Author Topic: Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting  (Read 5402 times)

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Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
I mentioned before that in Broodwar I've never encountered (in my experience) a computer team use siege-tank mode on thier tanks to break through defense.

In starcraft, they do it all the time (Starcraft AI is much more advanced than Broodwar)

For those of you just coming now, this is what Corhellion told me:
Quote

No way man, if you're protoss against say...2 Terran, 3 Zergs and 1 toss, you're fubared, EXTREMELY!, here's how:


To meet his challenge, and to exceed it, I set 6 computers to the specifications he said (2 terran, 3 zerg, 1 protoss) and I set another computer (me vs. 7 computers) to "random"...

I played the same map on Broodwar and Starcraft, and I set the teams the same (i left it at 'random' for the 7th computer on both starcraft and broodwar)...

Corhellion, and anyone else not a believer... 1 day later i give you:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Stealth vs. 7 computers STARCRAFT
Stealth vs. 7 computers BROODWAR

Stealth  -  Protoss
Computer  -  Zerg
Computer  -  Zerg
Computer  -  Zerg
Computer  -  Terran
Computer  -  Terran
Computer  -  Protoss
Computer  -  Random

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Note that the one of me and 7 comps on Broodwar is the same one in one of my earlier posts on this thread.

0wnj00 :)


EDIT:Took a few screenshots to show principles I've mentioned earlier but not demonstrated yet

You can see in red the 'semi-circles' i had talked about which i've found work best in defense, and in blue you can see the 'range' of the pylons to energize the cannons... if one pylon goes out, most of the cannons under its range are energized by another pylon close by.  Four pylons can manage all of them, and if you lose one you've only lost one or two pylons instead of the 10 or 11 that fit under it

You can see when the carriers also do this it works best
« Last Edit: August 04, 2002, 06:28:52 pm by 594 »

 
Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
I've tried it, and I beat 7 comps aswell :)

I'll send the replay to stealth so he can look at it.

I've seen this countless times on the Fast Money map, the top comp always messes up when they try to harvest gas, they sorta freeze up and don't do anymore work, the only protoss on that map got the top spot, so I got lucky!

stealth I'll send it to you, when you get on the MSN.

Cor

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
hahaha, no Corhellion... you said there was NO WAY i could take on 6 computers, and hey, whaddya know... I TOOK ON 7!!!

(i met all your 'species' requirements, plus a 'random'... just for luck :D )

oh, and i beat it on both Starcraft AND Broodwar!!! (Starcraft AI uses siege tanks, BW AI doesn't)


you have gotten 0wned... NOW APOLOGIZE FOR THINKING I COULDN"T DO IT!!! :)

lolo

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Quote
Originally posted by Corhellion

I've seen this countless times on the Fast Money map, the top comp always messes up when they try to harvest gas, they sorta freeze up and don't do anymore work, the only protoss on that map got the top spot, so I got lucky!




yeah, but "you got lucky"... that's why you beat 7 computers!

Look at my very first post in the thread, and download the replay posted there... in that map they all messed up, so it was easy to win, and if they did the same thing for you (which you say in the quote that they did) then it's easy for you to win too!

That's why i tried again and this time everything went better (they actually attacked more than once lol :) )


I think the reason they mess up, (it's happened to me many times too) is because the maps are edited to make gas and minerals so close they can't handle it...

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
The AI was smart enough to steal your Arbiter with mind control. If only they understood concentration of force. Then they'd be challenging.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
yeah, i mean, if i were the ocmputer and was attacked by 2 dozen carriers, i'd take control of at least one, and then put them as many as i could (at least half a dozen) in a stasis field for 2 minutes!

actually they're pretty smart... i did this today, but i alt-tabbed a lot to talk on AIM, etc.  so therefore i really wasn't concentrating


at the very end, they came with like 15 queens, and did 'spawn broodlings' on half of my probes and zealots :) lol

pretty good strategy

i also like the way computers work with each other, and attack together, etc.

post some replays here so i can look at them :)

 
Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Although in both of your 'tutorials' you are playying a money map.  Where yes, protoss are the strongest.  But on a non money map, i don't think they are.  I think most people have forgotten how to play a normal map, and have become obsessed with making 100 zealots to win a money map.  I've only started playying on battlenet recently, and before that i have a lot of experience agaisnt the computer.  But a money map against the computer is simple, since you don't have to bother to move to a different mineral site since you'll virtually never run out.  On a normal map, 7 computers would beat you because they are very good at getting the balance of expandind and keeping up a defense.  Pretty soon, all the minerals sites will be taken up, and you'll be starved out of your base and killed. :nod:

"Your cynicism appauls me Collosus - I have ten thousand officers and crew willing to die for pants !"

