taking any loans outside the family at all. It'd have to be a much larger and richer family for it to work in the US, and that's saying something in my case). In that case, the immigrants are forced to find jobs, contributing to workforce. EU countries have no such pressure, or at least it's much less than in the US. On the other hand, this means being poor and jobless sucks much less in the EU than in the US.

At least, that's my impression of how it works. Any actual denizens of the Land of the Free are free to correct me. :)

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Quote
If only they contributed to the "manpower" instead of weighing down the welfare system...

They do!

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
They do!

That piece didn't make any sense. Anyone with a brain who's ever followed debates or discussions about refugees and immigration knows that simply conflating the two is stupid, so it's especially eyeroll-worthy when an editorial board of 19 professionals does so. Refugees are a boon because statistics say that immigration is a boon? :rolleyes: I don't claim to know whether they can be a boon or not, but that's not how you conclude it one way or another.

Seriously, I thought everyone must have learned the difference between immigrants, refugees and asylum-seekers like 10 years ago already, but I guess not.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Yeah, that article makes one claim in the title, then discusses a completely different issue in the body (notice how the word "refugees" appears only in the title). Either a textbook case of non sequitur or a deliberate attempt at misdirection. The problem is with refugees, not with immigrants. My tangent about the US and immigration could probably be summarized as "Illegal immigrants in the US are actual immigrants, not refugees". That said, had I stated it that way, nobody would've understood the point. :)

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
They do!

That piece didn't make any sense. Anyone with a brain who's ever followed debates or discussions about refugees and immigration knows that simply conflating the two is stupid, so it's especially eyeroll-worthy when an editorial board of 19 professionals does so. Refugees are a boon because statistics say that immigration is a boon? :rolleyes: I don't claim to know whether they can be a boon or not, but that's not how you conclude it one way or another.

Seriously, I thought everyone must have learned the difference between immigrants, refugees and asylum-seekers like 10 years ago already, but I guess not.

It's more complicated then that.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Offline Dragon

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Good article. Here's a somewhat more condensed take on that :):


Also, it's one of the few places in which I agree with a more "politically correct" term of "irregular immigrants" instead of the more common "illegal immigrants". The latter is, in all likelihood, an import from the US, where it is appropriate due to much stricter immigration policy. In EU, the people usually described with that term not really "illegal" (though many people with they'd be), nor does that group have much in common with the US brand of illegal immigrants.

BTW, I found it a bit funny that the US still officially sticks to the term "alien", despite the term almost universally bringing the "little green men from Mars" image to mind these days (or a hideous monster bursting out of someone's chest, take your pick) :).

 

Offline Mikes

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
(or a hideous monster bursting out of someone's chest, take your pick) :).

Which it is of course doing without the hosts consent, causing severe bodily harm without being a licensed doctor, hence making this famous alien also an illegal alien :P

Guess we're lucky Merkel didn't invite those into Germany ... lol.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 06:39:11 am by Mikes »

 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
that's a suspiciously happy asylum seeker there dragon
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Offline karajorma

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
that's a suspiciously happy asylum seeker there dragon

She hasn't been turned down yet.
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Offline Mika

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Quote
How long do you think a the German government would last if there were starving/dying people in front of their borders in masse and all those pictures went through the press? So yes.... in theory you could close the borders and prevent anyone from coming in. In practive it's not only a matter of the "political will" lacking... it's rather a matter of it being politically rather impossible/suicide to do so. Aside from the double issue of "Germany" of all countries "erecting a wall" (again!?!?) or something similar to secure borders. I.e. it was never a "viable" option politically. Not for any party that would like to remain in power anyways. Possibly that will change at some point if conditions within the country get worse.

Then on the other hand, here in the North, it is pretty darn frustrating that we are doing our job of keeping the Schengen security checks on and have a long history of doing so with Russians - make no mistake, there would be a lot more Russians here had we not taken good care of the immigration permissions. But suddenly, for the first time in like three hundred years, it is the Western border that sucks, and it sucks because Sweden doesn't uphold the Schengen treaty. And Sweden didn't uphold it because Denmark didn't. Who didn't uphold it because Germany didn't and so on and so on (European politics 101)...

Not to mention that it is very important that those EU countries that are next to Russia remain internally stable. Otherwise, you are open for all sorts of shenanigans from the Bear. And trust me on this one, they will take those opportunities. The "refugees" in current quantities are really becoming an internal stability issue, which is very dangerous around these parts of the world. The current bunch we have we can deal with (especially if 30 % remain), but more of them will not work and will trigger massive protests.
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
They do!

Id like to see studies concerning immigrants specifically from MENA countries before I believe any of that. And stratified by education. Sure, some immigration does contribute positively to the economy, but I dont think migrants coming to Europe currently in mass numbers will be one of those. Not all immigrants are the same or interchangeable.

There is also a question of what is it that we want from immigrants, economically speaking. Merely not burdening the welfare system is a very low standard to use, IMHO. What we should really seek is for immigrants to produce similar economic output than the average citizen, in order to not depress GDP per capita. That is a higher standard to meet.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 02:37:09 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline The E

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Oh hey, maslo, look: The UK is listening to you!

TL;DR: Any non-EU immigrant in the UK earning less than 35000 GBP will be denied settlement and deported.

Never mind that a good portion of the nursing staff in the UK falls under that category. Never mind that the median income in the UK is just 25k GBP. Never mind that most of the people affected by this rule aren't welfare tourists, but rather people who came to the UK with the explicit intent of working there. This will surely improve matters in the UK drastically.
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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Look, the UK is a country that somehow allows housing developers to build houses on floodplains without anyone in the whole process questioning them. I don't think we can look to their government for standards of human decency, kindness, intelligence or common sense.  Removing the very people that social security relies upon to function lies within that.


 
Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Look, the UK is a country that somehow allows housing developers to build houses on floodplains without anyone in the whole process questioning them.

Quoth the Dutchman!
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
I see this more a brinksmanship tactic from the Tories. They propose something fundamentally bad for the country but which appeals to the apes capable of being trained to put a cross in the correct place demographic. Everyone else is horrified by the sheer level of stupidity involved and complains about it. The Tories then backtrack but act like it's not their fault that Johnny Racist has to live next door to a family who earn more then them but happen to be the wrong skin colour.

Notice Cameron is basically doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons with Brexit.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
Oh hey, maslo, look: The UK is listening to you!

TL;DR: Any non-EU immigrant in the UK earning less than 35000 GBP will be denied settlement and deported.

Never mind that a good portion of the nursing staff in the UK falls under that category. Never mind that the median income in the UK is just 25k GBP. Never mind that most of the people affected by this rule aren't welfare tourists, but rather people who came to the UK with the explicit intent of working there. This will surely improve matters in the UK drastically.

Now this is an excellent idea indeed! However the limit is higher than I would like, any earnings higher than average income should be acceptable, IMHO. But other than that I think this will help UK to continue to reap economic benefits from skilled immigration while at the same time protect UK citizens against negative effects of unregulated immigration, one of which is importing poverty in mass numbers. Best of both worlds.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: New Year in Cologne, Germany
And with that you've basically proven how clueless you actually are about immigration. This move would actually cripple the NHS almost immediately. Not to mention the absolute idiocy of losing almost every single nursing home worker (seriously, almost all of them are immigrants) in a country that already has a problem with an ageing population.
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