"Go to red alert!"
"Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb"

 
Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Quote
Originally posted by beatspete
Although in both of your 'tutorials' you are playying a money map.  Where yes, protoss are the strongest.  But on a non money map, i don't think they are.  I think most people have forgotten how to play a normal map, and have become obsessed with making 100 zealots to win a money map.  I've only started playying on battlenet recently, and before that i have a lot of experience agaisnt the computer.  But a money map against the computer is simple, since you don't have to bother to move to a different mineral site since you'll virtually never run out.  On a normal map, 7 computers would beat you because they are very good at getting the balance of expandind and keeping up a defense.  Pretty soon, all the minerals sites will be taken up, and you'll be starved out of your base and killed. :nod:


true... really
--- none ---

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Quote
Originally posted by beatspete
Although in both of your 'tutorials' you are playying a money map.  Where yes, protoss are the strongest.  But on a non money map, i don't think they are.  


No... Protoss are always the strongsest, no matter what map you're playing... but what you should say is that on a non-money map they are not practical...

Protoss are the most powerful, but they are by far the most expensive.  For example, a marine costs 50 minerals, a zealot costs 100 minerals, and a zergling costs only 25 minerals;  BUT, two marines can't take on a zealot (protoss is more powerful) but a marine can't take on two zerglings either, proving that the order in which the 'powerfulness' of the species go is Zerg --> Terran --> Protoss.

But power always costs more, since Zerg are the cheapest but weakest, and protoss are the most expensive, but most powerful.  In a non-money map (which i grew up playing)... walling is a necessity, not a luxury.  A Barracks and supply depot, with four marines in a bunker right behind it, can take on dozens of marines without needing repair.  The same walling technique can be used with any species, but Terran has got the best defense, and so therefore is the best at the walling technique too.

Remember also that since protoss is strongest they also have very strong defense (i'm talking in non-money maps here)... a photon cannon can take out a marine in two hits.  If five marines are attacking it (no upgrades on either) the photon cannon will manage to take all five of them out, [even though] the photon cannon only costs 150 minerals while the five marines cost 250, almost double the price, and after a few minutes the cannon will have full shields again!

In a money map i generally play either as Terran or Zerg.  Zerg are fast, and Terran are fast and have good defense too.

So you bring out a very important point beatspete, beating a computer in a money map would be much harder, if not near impossible.  The only thing to do (which i've done before) is just as soon as the game starts secure your main base, and also more minerals (usually in a non-money map, like Big Game Hunters, Lost Temple, etc. it's right outside your base) and then build nothing but defense... don't build too MUCH defense, just enough to successfully hold them off.  Then let your minerals and vespene grow.   Build marines/zerglings slowly (always keep more than 300 minerals available in case you have to quickly pump out more units if your defense is breached)... and then eventually, you'll have used up all your minerals.  (this is a good thing, because it means the computer has used all its minerals up already too)... they'll send virtually every unit they have at you... i've even had a computer throw about 30 drones at my wall, but it won't work... now keep the wall up, instead of cutting it down (bad idea, in case they have more units left) fly (with overlords, or dropships (much more expensive)) as many marines/zerglings/a few hydralisks into their base as you can.  Take out their drones first.  The drones/probes/SCVs (depending on species) will be out of minerals, so they'll just be sitting there.  Take out all the workers first (probes/SCVs/drones) so that they can't repair anything/warp anything in/build anything somewhere else.  Once that's done, even if your entire wave is almost destroyed, it doesn't matter, because you've taken all the computer's stuff out, and now even if you rush with workers you're likely to win!  One very good method i usually do is drop 4 lurkers behind their base by their workers, and burrow them.  Lurkers have attacks that keep going, and in the 'cramped' space where all the workers are, after 10-15 seconds they'll all be destroyed!  (also, when burrowed, lurkers are invisible, so remember this tactic can be used against you too)

Very smart thinking though beatspete... i don't even think i've played a long game on a non-money map with more than about 3 computers :) lol

I'll have to try someday :D


~Stealth~

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Stealth vs. 5 comps non-money map

Slightly harder than it looks!
I had some pretty good defense, and I ALMOST had them, (i had a nuke ready, and 7 dropships full of marines and firebats... that alone would've wiped out 2 of them!)

 
Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
I playyed a game against 4, then 5 computers today on a money map, using each of the 3 races (but not for each).
Easy .
The most difficult part was setting up a defense early enough strong enough to withstand the initial onslaught, then after that it was just a case of a fleet of battlecruisers/guardians/carriers :D.
I'll try 6 tommorow, and 7 if i have time.
The zerg were hardest to set up a defense for, but i was churning out zerglings pretty fast at the beggining of the game, and once i held of the first wave, i built a load of sunkens and never really got anything significant after that.

I can see what you mean about the AI not expanding, one terran team only attacked me once with some marines, then sat in its base doing nothing.  Another terran team build some tanks but never researched seige mode so i didnt have much trouble with them.

"Your cynicism appauls me Collosus - I have ten thousand officers and crew willing to die for pants !"

"Go to red alert!"
"Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb"

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Quote
Originally posted by beatspete

I can see what you mean about the AI not expanding, one terran team only attacked me once with some marines, then sat in its base doing nothing.  Another terran team build some tanks but never researched seige mode so i didnt have much trouble with them.


it depends what map you're playing on... a standard map has 8 clusters of minerals, each 1500, and one vespene geyser, with 5000.  Usually they have one expansion nearby


why not post some of your replays so we can look!

depends, one time i attacked a terran base with about 5 bcs, and they had about 2 dozen siege tanks set up around their FACTORY! :) lol

like, they didn't move, as soon as they produced them, they sat in siege mode :) lol

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
nuke in slow mo


nuke in reg-fast speed


from this replay... check out the AI in this game... they acted SO WEIRD!!!

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Question: say one is to lazy to check the replay, could another tell one what was so wierd bout another's ai?
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Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Answer:  One too lazy to check the replay would have to take the other one's replay and watch it regardless of how lazy he/she is!

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
touche'!
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 
Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth


it depends what map you're playing on...


Yeah, i think that may have something to do with it.  I was playying the computer on "the fastest map ever", ie the one where the minerals are put right next to your command center through a hack...  I think it confused the computer.  Though it only seems to happen to terran, protoss are fine, zerg build hydra's and lurkers normally but rarely air units.
Ofcourse, the computer isnt really any good at that map, since it doesnt know how to defend against the sort of situations for mass attack/defense the map presents.

"Your cynicism appauls me Collosus - I have ten thousand officers and crew willing to die for pants !"

"Go to red alert!"
"Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb"

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
yeah, any edited-money map the computer has trouble with...

 
Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
I'll try playying the comp on BGH, the only origional money map from blizzard.  Although the computer still won't be at its best, since it won't realise it doesnt need to expand much, and it will spend to much time deffending its bases.


Edit: apparently BGH isnt an official map.

And the cpu beat me :sigh:
« Last Edit: August 08, 2002, 09:37:48 am by 671 »

"Your cynicism appauls me Collosus - I have ten thousand officers and crew willing to die for pants !"

"Go to red alert!"
"Are you sure sir? It does mean changing the bulb"

 

Offline Stealth

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Starcraft/Broodwar Replay posting
yeah, well i always thought Big game Hunters was supposed to be like "The Hunters" but with more money, hence the "Big..." in the name...

I thought some user made it, cause it says it's "By Popular Demand..."... lol

that's the funnest map to play comps on, cause tehre's SO MANY minerals! :D

i think i'll play right now in fact